HashFast announces specs for new ASIC: 400GH/s

[frank93]

I.e. if you paid 50 BTC when 50 BTC were worth $75, and a BTC is worth $750 on the date of your refund, they'd be offering to refund 5 BTC?
Do I have that right?

yes.

[1715053886]

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[GlapLaw]

How much did these machines cost? Sorry, I know I could probably dig through and find the answers, but this is a long thread.

[frank93]

How much did these machines cost? Sorry, I know I could probably dig through and find the answers, but this is a long thread.

between 40 and 60 BTC, depending on when you bought it.

[mgio]

How much did these machines cost? Sorry, I know I could probably dig through and find the answers, but this is a long thread.

On day 1, August 8, they were $5,600. Shipping for me was $169.57. Total cost in BTC was 61.0864.

[minternj]

How much did these machines cost? Sorry, I know I could probably dig through and find the answers, but this is a long thread.

Priced at USD equivalent of $5,600 .

[joshv06]

Where are my B1 rigs?

[GlapLaw]

How much did these machines cost? Sorry, I know I could probably dig through and find the answers, but this is a long thread.

On day 1, August 8, they were $5,600. Shipping for me was $169.57. Total cost in BTC was 61.0864.

So, if my math is right, BTC were around 1 BTC = $94 when you purchased. They're now $800. So under their policy, your refund would be around 7 BTC?

[minternj]

How much did these machines cost? Sorry, I know I could probably dig through and find the answers, but this is a long thread.

On day 1, August 8, they were $5,600. Shipping for me was $169.57. Total cost in BTC was 61.0864.

So, if my math is right, BTC were around 1 BTC = $94 when you purchased. They're now $800. So under their policy, your refund would be around 7 BTC?

No read the refund policy in the pdf i linked. Under thier polcy you would get USD 5600 in a bank wire.

[GlapLaw]

How much did these machines cost? Sorry, I know I could probably dig through and find the answers, but this is a long thread.

On day 1, August 8, they were $5,600. Shipping for me was $169.57. Total cost in BTC was 61.0864.

So, if my math is right, BTC were around 1 BTC = $94 when you purchased. They're now $800. So under their policy, your refund would be around 7 BTC?

No read the refund policy in the pdf i linked. Under thier polcy you would get USD 5600 in a bank wire.

Apologies, I was working from the email on page 280.

Thank you.

Looking at it now, though, the second option (beginning "OPTIONAL") would seem to be what I'm addressing, while the first option would be the wire transfer in USD.

[gmaxwell]

If there would be a chance that BTC would loose it's value 10x for a longer period I would not by any mining equipment, I would sell all my BTC.

Right, if a customer believed BTC was at all likely to under go a major loss in value they'd sell some or all of their BTC and certainly not buy an expensive producing machine.  

Keep in mind HF's refunds only kicked in if they delivered more than two months after their "target" dates. Even if you were crazy enough to think that buying a mining machine was a good way to hedge against a decline in BTC valuations, and somehow misunderstood HF's multiple statements to Batch 1 buyers about their terms, a HF purchase would not have been a good buy for that purpose... since if you believed HF you were likely to receive the machines.

It's also worth pointing out that HF's competition was offering product at less than half the price per GH/s (which was later, but still during batch 1 sales, changed to _one fifth_ the price per GH/s), but without the suggestion of October delivery or a full refund of BTC paid (although the promise of a hashrate bump for very late delivery).

[minternj]

If you go for the optional refund, then the answer is no idea. Since no one can predict when what the BTC will be "at the exchange rate quoted by Bitstamp on the day
HashFast provides such Bitcoins." That can be 3 years from now, or 20. Maybe 50? What a terribly written legal document.

Also there is some wording about receiving 5% above your refund amount. I'm suprised no one mentioned that in here.

[ninjarobot]

IANAL, But all you need to know about refunds is right there in the ToS and Order Confirmation. These two documents are the binding contract you and HF agreed to at the time of the sale.

The ToS defines the payment as:

Payments are due in the amounts, in the currency, and at the time stated in the order or confirmation sent by Hashfast, or if not so stated: (a) paid in Bitcoin

The Order Confirmation quantifies and confirms the payment. In my case:

HashFast Technologies has received your order and payment in BTC for 1 Baby Jets. TOTAL BTC 59.7987

The Order Confirmation also clearly states your right to a refund of the payment in case the customer requests a refund before Jan 15 after failure to deliver by the guaranteed delivery date:

HashFast will issue a full refund the payment for the units that Buyer purchased but did not receive and cancelled.

So the payment is the payment and that is what is due unless you sign into a new agreement with HF by using the 'refund form'.

In other news I received the following letter today:

[mgio]

It would be really funny if BTC dropped to $100 or so, and everyone submitted a refund request because we would all get our full BTC back and hashfast would quickly go out of business...

The ONLY thing that is saving them right now is the fact that BTC is nearly 10 times to price it was when most of the orders were placed.

[GlapLaw]

Section J of the TOS:

"(j)       REFUNDS.  Any refunds due to Buyer will be made in United States Dollars, and for the purposes of calculating refunds, amounts paid in Bitcoin or other virtual currencies will be deemed paid in United States Dollars at the exchange rate given by Hashfast to its customers on the order date.  Refunds for partial order cancelations or returns will be adjusted for any discounts previously given to Buyer for volume purchases."

Was this always there?

Edit: using the wayback machine, I see that it was not.

[mgio]

Another thing that is bothering me is if someone does fight HashFast and HashFast agrees to give them their full BTC back, they will likely ask them to sign something that says they are not allowed to disclose the terms of the settlement publicly. That means we'll probably never know if someone wins the fight and if it is worth going after HashFast .

[mgio]

Section J of the TOS:

"(j)       REFUNDS.  Any refunds due to Buyer will be made in United States Dollars, and for the purposes of calculating refunds, amounts paid in Bitcoin or other virtual currencies will be deemed paid in United States Dollars at the exchange rate given by Hashfast to its customers on the order date.  Refunds for partial order cancelations or returns will be adjusted for any discounts previously given to Buyer for volume purchases."

Was this always there?

Of course not. The TOS for the first week of ordering or so were very different than they are now. Unfortunately, no one seems to remember exactly what they were :-/.

[perezoso]

Another thing that is bothering me is if someone does fight HashFast and HashFast agrees to give them their full BTC back, they will likely ask them to sign something that says they are not allowed to disclose the terms of the settlement publicly. That means we'll probably never know if someone wins the fight and if it is worth going after HashFast .

Sigh.  Another reason why we should have worked together.

[ninjarobot]

Section J of the TOS:

"(j)       REFUNDS.  Any refunds due to Buyer will be made in United States Dollars, and for the purposes of calculating refunds, amounts paid in Bitcoin or other virtual currencies will be deemed paid in United States Dollars at the exchange rate given by Hashfast to its customers on the order date.  Refunds for partial order cancelations or returns will be adjusted for any discounts previously given to Buyer for volume purchases."

Was this always there?

Of course not. The TOS for the first week of ordering or so were very different than they are now. Unfortunately, no one seems to remember exactly what they were :-/.

I saved a copy on day 1 (August 8 ) and emailed it to myself so it is time stamped by gmail. I've also uploaded it to pastebin in September here: http://pastebin.com/EfS9vmRf

This is the ToS I agreed to and will hold HF to. Since they frequently changed the ToS and often without notifying customers or changing the revision number and date it is up to each customer to figure out exactly what they agreed to at the date they made the sale.

[perezoso]

The truth hurts, right?

I'm not trying to insult anyone, i'm just telling you guys how scammers act after a big heist like this.

It's perfect. Of course they sent out a couple of dev units to keep your hope up.

Edit: Next step in "How to scam, big time" , after the poorly,  hand assembled dev units going out, is that within 2-4 weeks they will pull HashFast.com

 Then within a week comes the official statement from Eudoardo where he with a tear in his eye declares HashFast is no more and they will try (<--) to make sure everyone get's their money back. Curtain, the show is over.

While imperfect, bankruptcy law does have protections for creditors.  I'm sure that management could abscond with some money, but it's nothing like what you portray, and with the outward appearance of fraud on some important issues (Oct delivery, MPP), there is potential personal civil or even criminal penalty.  If they disappear now, they will not wind up drinking a daquiri on a Caribbean beach - if they do, they will face a warrant - they will instead face years of expensive, time consuming, and depressing legal wrangling.

No matter what happens, and I presently assume it's going to be an ugly end, I am going to follow these guys.  I once had a horrific landlord that bothered and stole from me.  I followed that bastard on the internet for years (and thereby found other victims). Wherever he appeared, I made sure to remind people of the story of how he mistreated people. That's not at all something I usually do, even when slighted, but sometimes people just really, really piss you off.

Hashfast's management has crossed that threshold. I presently plan to do the same with Hashfast's people as I did with my landlord.  Wherever they appear in the future, they can look forward to me being there, and informing their friends and colleagues about how they ripped people off, what assholes they were. Especially deCastro and Scrotum.

[mgio]

Section J of the TOS:

"(j)       REFUNDS.  Any refunds due to Buyer will be made in United States Dollars, and for the purposes of calculating refunds, amounts paid in Bitcoin or other virtual currencies will be deemed paid in United States Dollars at the exchange rate given by Hashfast to its customers on the order date.  Refunds for partial order cancelations or returns will be adjusted for any discounts previously given to Buyer for volume purchases."

Was this always there?

Of course not. The TOS for the first week of ordering or so were very different than they are now. Unfortunately, no one seems to remember exactly what they were :-/.

I saved a copy on day 1 (August 8 ) and emailed it to myself so it is time stamped by gmail. I've also uploaded it to pastebin in September here: http://pastebin.com/EfS9vmRf

This is the ToS I agreed to and will hold HF to. Since they frequently changed the ToS and often without notifying customers or changing the revision number and date it is up to each customer to figure out exactly what they agreed to at the date they made the sale.

Has anyone tried going through arbitration with them? If not, I might try it out.