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Question: What type of pool payouts do you prefer?
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Author Topic: [40+ PH] SlushPool (slushpool.com); World's First Mining Pool  (Read 3931388 times)
vs3
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May 21, 2013, 08:22:53 PM
 #8561

You read way too much into his answer.  His answer is the correct answer.  It may be too technical, but it is what it is.  What he is trying to say is that because of the way Slush's pool works, your payouts can vary tremendously, especially with a slow miner.

I really didn't see him insulting you in his post, it looked to me like he was legitimately trying to help.
Yes the answer was correct but he used an attitude so he started defence mechanism in him... That didn't help him to understand it.

Neither harm nor insult was meant in my previous post. Apologies to those that got offended.

The issue is that scoring is not explained in a "for newbies" language anywhere, and on top of that the web site reports "shares" which confuses people to think that "number of shares" matters. Which it doesn't - it is the score that does, but your score is not published on the stats. And what's even worse - the pool' home page speaks about "shares" and has a the formula, but everything is in a rather vague form - neither explained properly and technically correctly, nor simplified enough, and then it forwards you to a post on the forum with even more technical language ... I can understand why someone can get completely confused.

Then people ask on the forum, and we keep repeating the same stuff over and over and over - this very question has been discussed several times in the last 10-15 pages alone. But people are impatient and won't go through more than a few pages, and when they don't find the answer quickly they ask on the forum.
And we repeat that stuff over and over again (which may have to do with the "attitude" factor). Unfortunately the Search option is not really an option for beginners either - knowing what to search for is half of the answer.

If Slush is willing to put a Wiki page about those questions - I'd be glad to contribute and add content. I can probably add also a few simple charts to illustrate the scoring - as they say "picture is worth a thousand words".

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May 21, 2013, 08:36:25 PM
 #8562

Who told me that I'm an idiot when I say that this might be a problem? Will he apologise?

It wasn't me and i don't remember such post from you, but it doesn't matter too much in this case:
All pools are using the same version 8.1 right now as there is just no other choice, so all of them get the same (similar) delay and all of them had increased chance for invalid blocks (reason for the global bad luck lately?), so it was not a problem for the Slush's pool only.
Well yes and no. At least one admin did a fix the same day. But I think that it was more then one...

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1976.msg2181326;topicseen#msg2181326

And no at that time I was called something else and I don't fell the need to find it. I think it was a spoiled child or something like that. It doesn't mater... Nice to see that I was right on everything technical...

Sorry if this is a dumb question but I start at the beginning of every round because I leave my miner running 24/7 and my score goes up and up and up and my reward goes down not sure why there is an inverted relationship between the two. I know I have a slow hash rate but I've got new mining equipment coming so I figured start slow to learn the process.  Huh

Stupid question vs 2.0 I take it that the lack of response to my question is a sign of the complete stupidity of the question or I'm being ignored so could someone please let me know were to find the answer thanks
I would answered you if I noticed you. Can you tell me your hashrate?
Lets just say not much higher than a cpu, not doing for coins right now doing to learn how it works and if it is worth the effort. understanding the beast before I try to feed it. it's around 50. I dont quit during the block and mine the whole time, I've had over a hundred shares one moment ( yes I know very low) and have a very small payout (.000078489)ish and then the next time I have 54 shares and a lower score and end up with .0002345.. only differences are that the first block took longer and I had a huge score and the second block only took like a half hour and a much smaller score.
Well 50 is not much so you have a bigger variance. You are doing less then a share per minute right? On a long block score is decaying faster so you will get much less if you don't send shares in in at the weary end and much more if you do. You can't just look at the shares. You must look at the score to. You can find total score on a statistic page and score for your miner at account page. From time to time this score will get reseated and sometimes some errors happens. Now that Slush is back I'm sure they will get fixed but if they don't get fixed till 50 conformations you might write something in this forum... But error at your speed would probably look like 0.00000000 a big variances are normal. When you get more speed you will see much less difference but still if you end mining before the end of a block difference will be big.
I average around one or to shares a minute, but sometimes the thing says 450 shares found or 30 shares found and my score has been as high as 30mil with the total score being a few hundred mil so it's more of a ratio of my score vs the total score as well as the number of shares. trying to figure this out and the fact that i'm not a math type nor a programmer it takes a little longer for me to grasp it.

http://www.sgbullion.com "bullion for the little guy and we take bitcoin" To donate to my favorite cause 1MXbEx3JpHSfrFmnjfaom9JdsPFuy8PD4g
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May 21, 2013, 08:44:18 PM
 #8563

so could someone just explain it to me in english or am I just to assume that stupid people like me should not do this.

The duration of each round varies based on luck. Sometimes we are unlucky and it takes 4 hours to finish a block. Other times, it takes 2 minutes.

As an extreme example, let's say your hash rate is very slow, so that it takes you 3 minutes to submit one share. Well, if the pool is lucky and finds a block in 2 minutes, you wouldn't even have submitted your one share yet. Therefore, pool says you did 0 work, and so you get 0 payout. On the other hand, someone has a very fast hash rate, and so in those 2 minutes they submitted 100 shares. Then they will obviously be paid for that work.

I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.
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May 21, 2013, 09:00:02 PM
 #8564

I average around one or to shares a minute, but sometimes the thing says 450 shares found or 30 shares found and my score has been as high as 30mil with the total score being a few hundred mil so it's more of a ratio of my score vs the total score as well as the number of shares. trying to figure this out and the fact that i'm not a math type nor a programmer it takes a little longer for me to grasp it.
Sorry but no. If you are submitting 2 shares on average you are at 100+. You might get them sometimes but on average you shouldn't.

About the score. Every share gets a time value and is added to score. More time the round takes the higher is the time value. And that is the only ratio that is important. Total score vs your score. EDIT: Forget shares. After being converted to score they are there just as a data for you to see and figure out if something is wrong.

Just adding this. Sometimes it happens that score number becomes extremely big and it needs to be reseated. That is why the score can get smaller during of the round.
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May 21, 2013, 09:09:35 PM
 #8565

Nice to hear there's an ASIC in the pool somewhere! Cheesy How's the blade treating you?

It's great now that I have it up and running smoothly.  I had some wifi networking issues I had to resolve that were interfering with the device.  I primarily mined litecoin before this and never had an issue.  Stratum was hard for me to understand at first being that I have four rigs to keep track of, but I think I have a handle on things now. 

The first few days I didn't trust the blade.  I slept with a fire extinguisher next to my bed lol... there have been some people with hot/melted wires but so far only the chips themselves are hot to the touch, which is by design I believe.  I have a box fan aimed at it and two 120mm case fans.  It's pretty impressive, actually, how well it performs now.

Go on then post a pic - you know you want to - we want to see Smiley

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May 21, 2013, 09:10:08 PM
 #8566

You read way too much into his answer.  His answer is the correct answer.  It may be too technical, but it is what it is.  What he is trying to say is that because of the way Slush's pool works, your payouts can vary tremendously, especially with a slow miner.

I really didn't see him insulting you in his post, it looked to me like he was legitimately trying to help.
Yes the answer was correct but he used an attitude so he started defence mechanism in him... That didn't help him to understand it.

Neither harm nor insult was meant in my previous post. Apologies to those that got offended.

The issue is that scoring is not explained in a "for newbies" language anywhere, and on top of that the web site reports "shares" which confuses people to think that "number of shares" matters. Which it doesn't - it is the score that does, but your score is not published on the stats. And what's even worse - the pool' home page speaks about "shares" and has a the formula, but everything is in a rather vague form - neither explained properly and technically correctly, nor simplified enough, and then it forwards you to a post on the forum with even more technical language ... I can understand why someone can get completely confused.

Then people ask on the forum, and we keep repeating the same stuff over and over and over - this very question has been discussed several times in the last 10-15 pages alone. But people are impatient and won't go through more than a few pages, and when they don't find the answer quickly they ask on the forum.
And we repeat that stuff over and over again (which may have to do with the "attitude" factor). Unfortunately the Search option is not really an option for beginners either - knowing what to search for is half of the answer.

If Slush is willing to put a Wiki page about those questions - I'd be glad to contribute and add content. I can probably add also a few simple charts to illustrate the scoring - as they say "picture is worth a thousand words".

If I was too sensitive I apologize I detected a note of sarcasm that might not have been intended.
I've read most of the other posts and just got a big head ache.
here are my current numbers
96   4.6975   2 minutes shares, score, time since last share
12695448   53   0.00006708 total shares, my submitted shares and my reward for the round from last round. on the statistic page there is nothing about score or total score just shares and total shares and reward. that might be the cause of my confusion. the part that insulted me was the capital letters, bold print and the assumption that I couldn't be asking this question if I had read that stuff already. Again the time is gone that only engineers and math types are mining for coins, I would challenge you to keep up with me in a conversation about my field as well so we are not starting from the same knowledge base and the posts were all greek to me. Also there are over 400 pages in this thread alone, I have a job and a life so it is not a factor of being lazy it is a factor of time and knowledge. I just now know enough to be able to ask a question and this is why I'm starting small without any new investment. Hell i'm still making more than I'm paying out in electric so i'm at a profit.

http://www.sgbullion.com "bullion for the little guy and we take bitcoin" To donate to my favorite cause 1MXbEx3JpHSfrFmnjfaom9JdsPFuy8PD4g
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May 21, 2013, 09:15:06 PM
 #8567

Neither harm nor insult was meant in my previous post. Apologies to those that got offended.

The issue is that scoring is not explained in a "for newbies" language anywhere, and on top of that the web site reports "shares" which confuses people to think that "number of shares" matters. Which it doesn't - it is the score that does, but your score is not published on the stats. And what's even worse - the pool' home page speaks about "shares" and has a the formula, but everything is in a rather vague form - neither explained properly and technically correctly, nor simplified enough, and then it forwards you to a post on the forum with even more technical language ... I can understand why someone can get completely confused.

Then people ask on the forum, and we keep repeating the same stuff over and over and over - this very question has been discussed several times in the last 10-15 pages alone. But people are impatient and won't go through more than a few pages, and when they don't find the answer quickly they ask on the forum.
And we repeat that stuff over and over again (which may have to do with the "attitude" factor). Unfortunately the Search option is not really an option for beginners either - knowing what to search for is half of the answer.

If Slush is willing to put a Wiki page about those questions - I'd be glad to contribute and add content. I can probably add also a few simple charts to illustrate the scoring - as they say "picture is worth a thousand words".
Agree. I think that Slush scoring system is second hardest thing to understand in bitcoin world. Only DGM is harder... Probably adding score to statistic page would help and adding total score to account page would also be a good idea...

But I don't think it will work well just putting wiki up. This is like relativity to someone. Even you or I can't just say that is the reason. We need more data. So someone who doesn't understand the system can't even start looking. It is like thinking that if a object moves with 2 kmh and you are moving on it in same direction with 2 kmh that you are moving with 4 kmh. Well you are not. I know that is what you were learning but you are moving slower do to relativity. And you need to understand a lot of things like time contraction and space dilation to understand this. It is same with Slush method. There are factors that can explain what happened but you need to know what you are looking. So just a wiki... Well you would need a lot of QA and nobody will read it all.
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May 21, 2013, 09:21:55 PM
 #8568

Current server time:    2013-05-21 21:15:14 UTC
Current round started at:   2013-05-21 17:37:11 UTC
Current round duration:   3:38:03
Current shares CDF:   91.74 %
Current Bitcoin block, difficulty:   237245, 11187257
Pool luck (1 day, 7 days, 30 days):   63%, 85%, 98%
Current server load (60 sec average):   676 getwork/s
Total score of current round:   40084623.1075
Shares contributed in current round:   27895725
Hashrate on Stratum interface (30 min average):    8908.839 Ghash/s (98%)
Approx. cluster performance (30 min average):    9083.574 Ghash/s

so this is the top of the stats page right now. if i understand correctly (really i'm not a moron) my reward is related to my total score for the round divided by the total score * reward+bonus so in plane english my current score is 197.354 the total score is 40084623.1075 which might be readjusted from time to time depending on the size of the number, my score is determined according to the phase of the moon the time of day, if the month begins with an R as well as how long I've been mineing how many shares i've donated to the total number of shares contributed in the round. Then my total reward is a function of the total score, my score, total reward plus bonus. Ok then I need to know what the actual (for someone that barely passed algebra but can do stats) formula of how to figure what my score is (where did that number come from) and how to figure what my reward should be. Now I understand that I might not be able to comprehend all of the math but there should be a way to understand were the numbers came from.

http://www.sgbullion.com "bullion for the little guy and we take bitcoin" To donate to my favorite cause 1MXbEx3JpHSfrFmnjfaom9JdsPFuy8PD4g
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May 21, 2013, 09:23:02 PM
 #8569

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If I help you out: 17QatvSdciyv2zsdAbphDEUzST1S6x46c3
References (bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=): 50051.20  50051.100  53668.0  53788.0  53571.0  53571.0  52212.0  50729.0  114804.0  115468  78106  69061  58572  54747
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May 21, 2013, 09:23:39 PM
 #8570

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sgbullion
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May 21, 2013, 09:24:38 PM
 #8571

Neither harm nor insult was meant in my previous post. Apologies to those that got offended.

The issue is that scoring is not explained in a "for newbies" language anywhere, and on top of that the web site reports "shares" which confuses people to think that "number of shares" matters. Which it doesn't - it is the score that does, but your score is not published on the stats. And what's even worse - the pool' home page speaks about "shares" and has a the formula, but everything is in a rather vague form - neither explained properly and technically correctly, nor simplified enough, and then it forwards you to a post on the forum with even more technical language ... I can understand why someone can get completely confused.

Then people ask on the forum, and we keep repeating the same stuff over and over and over - this very question has been discussed several times in the last 10-15 pages alone. But people are impatient and won't go through more than a few pages, and when they don't find the answer quickly they ask on the forum.
And we repeat that stuff over and over again (which may have to do with the "attitude" factor). Unfortunately the Search option is not really an option for beginners either - knowing what to search for is half of the answer.

If Slush is willing to put a Wiki page about those questions - I'd be glad to contribute and add content. I can probably add also a few simple charts to illustrate the scoring - as they say "picture is worth a thousand words".
Agree. I think that Slush scoring system is second hardest thing to understand in bitcoin world. Only DGM is harder... Probably adding score to statistic page would help and adding total score to account page would also be a good idea...

But I don't think it will work well just putting wiki up. This is like relativity to someone. Even you or I can't just say that is the reason. We need more data. So someone who doesn't understand the system can't even start looking. It is like thinking that if a object moves with 2 kmh and you are moving on it in same direction with 2 kmh that you are moving with 4 kmh. Well you are not. I know that is what you were learning but you are moving slower do to relativity. And you need to understand a lot of things like time contraction and space dilation to understand this. It is same with Slush method. There are factors that can explain what happened but you need to know what you are looking. So just a wiki... Well you would need a lot of QA and nobody will read it all.

Ok so it's a bit like quantum mech and that unless you are insane or on some really serious drugs it doesn't make any sense. I can handle that,  but with the formula given in the wiki the data presented on the stat's page doesn't match the data calls in the formula.

http://www.sgbullion.com "bullion for the little guy and we take bitcoin" To donate to my favorite cause 1MXbEx3JpHSfrFmnjfaom9JdsPFuy8PD4g
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May 21, 2013, 09:28:30 PM
 #8572


Actually he is being a lot of help to me understanding what is going on. He might be a real pain in the rear sometimes but he is being more help than some others and at least he didn't ignore the nub trying to understand what the heck is going on instead of just blindly jumping in with my mark 10 fancy mining rig and wining that i'm not making serious bank like I thought I was going to because I didn't bother to learn about what I was doing in the first place. I understand markets and bullion and hardware math and such not so much.

http://www.sgbullion.com "bullion for the little guy and we take bitcoin" To donate to my favorite cause 1MXbEx3JpHSfrFmnjfaom9JdsPFuy8PD4g
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May 21, 2013, 09:32:58 PM
 #8573

INO the reason I can have my miner on 24/7 and still get a zero reward is that my system is so slow it doesn't post a high enough score to be bothered rewarding. Then the next round could have a boat ton of reward because all of the shares that could have been posted in the last round got posted in the next one so between the two it cancels each other out. So I should look at a 20 day moving average maybe as a more accurate way to monitor my success until my hash rate is over 3gh/s If this is accurate maybe the moderator and or slush could post this discussion and summary on the wiki to prevent further frustration and confusion.

http://www.sgbullion.com "bullion for the little guy and we take bitcoin" To donate to my favorite cause 1MXbEx3JpHSfrFmnjfaom9JdsPFuy8PD4g
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May 21, 2013, 09:33:27 PM
 #8574

Ok then I need to know what the actual (for someone that barely passed algebra but can do stats) formula of how to figure what my score is (where did that number come from) and how to figure what my reward should be. Now I understand that I might not be able to comprehend all of the math but there should be a way to understand were the numbers came from.

From https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1976.msg50002#msg50002 :

Matematically said, for every submitted share, pool perform

Code:
score = score + exp(round_time/C)

round_time is count of seconds between "now" and time when round started, C is magic constant which define how fast old shares lose their value. All following calculations are using C=300, but it may be changed in the future to provide the best cheatproof/usability ratio.

And on the end of round, system calculate rewards using formula

Code:
reward = user score / total score * 25
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May 21, 2013, 09:37:08 PM
 #8575


Actually he is being a lot of help to me understanding what is going on. He might be a real pain in the rear sometimes but he is being more help than some others and at least he didn't ignore the nub trying to understand what the heck is going on instead of just blindly jumping in with my mark 10 fancy mining rig and wining that i'm not making serious bank like I thought I was going to because I didn't bother to learn about what I was doing in the first place. I understand markets and bullion and hardware math and such not so much.

Hey sg - nothing against you but thus lucko guy is just a troller - he doesn't even mine here - I'm glad you got some help from him but sorry I just don't like the character - click on his name and read his posts and you may see what I mean.

As far as help for newbies goes - this is the best pool of all. My tips to you when asking for help are:

1) Keep post short and to the point - people switch off with big newbie posts asking for help - if you keep them short and sweet then you'll get loads of help.
2) Search the forum for key words first - such as - NMC mining - if you are interested in that etc.
3) Be polite - this is a good community but coming in with big opinions usually doesn't go down very well...

Welcome to the pool - if you have a specific problem then please post short description - I'm sure you'll get help...

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May 21, 2013, 09:38:10 PM
 #8576

INO the reason I can have my miner on 24/7 and still get a zero reward is that my system is so slow it doesn't post a high enough score to be bothered rewarding. Then the next round could have a boat ton of reward because all of the shares that could have been posted in the last round got posted in the next one so between the two it cancels each other out. So I should look at a 20 day moving average maybe as a more accurate way to monitor my success until my hash rate is over 3gh/s If this is accurate maybe the moderator and or slush could post this discussion and summary on the wiki to prevent further frustration and confusion.
At 50 you shouldn't get 0.00000000. Unless it is a short round. If you got one it is a mistake.
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May 21, 2013, 09:41:12 PM
 #8577

Ok then I need to know what the actual (for someone that barely passed algebra but can do stats) formula of how to figure what my score is (where did that number come from) and how to figure what my reward should be. Now I understand that I might not be able to comprehend all of the math but there should be a way to understand were the numbers came from.

From https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1976.msg50002#msg50002 :

Matematically said, for every submitted share, pool perform

Code:
score = score + exp(round_time/C)

round_time is count of seconds between "now" and time when round started, C is magic constant which define how fast old shares lose their value. All following calculations are using C=300, but it may be changed in the future to provide the best cheatproof/usability ratio.

And on the end of round, system calculate rewards using formula

Code:
reward = user score / total score * 25

I believe that constant C is now 210(don't remember where I read it) but I could be wrong. And last formula is 25+transaction fees
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May 21, 2013, 09:41:33 PM
 #8578

Code:
[quote author=psxboy link=topic=1976.msg2227485#msg2227485 date=1369172007]
[quote author=sgbullion link=topic=1976.msg2227361#msg2227361 date=1369171315]
Ok then I need to know what the actual (for someone that barely passed algebra but can do stats) formula of how to figure what my score is (where did that number come from) and how to figure what my reward should be. Now I understand that I might not be able to comprehend all of the math but there should be a way to understand were the numbers came from.
[/quote]

From [url=https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1976.msg50002#msg50002]https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1976.msg50002#msg50002[/url] :

Matematically said, for every submitted share, pool perform

[code]score = score + exp(round_time/C)

round_time is count of seconds between "now" and time when round started, C is magic constant which define how fast old shares lose their value. All following calculations are using C=300, but it may be changed in the future to provide the best cheatproof/usability ratio.

And on the end of round, system calculate rewards using formula

Code:
reward = user score / total score * 25

[/quote]
huh?? where the hell did C come from like I said quantum Mechanics gave me less of a head ache. and were do you get [/code] what code?

http://www.sgbullion.com "bullion for the little guy and we take bitcoin" To donate to my favorite cause 1MXbEx3JpHSfrFmnjfaom9JdsPFuy8PD4g
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May 21, 2013, 09:45:22 PM
 #8579


Actually he is being a lot of help to me understanding what is going on. He might be a real pain in the rear sometimes but he is being more help than some others and at least he didn't ignore the nub trying to understand what the heck is going on instead of just blindly jumping in with my mark 10 fancy mining rig and wining that i'm not making serious bank like I thought I was going to because I didn't bother to learn about what I was doing in the first place. I understand markets and bullion and hardware math and such not so much.

Hey sg - nothing against you but thus lucko guy is just a troller - he doesn't even mine here - I'm glad you got some help from him but sorry I just don't like the character - click on his name and read his posts and you may see what I mean.

As far as help for newbies goes - this is the best pool of all. My tips to you when asking for help are:

1) Keep post short and to the point - people switch off with big newbie posts asking for help - if you keep them short and sweet then you'll get loads of help.
2) Search the forum for key words first - such as - NMC mining - if you are interested in that etc.
3) Be polite - this is a good community but coming in with big opinions usually doesn't go down very well...

Welcome to the pool - if you have a specific problem then please post short description - I'm sure you'll get help...
I think I've done that, ok he may be a troll but not currently, been an admin understand the head ache but at least he answered me. I think i've been short and to the point. Very happy with slush's pool just want to understand (as best as I am able) what i'm doing and how to monitor what i'm doing. I'm ok if my final answer is "i have no freeking idea what is happening, I basically trust slush, and I'm making some extra money so all is ok." but I follow the adage to never invest in something you dont understand or at least understand how to find answers. I've read the posts and I was impressed how the last hacking incident was solved and I hope to be able to help others later on.

Ah ok sory no clue about html to review
reward=(score/total score)*25+bonus and hash determines how your score is figured. Your score is determined by the guy behind the curtain that I dont want to look at and my shares are unimportant? right?

now did i mention that who's on first Huh

http://www.sgbullion.com "bullion for the little guy and we take bitcoin" To donate to my favorite cause 1MXbEx3JpHSfrFmnjfaom9JdsPFuy8PD4g
psxboy
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May 21, 2013, 09:50:26 PM
 #8580

huh?? where the hell did C come from like I said quantum Mechanics gave me less of a head ache. and were do you get /code what code?

Dude... you asked for the formula. So there it is. And "code" is just a tag for the bb system to present the data in an organized fashion.

Oh, and Lucko is right... the 25 at the end is actually (25+fees)-2% pool fee, basically the total reward for the block.
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