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Author Topic: Merit & new rank requirements  (Read 149755 times)
isaevaen
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February 10, 2018, 04:13:14 PM
 #2601

If the problem was the shitposters why not act on that? Peraphs closing the forum to new users, banning all the shitposters? And then adding an invite system maybe? Or something else?

Invite system will fail as there are scammers already in. They will keep inviting their alts.
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QuestionAuthority
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February 10, 2018, 04:18:28 PM
 #2602

Good grief, if everyone posting in this thread put as much effort in lengthy posts with this much forthought and detail in other sections of the forum everyone here would have 1000 merit.

Piggy
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February 10, 2018, 04:21:04 PM
 #2603

If the problem was the shitposters why not act on that? Peraphs closing the forum to new users, banning all the shitposters? And then adding an invite system maybe? Or something else?

Invite system will fail as there are scammers already in. They will keep inviting their alts.

In that case it would be easier to spot them
CreamyCheesecake
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February 10, 2018, 04:32:20 PM
 #2604

no one merit i only got 5 merit from someone thats sucks really
The merit system is a dead failure.
It only allows the advanced members to gain more bounty rewards...I'm sure that is why it was imposed...


People are obviously not understanding the merit system. This is intended for people to stop posting generic comments, spam, one line comments or useless opinions just to rank up. There's nothing wrong with one line comments, there are multiple times that is much better to be concise and straight forward and you can still have merit for an opinion like that. That's why the name "merit" you have to earn it. You have to participative, more collaborative, more useful, help each other and grow as a community. Merit is not a dead failure, is a system that will make this community grow as a whole with content and users that make a valuable forum.

You getting angry with more "advance members" because they were lucky to register their accounts long ago and be able to achieve the rank they currently are easier, is the same as if you would get angry of people grabbing bitcoin at $10. Of course it was easier to have 100 BTC back then, is much harder now with more people interested in it. The same goes with a higher rank in the forum, the more people are interested in it, the more scarce and valuable it becomes. Simple golden rule of supply and demand. Time is the most valuable measure of opportunity you can have.

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pvk444
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February 10, 2018, 04:36:03 PM
Merited by suchmoon (2)
 #2605

no one merit i only got 5 merit from someone thats sucks really
The merit system is a dead failure.
It only allows the advanced members to gain more bounty rewards...I'm sure that is why it was imposed...

This is Bitcoin forum. Not a bounty forum. The fact that most complainers seem to be focused on making money is a good indication that the merit system is a step in the right direction.

I don't mean any offence to either the merit recipient or the merit givers. But I believe this post is an example of the unexpected consequences of the merit system as implemented:

The post of suchmoon has received a rather significant amount of merits, which, I dare to say, reflect agreement with the opinion, rather than the quality of the post.

Again, this is not to critique the comment of suchmoon. I hole-heartedly agree with it. Also, everybody has their own reasons why they give their sMerits to somebody.

But I also don't believe the comment provided can be regarded as a "high-quality" post, in the original sense of what the sMerit system is expected to encourage.

If the merits are then being used to award simply for stating an opinion one is agreement with, then over time this will lead to the messages becoming biased towards the "majority opinion", and will not have much relevance with the quality of the post per se. (Again, I don't mean to imply that the post above is bad quality. But I also fail to see that it would be of such high quality deserving all the merits it received)

Unfortunatly I also can't offer up a remedy at this point in time, as with any such system it will always be possible to award an opinion expressed in a message rather than the quality of the message.
Asklepion
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February 10, 2018, 04:38:06 PM
 #2606

I think closing the acceptance of new members is a logical solution. One day a month there must be a new membership and the date of this date should not be announced in advance. Every month must be a random day.

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isaevaen
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February 10, 2018, 04:38:21 PM
 #2607

In that case it would be easier to spot them

How will you differentiate between genuine users and scammers doing the same thing (sending invitations) ?
Grafschmidt
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February 10, 2018, 04:51:01 PM
Merited by The Pharmacist (1), sonulrk (1)
 #2608

no one merit i only got 5 merit from someone thats sucks really
The merit system is a dead failure.
It only allows the advanced members to gain more bounty rewards...I'm sure that is why it was imposed...


People are obviously not understanding the merit system. This is intended for people to stop posting generic comments, spam, one line comments or useless opinions just to rank up. There's nothing wrong with one line comments, there are multiple times that is much better to be concise and straight forward and you can still have merit for an opinion like that. That's why the name "merit" you have to earn it. You have to participative, more collaborative, more useful, help each other and grow as a community. Merit is not a dead failure, is a system that will make this community grow as a whole with content and users that make a valuable forum.

You getting angry with more "advance members" because they were lucky to register their accounts long ago and be able to achieve the rank they currently are easier, is the same as if you would get angry of people grabbing bitcoin at $10. Of course it was easier to have 100 BTC back then, is much harder now with more people interested in it. The same goes with a higher rank in the forum, the more people are interested in it, the more scarce and valuable it becomes. Simple golden rule of supply and demand. Time is the most valuable measure of opportunity you can have.

Yeah, in theory you post "quality" messages, you'll get rewarded.

In reality people do not send a lot of merit, slowing down by at least 100x the ranking up, for any reason - there are few merit sources here and they get a refill once a month.
Other people will judge your posts and for any reason will not send you merit even if you'll explain why the grass is green and the wind is never seen...
It won't stop in any way the spam.
Merit won't induce me to browse this forum and partecipate in any discussion I just don't want to partecipate.
And that won't stop legendary that just want to cheat, not to cheat.

"Government, like dress, is the badge of lost innocence".
Thomas Paine, 1776.
Grafschmidt
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February 10, 2018, 04:52:41 PM
 #2609

In that case it would be easier to spot them

How will you differentiate between genuine users and scammers doing the same thing (sending invitations) ?

That's the whole purpose of the merit system: giving you a tool to do it.

Fact is, you can't.
And what's more, those "scammers" are much likely already inside the system.

"Government, like dress, is the badge of lost innocence".
Thomas Paine, 1776.
Piggy
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February 10, 2018, 05:07:53 PM
Last edit: February 10, 2018, 05:19:45 PM by Piggy
 #2610

In that case it would be easier to spot them

How will you differentiate between genuine users and scammers doing the same thing (sending invitations) ?

Genuine users wont post "nice project" or any two random words message

Like this https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2068554.msg30006038#msg30006038
gopaljiverma
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February 10, 2018, 05:38:52 PM
 #2611

Yeah, in theory you post "quality" messages, you'll get rewarded.

Cannot say about others but I posted some threads which I think will benefit the forum and got some merits from different members of the forum. So, I got rewarded for quality posts in "practical."

In reality people do not send a lot of merit, slowing down by at least 100x the ranking up, for any reason - there are few merit sources here and they get a refill once a month.
Other people will judge your posts and for any reason will not send you merit even if you'll explain why the grass is green and the wind is never seen...
It won't stop in any way the spam.
Merit won't induce me to browse this forum and partecipate in any discussion I just don't want to partecipate.
And that won't stop legendary that just want to cheat, not to cheat.

If the admin feels that merit sources are not enough to cover the forum entirely, he will simple add more. Regarding senior members cheating, I agree with you. In case, such members are found, there should be some change in current system to punish them as well.
athanz88
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February 10, 2018, 05:54:03 PM
 #2612

no one merit i only got 5 merit from someone thats sucks really
The merit system is a dead failure.
It only allows the advanced members to gain more bounty rewards...I'm sure that is why it was imposed...

This is Bitcoin forum. Not a bounty forum. The fact that most complainers seem to be focused on making money is a good indication that the merit system is a step in the right direction.

I don't mean any offence to either the merit recipient or the merit givers. But I believe this post is an example of the unexpected consequences of the merit system as implemented:

The post of suchmoon has received a rather significant amount of merits, which, I dare to say, reflect agreement with the opinion, rather than the quality of the post.

Again, this is not to critique the comment of suchmoon. I hole-heartedly agree with it. Also, everybody has their own reasons why they give their sMerits to somebody.

But I also don't believe the comment provided can be regarded as a "high-quality" post, in the original sense of what the sMerit system is expected to encourage.

If the merits are then being used to award simply for stating an opinion one is agreement with, then over time this will lead to the messages becoming biased towards the "majority opinion", and will not have much relevance with the quality of the post per se. (Again, I don't mean to imply that the post above is bad quality. But I also fail to see that it would be of such high quality deserving all the merits it received)

Unfortunatly I also can't offer up a remedy at this point in time, as with any such system it will always be possible to award an opinion expressed in a message rather than the quality of the message.

You re missing one point out there, which is, an account cant give merits all the time, they will run out of their merit points, unless they are a "merit sources". So there will be no much biases on this merit system i guess. The key here is obviously to give merit to the right person, and who is that right person?
1. Who posts a quality posts.
2. Has a great forum manner.
3. Can decide a good posts out of bias.
I guess they must fulfill this 3 category to a user before they give the merits. So the person who are given the merit can pass the merit to the right person too, and in the end the merits will be circulated in to right person and will diminish people who only join this forum to rank up and gain money. And for now, i guess the old high rank members/users are persons that have enough knowledge in crypto and have good forum manner so thats why some of them are sources, so just let them do their job and hope they will do it perfectly.
Dont get me wrong, i love getting money from this forum, but i am not like people who only focusing this forum to earn money, and when they can not get the money, they will whine about it in this forum because of merit. For all people who whine about it, you are a worker not a boss here, the boss can search other people who has more knowledge and experience and replace you, in fact, there are lot of people who can do that besides you, if you dont step up your game, no one will hire you in the end.
suchmoon
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February 10, 2018, 06:29:08 PM
 #2613

If the problem was the shitposters why not act on that? Peraphs closing the forum to new users, banning all the shitposters? And then adding an invite system maybe? Or something else?

This is acting on shitposters. Except instead of having moderators do it this system attempts to spread the responsibility to the users.

That may be true. There's twitter to spam wide and large. And facebook. That place is a huge advertisement banner.

But I know that now I'm stuck at senior member. I won't get merit because it's held like Gollum holds the One.
You may say I will get merit if I post quality text.
Except for the fact there is a lot of shitposts everywhere with a lot of merit.

And as far as I can see, only high ranked people are enthusiastic about this merit. I wonder why.

Yet you already got 14 merits in 2 or 3 weeks since merits have been implemented, which is not far off the regular activity rank-up pace.

I don't mean any offence to either the merit recipient or the merit givers. But I believe this post is an example of the unexpected consequences of the merit system as implemented:

The post of suchmoon has received a rather significant amount of merits, which, I dare to say, reflect agreement with the opinion, rather than the quality of the post.

Again, this is not to critique the comment of suchmoon. I hole-heartedly agree with it. Also, everybody has their own reasons why they give their sMerits to somebody.

But I also don't believe the comment provided can be regarded as a "high-quality" post, in the original sense of what the sMerit system is expected to encourage.

If the merits are then being used to award simply for stating an opinion one is agreement with, then over time this will lead to the messages becoming biased towards the "majority opinion", and will not have much relevance with the quality of the post per se. (Again, I don't mean to imply that the post above is bad quality. But I also fail to see that it would be of such high quality deserving all the merits it received)

Unfortunatly I also can't offer up a remedy at this point in time, as with any such system it will always be possible to award an opinion expressed in a message rather than the quality of the message.

I don't think individual anecdotes are reflective of the overall state of the merit system. I could come up with dozens or even hundreds of "unfairly" merited (or not merited) posts but the idea is that in the LONG RUN this system will help to separate egregious shitposters (who should never rank up) from slightly shitposting but generally harmless trolls (who will likely rank up eventually) and from truly constructive/helpful/valuable users (who will likely collect most merits but will also spread most sMerits).

I can't speak for others but I have merited some posts that I disagree with or have no personal opinion about. I'm not naive to expect that everyone will do this all the time, however I have no doubt that there are ways to earn merits without bowing to the majority, whatever that is.

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February 11, 2018, 12:09:20 AM
Merited by JayJuanGee (1), gslgroup (1)
 #2614

The merit system is aimed to improve posts quality and this is a positive trend. However, walking around the forum I see that many high-rank members haven’t yet achieved any merit. Thinking about this situation I have some ideas to share:
1) It seems like many forum members do not correspond to their ranks. If Hero member can’t produce any valuable post (e.g. posts that do not receive merit) what can this situation mean?
2) Is it true that Full Member achieved according to new rules will be much more helpful for community than vast majority of old Heroes? I believe yes!
3) It is interesting why is there such a big gap between Member and Full Member (you need 10 times more merit)? Recently it was needed only to double activity score…
4) It is interesting if somebody tried to estimate the average forum correlation between posts made and merits received? Is it 1 to 1000? More? And what if we take into consideration that many merits are granted within topics discussing them? (let alone “internal” or “friends” transfer).
5) Is it only my impression that this system (in the introduced form) is aimed not only to fight for posts quality?
JayJuanGee
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How much alt coin diversification is needed? 0%?


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February 11, 2018, 12:35:24 AM
 #2615

The merit system is aimed to improve posts quality and this is a positive trend. However, walking around the forum I see that many high-rank members haven’t yet achieved any merit. Thinking about this situation I have some ideas to share:
1) It seems like many forum members do not correspond to their ranks. If Hero member can’t produce any valuable post (e.g. posts that do not receive merit) what can this situation mean?
2) Is it true that Full Member achieved according to new rules will be much more helpful for community than vast majority of old Heroes? I believe yes!
3) It is interesting why is there such a big gap between Member and Full Member (you need 10 times more merit)? Recently it was needed only to double activity score…
4) It is interesting if somebody tried to estimate the average forum correlation between posts made and merits received? Is it 1 to 1000? More? And what if we take into consideration that many merits are granted within topics discussing them? (let alone “internal” or “friends” transfer).
5) Is it only my impression that this system (in the introduced form) is aimed not only to fight for posts quality?


Even though this post is good, it looks like you have a lot of one liner posts, so it may be difficult to earn merit in certain sections and when there is not very much substance to your posts.

I gave one merit for this post, and since your writing is decent, you may be able to find ways to get 9 more merits based on your post quality.

Put BTC here: 35EVP8EePt8dyvKHaB7bXaRmKLm22YgRCA

How much alt coin diversification is necessary? if you are investing in Bitcoin, then perhaps 0%?
albermaze
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February 11, 2018, 12:54:15 AM
 #2616

Many forum participants have noted that starting position on merit points isn't fair. Some people received merits without doing anything and other people will have to work hard to get at least some. I agree with this position, however I have constructive offer:
Let’s show real number of received merits. If Hero received zero merit that means that 0 merits should be displayed for his account. Why forum gives them 500 if they have earned nothing? In such a case everyone will see the real situation.
JayJuanGee
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How much alt coin diversification is needed? 0%?


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February 11, 2018, 01:11:55 AM
 #2617

Many forum participants have noted that starting position on merit points isn't fair. Some people received merits without doing anything and other people will have to work hard to get at least some. I agree with this position, however I have constructive offer:
Let’s show real number of received merits. If Hero received zero merit that means that 0 merits should be displayed for his account. Why forum gives them 500 if they have earned nothing? In such a case everyone will see the real situation.

Hero members received 500 because of grandfather clause concept.  You received 10 merits, as a member, based on grandfather clause concept.

You are living in a fantasy world if you believe that a new system would start from zero, so any proposal that you were to make should attempt to figure out a way to start from something rather than your current bold (to be noticed) proposal of starting from zero.  By the way, you are assuming a non-existent situation when you say that some members were given merit based on nothing - and you can read the rationale in the OP - that stated that it was an attempt to approximate the minimum merit of each rank.., so merit was given based on an already existing system that was change, rather than based on nothing, as you fantastically proclaim.

Put BTC here: 35EVP8EePt8dyvKHaB7bXaRmKLm22YgRCA

How much alt coin diversification is necessary? if you are investing in Bitcoin, then perhaps 0%?
albermaze
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February 11, 2018, 01:24:53 AM
 #2618

Many forum participants have noted that starting position on merit points isn't fair. Some people received merits without doing anything and other people will have to work hard to get at least some. I agree with this position, however I have constructive offer:
Let’s show real number of received merits. If Hero received zero merit that means that 0 merits should be displayed for his account. Why forum gives them 500 if they have earned nothing? In such a case everyone will see the real situation.

Hero members received 500 because of grandfather clause concept.  You received 10 merits, as a member, based on grandfather clause concept.

You are living in a fantasy world if you believe that a new system would start from zero, so any proposal that you were to make should attempt to figure out a way to start from something rather than your current bold (to be noticed) proposal of starting from zero.  By the way, you are assuming a non-existent situation when you say that some members were given merit based on nothing - and you can read the rationale in the OP - that stated that it was an attempt to approximate the minimum merit of each rank.., so merit was given based on an already existing system that was change, rather than based on nothing, as you fantastically proclaim.
That is not actually true.I am living in a real world and here is a guest with the aim to find information and share thoughts. The old ranks were achieved due to activity. Merit is a new phenomenon why should we not start from 0? I am not proposing the re-ranking, I just offer fair approach. Imagine the situation in a year when there will be two Full Members with 100 merits (but one recieved it initially and the another achieved them). Can you give a sound reason not to show only achieved merits? It seems that it will reflect the real situation and we will have Members with 25 merits and Legendaries with 0 merits? Why not?
Praesidium
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February 11, 2018, 02:00:02 AM
Merited by JayJuanGee (1)
 #2619

Many forum participants have noted that starting position on merit points isn't fair. Some people received merits without doing anything and other people will have to work hard to get at least some. I agree with this position, however I have constructive offer:
Let’s show real number of received merits. If Hero received zero merit that means that 0 merits should be displayed for his account. Why forum gives them 500 if they have earned nothing? In such a case everyone will see the real situation.

It is because the difference in activity and contribution. Do you expect that Member will get the same initial merit with Heroes and others while they are only 3 months here in the forum, meanwhile the heroes and other ranks had been here for years and contributed to the forum very well. It is logical that high rank will receive high initial merit than the lower ones.
itranslate
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February 11, 2018, 02:02:06 AM
 #2620

I gave one merit for this post, and since your writing is decent, you may be able to find ways to get 9 more merits based on your post quality.
Thank you for replying on my thoughts. Really appreciate this.

Even though this post is good, it looks like you have a lot of one liner posts, so it may be difficult to earn merit in certain sections and when there is not very much substance to your posts.
Yes I have a lot of liner posts as I am just starting to study cryptocurrencies. I don't yet feel to be able to produce high quality posts on specific cryptocurrency issues.
But it seems that I have enough another life-based background to see that something wrong with merit system. I dare to ask a question:

If we look into the post #3 to this thread
I already don't like the way clicking on +merit takes you away from the thread.  Can you please have it open in a new window?
What is the super value of this post that respective members of this forum gave it more than 30 merit points? At the same time people making original Announcement of cool projects recieve 0 merit
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