Incoming Avalon News 8/9/2013

[Its About Sharing]

Or, I might get angry because the Christmas present I wanted to give my wife is stuck in some sorting office somewhere until after New Year.

How we chose to conduct ourselves when we face adversity is what defines us.

What a great thought! I've faced nearly overwhelming adversity in my life. And it faced it with dignity and courage, if I do say so myself.

Yet I still get mad if a Christmas present  I ordered arrives too late, or if someone cheats me out a couple grand worth of bitcoin hardware. It's nothing compared to what I've already faced, but yet I get angry. It's funny how people are...

Thanks for the reminder
Now I just need to keep reminding myself: "How we chose to conduct ourselves when we face adversity is what defines us."

I see it as helping others. I don't think it will be fair to others to let this slide. When you have a certain knowledge, acting on it to help others is morally obligatory.

I find that is where we are.

[DeathAndTaxes]

Next gen that comes from Avalon or BFL... BOYCOTT.

Here is your chance.  BFL just announced 28nm pre-orders.  I am sure Avalon will too eventually.

[kano]

Next gen that comes from Avalon or BFL... BOYCOTT.

Here is your chance.  BFL just announced 28nm pre-orders.  I am sure Avalon will too eventually.

Maybe all maybe by KnC?

[kano]

Or, I might get angry because the Christmas present I wanted to give my wife is stuck in some sorting office somewhere until after New Year.

How we chose to conduct ourselves when we face adversity is what defines us.

What a great thought! I've faced nearly overwhelming adversity in my life. And it faced it with dignity and courage, if I do say so myself.

Yet I still get mad if a Christmas present  I ordered arrives too late, or if someone cheats me out a couple grand worth of bitcoin hardware. It's nothing compared to what I've already faced, but yet I get angry. It's funny how people are...

Thanks for the reminder
Now I just need to keep reminding myself: "How we chose to conduct ourselves when we face adversity is what defines us."

cardcomm, just ignore zumzero.
Looking through his post history, it's full of "Ken is only human, why did you expect him to do what he said he would do" regarding something elsewhere I'll not even bother linking.
His account has been registered for 3 weeks, so yeah a noob and he clearly knows nothing of what he is talking about.

[Its About Sharing]

Next gen that comes from Avalon or BFL... BOYCOTT.

Here is your chance.  BFL just announced 28nm pre-orders.  I am sure Avalon will too eventually.

Interesting. You want to know what would help BFL right now? If they started to upgrade certain orders delivered a bit late. Like barely profitable or unprofitably late. Just an idea and it won't cost them any more unless they got the old chips stacked up.

Any links?

[DeathAndTaxes]

Next gen that comes from Avalon or BFL... BOYCOTT.

Here is your chance.  BFL just announced 28nm pre-orders.  I am sure Avalon will too eventually.

Interesting. You want to know what would help BFL right now? If they started to upgrade certain orders delivered a bit late. Like barely profitable or unprofitably late. Just an idea and it won't cost them any more unless they got the old chips stacked up.

Any links?

You can upgrade an existing order but
1) you lose your place in line
2) have to pay the difference if product price
3) this is just the punch in the gut, there is a 10% fee for upgrades.  

So people who's gear is now obsolete because they waited a year for delivery, get to lose 10% more for the priveledge of joining the end of the line for "delivery" in December.  It would be hard to make this stuff up.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=276692.0;topicseen

[DeathAndTaxes]

Next gen that comes from Avalon or BFL... BOYCOTT.

Here is your chance.  BFL just announced 28nm pre-orders.  I am sure Avalon will too eventually.

Maybe all maybe by KnC?

Wouldn't that be ironic, especially after all the fudding Inaba did about 28nm chips being unrealistic.

[ProfMac]

For those of you who think it is easy to order chips and that YiFu could easily have done better and cheaper, I offer a challenge:

Make it so.

[kano]

For those of you who think it is easy to order chips and that YiFu could easily have done better and cheaper, I offer a challenge:

Make it so.

They had them in January ... so ... yeah send out an order for more of the same ... I guess that was beyond his abilities ...

[kano]

Next gen that comes from Avalon or BFL... BOYCOTT.

Here is your chance.  BFL just announced 28nm pre-orders.  I am sure Avalon will too eventually.

Interesting. You want to know what would help BFL right now? If they started to upgrade certain orders delivered a bit late. Like barely profitable or unprofitably late. Just an idea and it won't cost them any more unless they got the old chips stacked up.

Any links?

http://www.butterflylabs.com/

[ProfMac]

For those of you who think it is easy to order chips and that YiFu could easily have done better and cheaper, I offer a challenge:

Make it so.

They had them in January ... so ... yeah send out an order for more of the same ... I guess that was beyond his abilities ...

I don't think I can produce a batch of ASICs.  If you can, then compete with him.

[dmcdad]

For those of you who think it is easy to order chips and that YiFu could easily have done better and cheaper, I offer a challenge:

Make it so.

They had them in January ... so ... yeah send out an order for more of the same ... I guess that was beyond his abilities ...

I don't think I can produce a batch of ASICs.  If you can, then compete with him.

I'm not sure I understand your point, but my point is that I think Yifu has been unethical and needs to right his wrongs. I don't think the reason my chips haven't shipped have anything to do with how difficult it is to develop/produce/ship an ASIC. It has to do with him selling it to the highest bidder and not fulfilling his own plainly state "no bullshit" (should have been "loads of bullshit") terms of sale.

[kano]

For those of you who think it is easy to order chips and that YiFu could easily have done better and cheaper, I offer a challenge:

Make it so.

They had them in January ... so ... yeah send out an order for more of the same ... I guess that was beyond his abilities ...

I don't think I can produce a batch of ASICs.  If you can, then compete with him.

I don't think you can produce anything useful at all.

My point ... that is clearly beyond your feeble understanding ... is that they have already ordered these chips this year more than once.
The chips have been mining in 2 rigs since January ... a few more since then
So the process of getting more is a repeat of what they have already done more than once ... and no chip design involved in it at all.
Do I need to use smaller words or bigger text to point out the obvious?

[SebastianJu]

For those of you who think it is easy to order chips and that YiFu could easily have done better and cheaper, I offer a challenge:

Make it so.

It doesnt sound as hard to collect money, find the people that are capable to develop it and build the product in foundry.

The point is. Yifu already did this several times. He knows exactly how long it takes to produce that exact chip. There are no vars in between so he was able to give a lead time of 9-10 weeks. After 5 weeks exactly the chip batches in shop were changed to "Chips ordered" which means to me he knows that the chip production takes 4 weeks from then.
And it looks there were a huge amount of such chips see the fotos of the boxes. They only didnt reach us.
I cant believe his story. 20 batches in customs for 2 weeks when they are 5 weeks late? First, 20 batches are nothing and the 2 weeks explain nothing.
Then someone knocked at a employees door? Thats so creepy one have to stop working and, like i read, getting bodyguards? I really believe it only was a customer asking were his chips are.
The same goes for the pdf with private details. Whats the problem? The problem is that so many customers are angry and would like to break the communication stop. Without that the threat would be useless.

Whatever. Im tired of getting angry at Yifu.

[Vycid]

For those of you who think it is easy to order chips and that YiFu could easily have done better and cheaper, I offer a challenge:

Make it so.

They had them in January ... so ... yeah send out an order for more of the same ... I guess that was beyond his abilities ...

I don't think I can produce a batch of ASICs.  If you can, then compete with him.

I don't think you can produce anything useful at all.

My point ... that is clearly beyond your feeble understanding ... is that they have already ordered these chips this year more than once.
The chips have been mining in 2 rigs since January ... a few more since then
So the process of getting more is a repeat of what they have already done more than once ... and no chip design involved in it at all.
Do I need to use smaller words or bigger text to point out the obvious?

Do you understand what is involved with the manufacture of a modern integrated circuit? You are talking about one of the most complex manufacturing processes on earth. Yifu is clearly at fault for missing the deadlines he promised - but that does not change the fact that getting these chips manufactured is far more complex than sending TSMC a request for some more chips.

[Bitcoinorama]

For those of you who think it is easy to order chips and that YiFu could easily have done better and cheaper, I offer a challenge:

Make it so.

They had them in January ... so ... yeah send out an order for more of the same ... I guess that was beyond his abilities ...

I don't think I can produce a batch of ASICs.  If you can, then compete with him.

I don't think you can produce anything useful at all.

My point ... that is clearly beyond your feeble understanding ... is that they have already ordered these chips this year more than once.
The chips have been mining in 2 rigs since January ... a few more since then
So the process of getting more is a repeat of what they have already done more than once ... and no chip design involved in it at all.
Do I need to use smaller words or bigger text to point out the obvious?

Do you understand what is involved with the manufacture of a modern integrated circuit? You are talking about one of the most complex manufacturing processes on earth. Yifu is clearly at fault for missing the deadlines he promised - but that does not change the fact that getting these chips manufactured is far more complex than sending TSMC a request for some more chips.

Yes, but the chips have been ready and delivered from TSMC since 25th June.

[kano]

For those of you who think it is easy to order chips and that YiFu could easily have done better and cheaper, I offer a challenge:

Make it so.

They had them in January ... so ... yeah send out an order for more of the same ... I guess that was beyond his abilities ...

I don't think I can produce a batch of ASICs.  If you can, then compete with him.

I don't think you can produce anything useful at all.

My point ... that is clearly beyond your feeble understanding ... is that they have already ordered these chips this year more than once.
The chips have been mining in 2 rigs since January ... a few more since then
So the process of getting more is a repeat of what they have already done more than once ... and no chip design involved in it at all.
Do I need to use smaller words or bigger text to point out the obvious?

Do you understand what is involved with the manufacture of a modern integrated circuit? You are talking about one of the most complex manufacturing processes on earth. Yifu is clearly at fault for missing the deadlines he promised - but that does not change the fact that getting these chips manufactured is far more complex than sending TSMC a request for some more chips.

Yes I understand what is involved ... look at the last few orders he did, remember what he did, do it again so it arrives at the time he promised ... oh wait, I forgot to add, sell the chips to someone else and then run another order that will of course be late ...

[cardcomm]

Do you understand what is involved with the manufacture of a modern integrated circuit? You are talking about one of the most complex manufacturing processes on earth. Yifu is clearly at fault for missing the deadlines he promised - but that does not change the fact that getting these chips manufactured is far more complex than sending TSMC a request for some more chips.

Why in the heck would it be MORE difficult than sending in another order? That makes no sense whatsoever. It's extremely complicated to design and manufacture a car. Yet if my local Toyota dealer needs more cars, they have only to order more. Yes, they DO need to consider lead time, but that's pretty much the extent of the "complexity".

Given that the manufacturing facility has obviously been set up already, what specifically is so complicated about placing additional orders for more of the same product?

We have a saying in America: "It's so easy a child could do it."
 

[Vycid]

Do you understand what is involved with the manufacture of a modern integrated circuit? You are talking about one of the most complex manufacturing processes on earth. Yifu is clearly at fault for missing the deadlines he promised - but that does not change the fact that getting these chips manufactured is far more complex than sending TSMC a request for some more chips.

Why in the heck would it be MORE difficult than sending in another order? That makes no sense whatsoever. It's extremely complicated to design and manufacture a car. Yet if my local Toyota dealer needs more cars, they have only to order more. Yes, they DO need to consider lead time, but that's pretty much the extent of the "complexity".

Given that the manufacturing facility has obviously been set up already, what specifically is so complicated about placing additional orders for more of the same product?

We have a saying in America: "It's so easy a child could do it."
 

It makes no sense whatsoever because you do not understand what is involved.

Integrated circuits are manufactured starting from bare silicon substrates (wafers). They then go through a series of several hundred processing steps in multi-million dollar machines. These unit steps involve huge varieties of litho, etch, dep, strip/clean, and doping/implantation processes. The recipes, process parameters, and similar can change depending on how foundries are organizing their production flows, and how they are adding/removing/replacing processing tools. It is entirely possible that a wafer flow that was implemented successfully 6 months before is no longer possible because it's been replaced by something new. Furthermore, companies with much more influence than some kid (read: Yifu) may be utilizing 100% of the desired capacity for a specific process.

This isn't a turnkey business. Computer chips are not cars. Just because it was possible 6 months ago doesn't mean it is possible now, ESPECIALLY if you're a small customer. The fact that huge companies like AMD or Nvidia have issues with production at foundries should give you an idea of what it's like for Avalon.

Even if it WAS like cars, surely you can understand how a small customer might make an order for 10,000 cars and receive them as planned, because the manufacturing line is below capacity. But if Toyota comes along and asks for 1,000,000 units (I understand that car companies tend to own their factory - semiconductor companies usually do not), they might get shut out completely when they try to make their next order, because the manufacturing plant is at 100% capacity and cares far more about making Toyota happy than some punk with a 10,000-car special order.

If you could do this as a child, you should be a titan of industry by now.

[Vigil]

Do you understand what is involved with the manufacture of a modern integrated circuit? You are talking about one of the most complex manufacturing processes on earth. Yifu is clearly at fault for missing the deadlines he promised - but that does not change the fact that getting these chips manufactured is far more complex than sending TSMC a request for some more chips.

Why in the heck would it be MORE difficult than sending in another order? That makes no sense whatsoever. It's extremely complicated to design and manufacture a car. Yet if my local Toyota dealer needs more cars, they have only to order more. Yes, they DO need to consider lead time, but that's pretty much the extent of the "complexity".

Given that the manufacturing facility has obviously been set up already, what specifically is so complicated about placing additional orders for more of the same product?

We have a saying in America: "It's so easy a child could do it."
 

It makes no sense whatsoever because you do not understand what is involved.

Integrated circuits are manufactured starting from bare silicon substrates (wafers). They then go through a series of several hundred processing steps in multi-million dollar machines. These unit steps involve huge varieties of litho, etch, dep, strip/clean, and doping/implantation processes. The recipes, process parameters, and similar can change depending on how foundries are organizing their production flows, and how they are adding/removing/replacing processing tools. It is entirely possible that a wafer flow that was implemented successfully 6 months before is no longer possible because it's been replaced by something new. Furthermore, companies with much more influence than some kid (read: Yifu) may be utilizing 100% of the desired capacity for a specific process.

This isn't a turnkey business. Computer chips are not cars. Just because it was possible 6 months ago doesn't mean it is possible now, ESPECIALLY if you're a small customer. The fact that huge companies like AMD or Nvidia have issues with production at foundries should give you an idea of what it's like for Avalon.

Even if it WAS like cars, surely you can understand how a small customer might make an order for 10,000 cars and receive them as planned, because the manufacturing line is below capacity. But if Toyota comes along and asks for 1,000,000 units (I understand that car companies tend to own their factory - semiconductor companies usually do not), they might get shut out completely when they try to make their next order, because the manufacturing plant is at 100% capacity and cares far more about making Toyota happy than some punk with a 10,000-car special order.

If you could do this as a child, you should be a titan of industry by now.

Whether or not it is difficult or Avalon had some troubles that they didn't intend or couldn't foresee is completely irrelevant in the legal sense. They stated they would have the chips within a certain time-frame and they are obligated to that time-frame regardless of what mishaps or unforeseen circumstances transpired. We do not owe them sympathy or a break. If Avalon doesn't want to own up to the risk associated with delivering product on time based upon a contract then they need to get out of the business.