[4+ EH] Slush Pool (slushpool.com); Overt AsicBoost; World First Mining Pool

[eoakland]

ONE valid block in the last 41 hours and 15 minutes and counting.  this is officially the longest drought i have witnessed.  i remember a 34 hour block, but i don't recall 41+ and only ONE valid block

[dmwardjr]

ONE valid block in the last 41 hours and 15 minutes and counting.  this is officially the longest drought i have witnessed.  i remember a 34 hour block, but i don't recall 41+ and only ONE valid block

Agreed!

Something is fishy and I don't like it!!!

That's why I've been on the Dark Side the last 36 hours.

[dmwardjr]

Well, we had a WALL at $400.00 that has finally been chewed into.  NOW, the wall is around $425.00.  Not a big wall, but a wall none the less.  It will take about two days to chew down that wall.  Just a matter of time before we get to $510.00 by Thanksgiving.  Just a matter of time.

The "Green" side is like a wave.  Ride the wave, Dude's!  Ride the wave!  If you don't get on now, you're gonna miss it!  If you are "buying" BTC, that is!  Not sure if any of you are buying on any exchange to accumulate more coin.  That's what time it is!  It's all up hill from here on out; at least to $650.00.  I can see us hitting $650.00 between January and February.

Yes, we will have a few days along the way to $650.00 where it will go back a little, but nothing too serious.  It's all up hill for the most part from here on out.

David

Well, my "1 Day" average has come very close to even with my "5m," "15m" and "1 hr." averages.  May payouts have come close to max I'm gonna get now.  I have noticed the total pool hash rate has gone down from 62 Ph/s to around 55 to 57 Ph/s lately.  I don't know why?  The number of solved blocks has slowed down a bit as well because of it.

5m:    7.21 Th/s
15m:  7.26 Th/s
1h:     7.34 Th/s
1d:     7.17 Th/s

19599   2014-10-15 05:13:57   325389   25.0590   8/120   26 minutes   55.48 Ph/s   9882680/75000008223   0.01%   20007236544   0.00330200
19598   2014-10-15 04:48:09   325386   25.1419   11/120   an hour   56.01 Ph/s   9881160/75000011428   0.01%   38121412677   0.00331241
19597   2014-10-15 03:59:25   325381   25.0363   16/120   an hour   55.50 Ph/s   9897080/75000043316   0.01%   64850907973   0.00330381
19596   2014-10-15 02:35:46   325371   25.0242   26/120   26 minutes   57.18 Ph/s   9691800/75000006178   0.01%   20916728009   0.00323372
19595   2014-10-15 02:09:36   325368   25.0168   29/120   34 minutes   57.32 Ph/s   9601400/75000264336   0.01%   27387503755   0.00320260
19594   2014-10-15 01:35:24   325362   25.0504   35/120   an hour   57.74 Ph/s   9613920/75000263225   0.01%   63716928858   0.00321108
19593   2014-10-15 00:16:24   325352   25.3525   45/120   an hour   58.43 Ph/s   9504480/75000005501   0.01%   40577926052   0.00321282
19592   2014-10-14 23:26:41   325351   25.0719   46/120   25 minutes   57.92 Ph/s   9433280/75000021231   0.01%   20525203248   0.00315347
19591   2014-10-14 23:01:19   325349   25.2394   48/120   13 minutes   58.28 Ph/s   9532560/75000024802   0.01%   10462744315   0.00320794
19590   2014-10-14 22:48:28   325348   25.1942   49/120   42 minutes   58.59 Ph/s   9559920/75000023986   0.01%   34282482547   0.00321139
19589   2014-10-14 22:06:35   325347   25.1091   50/120   13 minutes   57.74 Ph/s   9476560/75000009874   0.01%   10526200496   0.00317264
19588   2014-10-14 21:53:32   325345   25.1527   52/120   15 minutes   58.25 Ph/s   9501480/75000007054   0.01%   11798511520   0.00318650
19587   2014-10-14 21:39:02   325344   25.0135   53/120   5 minutes   57.42 Ph/s   9494160/75000007800   0.01%   4104269501   0.00316643
19586   2014-10-14 21:33:55   325342   25.1163   55/120   an hour   58.17 Ph/s   9456920/75000004291   0.01%   36773717683   0.00316697
19585   2014-10-14 20:48:40   325334   25.1554   63/120   21 minutes   59.08 Ph/s   9278080/75000005295   0.01%   17511352630   0.00311191
19584   2014-10-14 20:27:27   325333   25.0179   64/120   2 minutes   56.02 Ph/s   9158520/75000006275   0.01%   1212989575   0.00305502
19583   2014-10-14 20:25:54   325332   25.0076   65/120   a few seconds   49.10 Ph/s   9158520/75000006275   0.01%   228656795   0.00305377
19582   2014-10-14 20:25:34   325331   25.1247   66/120   2 hours   59.35 Ph/s   9158520/75000006275   0.01%   77964936677   0.00306806

[TvaiX]

Slush pool luck is down to the drain... But still I with slush!

[dmwardjr]

Slush pool luck is down to the drain... But still I with slush!

Understandable!

We hit 42 blocks on The Dark Side yesterday (10/14/2014).  At x .00319281 average payout = 0.13409802 BTC for 10/14/2014.  I have not had all 16 of my S3's on Slush yet to get an idea of the average payout at a given number of hashing power; such as 8 Ph/s.  However, I do know The payouts are nice on Slush WHEN it is running lucky.

My first day at mining was on Slush (September 22, 2014).  We hit 13 blocks that day, which was GREAT!  I had an average payout of .0174 BTC on each block.  That totaled up to .2262 BTC.  THAT was a great day!  We had a decent day on October 6, 2014 as well.  However, it's been rough the last 2 days.

I did the math and found I needed to hit 34.5 blocks  in one day at the Dark Side to have 100@ luck and 4.5 blocks in one day on Slush to equal 100% luck.  At 42 blocks, the Dark Side had a lucky day.  I'm sure "luck" changes back and forth between pools.  I just needed some consistency to get a little over 3.0 BTC to get a new Bitmain Antminer S4.  I was getting rather anxious for an S4.  So, I switched over to the Dark Side to get there as soon as possible.

[dmwardjr]

The Dark Side has switched to 10 MINUTE BLOCKS now that we are down to 55 Ph/s total hashing power, which see:

90727   2014-10-15 07:12:56   10 minutes   55.76 Ph/s   7.44 Th/s   35002482026   1001200   0.013%   0 (0.00%)   7500000642
90726   2014-10-15 07:03:19   10 minutes   55.25 Ph/s   7.59 Th/s   35002482026   1030800   0.014%   1400 (0.14%)   7500000161
90725   2014-10-15 06:53:35   10 minutes   55.69 Ph/s   7.50 Th/s   35002482026   1010440   0.013%   480 (0.05%)   7500000229
90724   2014-10-15 06:43:57   10 minutes   55.31 Ph/s   7.40 Th/s   35002482026   1003040   0.013%   440 (0.04%)   7500013023
90723   2014-10-15 06:34:15   10 minutes   55.67 Ph/s   7.54 Th/s   35002482026   1015880   0.014%   0 (0.00%)   7500000380
90722   2014-10-15 06:24:36   10 minutes   55.42 Ph/s   7.56 Th/s   35002482026   1023520   0.014%   0 (0.00%)   7500000905
90721   2014-10-15 06:14:55   10 minutes   54.87 Ph/s   7.33 Th/s   35002482026   1002040   0.013%   0 (0.00%)   7500511759
90720   2014-10-15 06:05:08   10 minutes   53.64 Ph/s   7.25 Th/s   35002482026   1013880   0.014%   960 (0.09%)   7500000019
90719   2014-10-15 05:55:07   10 minutes   55.25 Ph/s   7.30 Th/s   35002482026    991160    0.013%   0 (0.00%)   7500000908
90718   2014-10-15 05:45:24   10 minutes   55.23 Ph/s   7.60 Th/s   35002482026   1032360   0.014%   1880 (0.18%)   7500001174

[Sir Alan]

Have you noticed how nobody complains when we have a run of good luck, but when it goes tits-up for a couple of days all the accusations and conspiracy theories start coming out of the woodwork?  Happens every time - so does the return to normal performance, if there is such a thing.

[pekatete]

dmwardjr,
You really need to read the latest posts in the S4 thread as the PSU's are crap and are catching on fire. Would not put into my house at this point. Wouldn't be surprised if bitmain pulls them for now they know they have some serious problems that could potentially hurt someone.

THX FOR THE HEADS UP!!!

Still will be 2 to 4 weeks before I start getting those.  Maybe they will have that issue worked out by the time I get to thinking seriously about getting 1 or 2 of them.

I need to look at the thread on them.

Seems like they have sorted that out.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=330665.msg9207615#msg9207615

Still, I'll wait for user reports after they ship the "new" S4's (by which time they may actually not be worth it in terms of ROI !!!)

[pekatete]

Have you noticed how nobody complains when we have a run of good luck, but when it goes tits-up for a couple of days all the accusations and conspiracy theories start coming out of the woodwork?  Happens every time - so does the return to normal performance, if there is such a thing.

If somebody complained of good luck, that would be strange; on the other hand, it is perfectly normal to complain of bad luck (and that in any field of life, not just bitcoin pool luck!)

Now if you care to take some time and explain to me what exactly your point was, that would be nice (lucky if you like).

[Tazza]

Have you noticed how nobody complains when we have a run of good luck, but when it goes tits-up for a couple of days all the accusations and conspiracy theories start coming out of the woodwork?  Happens every time - so does the return to normal performance, if there is such a thing.

If somebody complained of good luck, that would be strange; on the other hand, it is perfectly normal to complain of bad luck (and that in any field of life, not just bitcoin pool luck!)

Now if you care to take some time and explain to me what exactly your point was, that would be nice (lucky if you like).

Though not worded the best, his point was that every time a run of bad luck comes along people - particularly those new to mining - will spout off as though it's unusual and crap on about it being 'fishy' among other things, while only a few weeks prior thinking they have the expertise to predict when a block will be found based off a few prior days when luck was good.

I agree with him. Ignorance is no excuse under the law, nor should it be on here with several hundred previous pages of which maybe 5-10% are people utterly astonished that luck can go down as well as up.

[pekatete]

... particularly those new to mining - will spout off as though it's unusual and crap on about it being 'fishy' among other things ..

I agree with him. Ignorance is no excuse under the law, nor should it be on here ...

If, as you insist, pool luck is just that, then surely it can not be demonstrated to be otherwise. Unfortunately for you, it has, and that by the ignorant mob you so detest. (EDIT: and by-the-way, ignorance may not be an excuse under the law as you say, but neither is it a crime under any law!)

... with several hundred previous pages of which maybe 5-10% are people utterly astonished that luck can go down as well as up.

Bitcoin mining may be a collective of sorts, but individuals make REAL fiat investment(s) to participate in the collective and have every right to question your very own take on the definition of luck. I personally think in bitcoin mining (as in life generally), one makes their own luck, given everything else being the same for everyone; So, if someone is astonished at how un-lucky (or vice versa) a pool is, so what ... !? (EDIT: that's nothing to write home about)

[Tazza]

If, as you insist, pool luck is just that, then surely it can not be demonstrated to be otherwise. Unfortunately for you, it has, and that by the ignorant mob you so detest.

On the contrary. For the sake of the argument envisage yourself as the sole miner of bitcoins and ask yourself whether you would find a block bang on every 10 minutes or if there would be a variation. That's Solo. Now extrapolate that variation over the number of miners/pools we currently have and it's only natural the variation is going to be exacerbated.

So, if someone is astonished at how un-lucky (or vice versa) a pool is, so what ... !?

It becomes repetitive. Simple as that. Just the same as the numerous posts on slush's payout times become repetitive. The issue is not with what people are (or aren't) astonished about but rather that they keep flogging a dead horse.

[pekatete]

... extrapolate that variation over the number of miners/pools we currently have and it's only natural the variation is going to be exacerbated.

As far as pool luck is concerned, thanks for agreeing with the ignorant mob (or for that matter counting yourself amongst the ignorant mob)

It becomes repetitive. Simple as that. .... The issue is not with what people are (or aren't) astonished about but rather that they keep flogging a dead horse.

What is the harm in that? The bloody thing is dead anyways!

[Tazza]

As far as pool luck is concerned, thanks for agreeing with the ignorant mob (or for that matter counting yourself amongst the ignorant mob)

I'm well aware of the maths. To make it clear I'll go the other way; if each and every one of us is no longer part of any pool and all mine solo, on average the chance that any one of us might find a block is less than bugger all - ie you find a block you are pretty damn lucky.... More people means more resources means the 'luck' is shared among contributors and more consistent. This scales too.

What is the harm in that? The bloody thing is dead anyways!

Heh there's a good joke about how governments would utilize a dead horse.

[pekatete]

you find a block you are pretty damn lucky ... More people means more resources means the 'luck' is shared among contributors and more consistent. This scales too.

Your perception of luck or what it means is conceptually flawed. There is no such thing as shared luck in the context of bitcoin mining, let alone that you can scale that luck.

My understanding of pool luck is that it is a simple percentage calculation based on hashing power (EDIT: that of a pool over the entire network END EDIT:) as a factor of blocks released by the bitcoin algorithm. Sometimes, weights are factored into that calcullation based on bands of hashing power (of a pool), but in my opinion, this is simply eye candy (aka smoothing). If that is what you refer to as "scalable luck" then you are confusing one thing for the other.

[dmwardjr]

dmwardjr,
You really need to read the latest posts in the S4 thread as the PSU's are crap and are catching on fire. Would not put into my house at this point. Wouldn't be surprised if bitmain pulls them for now they know they have some serious problems that could potentially hurt someone.

THX FOR THE HEADS UP!!!

Still will be 2 to 4 weeks before I start getting those.  Maybe they will have that issue worked out by the time I get to thinking seriously about getting 1 or 2 of them.

I need to look at the thread on them.

Seems like they have sorted that out.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=330665.msg9207615#msg9207615

Still, I'll wait for user reports after they ship the "new" S4's (by which time they may actually not be worth it in terms of ROI !!!)

Thanks, sjc!!!

I will be ordering one as soon as I have enough BTC earned from my current S3's in operation.  I'm more than half way there. 

I started with 10 S3's.  Now that I have 16 S3's going, I should achieve the BTC needed to purchase the S4 sooner.

I'm satisfied with their solution to ship out new S4's with the updated PSU's.  They are also including 10 days worth of BTC mined by 2 TH's of hashing power.  However, what that amount is, I'm not sure.

I believe they will have the updated firmware in the controller installed as well.  If not, it's no big deal.  Even Slush now will allow "difficulty setting." I'm at 2.06 BTC earned since the 22nd of September.  Those earnings are with several interruptions with my internet connection. 

I NOW have a business account with a static IP that also ensures I'm up and running within 4 hours of an outage.  They installed a business modem two days ago (Monday).  Charter Communications slowest speed the offered was 30 Mbps.  Now it is 60 Mbps.  They were not quite done with the upgrades in all areas [My area being one of them] before implementation.  The outages I've had [off and on] over a 10 day period caused me to miss out on approximately 0.21 BTC ($80.00 US at this date and time of writing). 

Also, my serving pedestal is a 4 Port 11 Value.  The Forward signal (down stream) and Return signal (up stream)  are coming out of the pedestal at too hot of a level.  They have not adjusted the levels down to acceptable levels.  I've had to "pad it down" with a splitter that inserts -7dB of loss to ensure a "stable" connection.  I'm fine with this.  If something should happen in the outside plant to reduce the levels arriving at the serving pedestal, I will simply remove my splitter in front of the modem.

Thanks again for the info.  I'm still going to purchase an S4 the very moment I have enough BTC in my wallet to get one.  I will get it working as soon as it arrives to make it possible to get another S4 even faster than the previous one.  So on and so forth.  I'm paying for the electricity out of my own pocket without converting BTC to US until I have approximately all 8 S4's I'm wanting.  Then I will begin converting the BTC needed to pay for electricity.

Thanks again for your update, sjc!!!

[dmwardjr]

Have you noticed how nobody complains when we have a run of good luck, but when it goes tits-up for a couple of days all the accusations and conspiracy theories start coming out of the woodwork?  Happens every time - so does the return to normal performance, if there is such a thing.

If somebody complained of good luck, that would be strange; on the other hand, it is perfectly normal to complain of bad luck (and that in any field of life, not just bitcoin pool luck!)

Now if you care to take some time and explain to me what exactly your point was, that would be nice (lucky if you like).

Though not worded the best, his point was that every time a run of bad luck comes along people - particularly those new to mining - will spout off as though it's unusual and crap on about it being 'fishy' among other things, while only a few weeks prior thinking they have the expertise to predict when a block will be found based off a few prior days when luck was good.

I agree with him. Ignorance is no excuse under the law, nor should it be on here with several hundred previous pages of which maybe 5-10% are people utterly astonished that luck can go down as well as up.

Dude, don't talk like that.

I mentioned more than I could care to count "Depending on luck."  Don't be nor talk in such condescending tones, PLEASE.  I could have responding to you another way that would accomplish nothing but disrespectful communications between the two of us and waste both of our time.

Did I or did I not explain the numbers in order for two particular pools (Slush and GHash) needed to achieve 100% LUCK?  I do believe the word "LUCK" was mentioned several times in my posts.  I did not DARE say they WILL find that many blocks.  So, don't put words in my mouth and try to make a mockery of me.

Yes, I may be a newbie, but that doesn't mean I cannot use data to determine a pools "100 % LUCK FACTOR."  I want to call you so many names now for misrepresenting me that I find it hard to hold back.  However, I'm going to hold back to avoid taking away from our discussion.  Just don't be rude and make proclamations that have no merit.

I have many posts that said how many blocks a pool would need to find in order to achieve 100% LUCK and NEVER PREDICTED HOW MANY BLOCKS THEY ACTUALLY WILL FIND.

Here is an example:  

Slush is averaging right at 8 PH/s TOTAL hashing power.  At present difficulty, that is approximately 5 hours 10 minutes time for each block found.  To be at 100% Luck for the week [while maintaining a consistent 8 PH/s] we would need to find [24 hours divided by 5.16666667 hours] = 4.64516129 blocks each day during that week.  Again, that's to maintain 100% Luck.

[Slush] 4.64516129 blocks x .01452471 average shares with 4.67 TH/s = 0.06746962 BTC average each day.  That would be 2.02408860 BTC in 30 days (1 month).

GHash is averaging right at 60 PH/s TOTAL hashing power.  At present difficulty, that is approximately 41 minutes 21 seconds for each block found.  To be at 100% Luck for the week [while maintaining a consistent 60 PH/s] they would need to find [24 hours divided by .68775 hours] = 34.8964013 blocks each day during that week.  Again, that's to maintain 100% Luck.

EDIT:  CORRECTION MADE TO GHASH ON AVERAGE SHARES, WHICH CHANGES ALL NUMBERS

[GHash] 34.8964013 blocks x .00193933 average shares with 4.67 TH/s = 0.066767564 BTC average each day.  That would be 2.03026914 BTC in 30 days (1 month).  ALSO, one also gets bonus alt coins as well.  Such as NMC and others.  It's a bonus all the way.  Not sure how well those coins are doing and their value related to BTC.  Haven't really looked into THAT part of it deep enough yet.


So, chill out please...

[dmwardjr]

Have you noticed how nobody complains when we have a run of good luck, but when it goes tits-up for a couple of days all the accusations and conspiracy theories start coming out of the woodwork?  Happens every time - so does the return to normal performance, if there is such a thing.

If somebody complained of good luck, that would be strange; on the other hand, it is perfectly normal to complain of bad luck (and that in any field of life, not just bitcoin pool luck!)

Now if you care to take some time and explain to me what exactly your point was, that would be nice (lucky if you like).

Though not worded the best, his point was that every time a run of bad luck comes along people - particularly those new to mining - will spout off as though it's unusual and crap on about it being 'fishy' among other things, while only a few weeks prior thinking they have the expertise to predict when a block will be found based off a few prior days when luck was good.

I agree with him. Ignorance is no excuse under the law, nor should it be on here with several hundred previous pages of which maybe 5-10% are people utterly astonished that luck can go down as well as up.

Explain to me how the following is "ignorance":

Slush is averaging right at 8 PH/s TOTAL hashing power.  At present difficulty, that is approximately 5 hours 10 minutes time for each block found.  To be at 100% Luck for the week [while maintaining a consistent 8 PH/s] we would need to find [24 hours divided by 5.16666667 hours] = 4.64516129 blocks each day during that week.  Again, that's to maintain 100% Luck.

[Slush] 4.64516129 blocks x .01452471 average shares with 4.67 TH/s = 0.06746962 BTC average each day.  That would be 2.02408860 BTC in 30 days (1 month).

GHash is averaging right at 60 PH/s TOTAL hashing power.  At present difficulty, that is approximately 41 minutes 21 seconds for each block found.  To be at 100% Luck for the week [while maintaining a consistent 60 PH/s] they would need to find [24 hours divided by .68775 hours] = 34.8964013 blocks each day during that week.  Again, that's to maintain 100% Luck.

EDIT:  CORRECTION MADE TO GHASH ON AVERAGE SHARES, WHICH CHANGES ALL NUMBERS

[GHash] 34.8964013 blocks x .00193933 average shares with 4.67 TH/s = 0.066767564 BTC average each day.  That would be 2.03026914 BTC in 30 days (1 month).  ALSO, one also gets bonus alt coins as well.  Such as NMC and others.  It's a bonus all the way.  Not sure how well those coins are doing and their value related to BTC.  Haven't really looked into THAT part of it deep enough yet.

Do you see ANYWHERE in this where I made SO CALL PREDICTIONS?

HELL NO YOU DON'T

Also, if you have ANY sense, you would agree that these calculations have merit.

If you have any HONOR, you would also admit you were WRONG to claim I "predicted" when and how many blocks would be found by any pool.

Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgement.

Also, do not bare FALSE witness.

[dmwardjr]

If, as you insist, pool luck is just that, then surely it can not be demonstrated to be otherwise. Unfortunately for you, it has, and that by the ignorant mob you so detest.

On the contrary. For the sake of the argument envisage yourself as the sole miner of bitcoins and ask yourself whether you would find a block bang on every 10 minutes or if there would be a variation. That's Solo. Now extrapolate that variation over the number of miners/pools we currently have and it's only natural the variation is going to be exacerbated.

So, if someone is astonished at how un-lucky (or vice versa) a pool is, so what ... !?

It becomes repetitive. Simple as that. Just the same as the numerous posts on slush's payout times become repetitive. The issue is not with what people are (or aren't) astonished about but rather that they keep flogging a dead horse.

I want you to show me in the following post I have made and repeated on here several times HOW THE HECK I SAID WHEN A BLOCK WILL BE FOUND AND HOW MANY BLOCKS WOULD BE FOUND...  DID I OR DID I NOT SAY A CERTAIN NUMBER WOULD HAVE TO BE FOUND """""TO BE 100% LUCK FOR THE WEEK?"""""



Slush is averaging right at 8 PH/s TOTAL hashing power.  At present difficulty, that is approximately 5 hours 10 minutes time for each block found.  To be at 100% Luck for the week [while maintaining a consistent 8 PH/s] we would need to find [24 hours divided by 5.16666667 hours] = 4.64516129 blocks each day during that week.  Again, that's to maintain 100% Luck.

[Slush] 4.64516129 blocks x .01452471 average shares with 4.67 TH/s = 0.06746962 BTC average each day.  That would be 2.02408860 BTC in 30 days (1 month).

GHash is averaging right at 60 PH/s TOTAL hashing power.  At present difficulty, that is approximately 41 minutes 21 seconds for each block found.  To be at 100% Luck for the week [while maintaining a consistent 60 PH/s] they would need to find [24 hours divided by .68775 hours] = 34.8964013 blocks each day during that week.  Again, that's to maintain 100% Luck.

EDIT:  CORRECTION MADE TO GHASH ON AVERAGE SHARES, WHICH CHANGES ALL NUMBERS

[GHash] 34.8964013 blocks x .00193933 average shares with 4.67 TH/s = 0.066767564 BTC average each day.  That would be 2.03026914 BTC in 30 days (1 month).  ALSO, one also gets bonus alt coins as well.  Such as NMC and others.  It's a bonus all the way.  Not sure how well those coins are doing and their value related to BTC.  Haven't really looked into THAT part of it deep enough yet.


STOP YOUR CLAIMS THAT HAVE LACK OF MERIT!  STOP BARING FALSE WITNESS AS WELL!!!

[dmwardjr]

... extrapolate that variation over the number of miners/pools we currently have and it's only natural the variation is going to be exacerbated.

As far as pool luck is concerned, thanks for agreeing with the ignorant mob (or for that matter counting yourself amongst the ignorant mob)

It becomes repetitive. Simple as that. .... The issue is not with what people are (or aren't) astonished about but rather that they keep flogging a dead horse.

What is the harm in that? The bloody thing is dead anyways!

LOL