[NEM] NEM -New Economy Movement - No Envy Movement - Updates+Discussion thread

[patmast3r]

is there any timetable for releasing some product?

See more and more NXT clones being out. Any progress on NEM?

Theres no definitive timeline no. NXT clones are already coming out because they are just that - clones.

[1714220932]

1714220932

[MrPortMan]

I think a fair starting price for each stake is between 0.2-0.5 BTC. The stakes for the waiting list guys will be 0.1 BTC, so a 0.2 BTC starting price seems fair to me.

But fairness doesn't seem to have a clear meaning in this situation.

Fairness relative to what, to buyers or to the devs and community who put a lot of hard work into this?

The call to participation was 1st phase to get in, waiting list is 2nd phase and auction is whole different matter.

With the auction we should aim to prepare for the market and set a real price for the stakes. The call for participation and auction should not be put together and compared because they are different things with different purpose.

Anyway, I would be very interested to hear Utopians view on this matter.

One question. If you auction 2 identical Macbook on Ebay at the same time, which one will yield higher price ? the one set up with a no reserve auction or the one set up with a 1000$ reserved auction ?

Interesting question. I think the answer here may depend a lot on the product at hand. If it is a Macbook, given the brand Apple has build, the product may indeed sell even better without a starting price. But that is not because the starting price is the most important factor, but rather, as I said, due to the great brand Apple has built and the strong demand that exists for their products. Indeed, I think the absence of a starting price when a great brand and enough demand exist, would gather a lot more people around an auction simply because the auction will feed their impression that they could buy a high value product for a cheap price, even though in the end they may pay more than they would have if the price was fixed.

So the natural question that arises now is do we have a strong enough brand to benefit from an absence of price or should we start with at least half the price we would expect to be minimum, as a safety precaution?

I was also thinking about Nassim Taleb's(some of you may be familiar to his ideas) antifragility theory and I think our aim should be to create an antifragile or at least resilient/robust market. Meaning that we should not fear the dumpers, but take them into account and even encourage(incentivize) them to get it over with as soon as possible. In fact, there may be some people who have received a stake but don't intend to help or keep it and so through this natural selection process the real supporters hold and contribute to the value of the movement while the dumpers exit and help us grow even faster by decreasing the risk to big dumping happening further down the road.

Пoлнocтью paздeляю этy тoчкy зpeния. + 1
Haдo дaть пpoдaть cвoи дoли вceм ктo xoчeт в caмoм нaчaлe иx пpoдaть. Дo cтapтa тopгoв нa биpжe. Чepeз ayкциoн.

Я пpeдлaгaю вceм, ктo жeлaeт пpoдaть cвoи дoли, пpинять yчacтиe в чecтнoм ayкциoнe, в peзyльтaтe кoтopoгo вы пpoдaдитe cвoи дoли ecли вы иx тaк xoтитe пpoдaть и нa цeнe этo пoтoм нe бyдeт oтpaжaтьcя, пoтoмy чтo cливaть мoнeтy пoтoм нa биpжax yжe нeкoмy бyдeт и oнa имeeт шaнcы пoйти в pocт тaк кaк вce тe, ктo xoтeли пpoдaть cвoи дoли, oни иx пpoдaдyт eщё дo нaчaлa тopгoв нa биpжax, нa ayкциoнe.

Пpeдлaгaю ayкциoн cдeлaть мeтoдoм пoвeшeния cтaвoк. Haпpимep, лoт 1000000 Nem = 5 BTC. Haчaлo ayкциoнa. Ктo-тo cтaвит cтaвкy 5.1 BTC, нaчинaeт oтcчитывaтьcя тaймep 5 минyт. Ecли в тeчeнии 5 минyт никтo нe cдeлaeт cтaвкy cкaжeм 5.2 BTC, тo лoт 1000000 Nem yxoдит пo цeнe 5.1 BTC. И в тaкoм дyxe нyжнo вecти ayкциoн пo нapacтaющeй цeнe. Taким oбpaзoм y людeй бyдeт aзapт кyпить дoли, пoтoмy чтo пocлe этoгo ayкциoнa вce зaинтepecoвaнныe cтopoны, кoтopыe xoтят пpoдaть мoнeтy в caмoм нaчaлe пpoдaдyтcя и цeнa пoтoм нa биpжax бyдeт идти тoлькo ввepx и ввepx, пoтoмy чтo никтo нe бyдeт пpoдaвaть мoнeтy пo цeнe нижe пoкyпки.

Я зa ayкциoн. Я зa тo, чтoбы чepeз ayкциoн вce зaинтepecoвaнныe в пpoдaжe cвoиx дoлeй пpoдaлиcь. Дyмaю 2 нeдeли нaм xвaтит вceм для тoгo чтoбы пpoвecти этoт ayкциoн, пocлe нeгo yжe нaчнyтcя тopги нa кpyпныx биpжax и цeнa дoлжнa бyдeт пoйти тoлькo ввepx, пoтoмy чтo кyпившиe дoпycтим дoли пo 5 BTC, бyдyт иx пpoдaвaть yжe пo бoлee выcoкoй цeнe, нo никaк нe нижe.

Completely I share this point of view. + 1
It is necessary to allow to sell the shares to all who wants to sell at the very beginning of them. Before start of the auction at the exchange. Through auction.

I offer all who wishes to sell the shares, to take part in honest auction as a result of which you will sell the shares if you so want to sell them and it won't be reflected then in the price because to merge a coin then at the exchanges there will be already nobody and it has chances to go to growth as all those who wanted to sell the shares, they will sell them even prior to the auction at the exchanges, at auction.

I suggest auction to make a method of hanging of rates. For example, lot of 1000000 Nem = 5 BTC. Auction beginning. Someone puts a rate 5.1 BTC, the timer of 5 minutes starts being counted. If within 5 minutes nobody relies we will tell 5.2 BTC, the lot of 1000000 Nem leaves at the price 5.1 BTC. And in such spirit it is necessary to conduct auction at the accruing price. Thus from people will be passion to buy shares because after that auction all interested parties which want to sell a coin right at the beginning will be on sale and the price at the exchanges will go then only up and up because nobody will sell a coin at the price below purchase.

I for auction. I for that through auction all interested in sale of the shares were on sale. 2 weeks to us think will suffice all to carry out this auction, after it the auction at the large exchanges will already begin and the price will have to go only up because the bought we will allow shares on 5 BTC, them will already sell at higher price, but in any way below.

[utopianfuture]

My vision:

I think you all expect way to much of this auction.

A high price at auction has no effect on the WHOLE batch of NEM.
Reason why it will fetch a high price is of the low amount of stakes being sold.

Imagine:

- We put 5 stakes up for auction
- 10 stakes
- 100 stakes
- 120 stakes

Which stakes do you think will fetch the highest prices?
Now think of what happens when ALL of the 3 billion NEM potentially comes available on an exchange...

Even if people know there are 3000 stakes already, they will still overbid on a small available part.

All what this will create is a high INITIAL price, NEM will skyrocket and then collapse to what people are willing to invest (long term).
Of course this initial high price will always happen, but to auction of a small part of NEM will only amplify things.

EDIT: I think we should stick to the first plan and distribute the stakes to the people in the waiting list. That will create the most fair start for everyone.

The auction is just a way for more people to join in. As you said the high initial price will happen anyway so I don't think the auction will have a huge effect on that.
We are sticking to the original plan. There are also stakes allocated to go to the waitinglist.

Wasn't the real initial plan to distribute the sockpuppet stakes to the people on the waiting list?

two reasons: sockpuppets are in the waiting list as well so the actual qualified stakeholders are way lower than what it seems in the waiting list; not all available stakes now are refund stakes. Some are from eliminating cases of 1 account/ multiple stakes, mistakes, eliminating hash stealing frauds etc.  Having a part of NEM going to auction is fine since it gives a variety to NEM initial funding and constituency.

[dasource]

One question. If you auction 2 identical Macbook on Ebay at the same time, which one will yield higher price ? the one set up with a no reserve auction or the one set up with a 1000$ reserved auction ?

As odd as it sounds, no reserve always seem to yield higher price.

[utopianfuture]

I think a fair starting price for each stake is between 0.2-0.5 BTC. The stakes for the waiting list guys will be 0.1 BTC, so a 0.2 BTC starting price seems fair to me.

But fairness doesn't seem to have a clear meaning in this situation.

Fairness relative to what, to buyers or to the devs and community who put a lot of hard work into this?

The call to participation was 1st phase to get in, waiting list is 2nd phase and auction is whole different matter.

With the auction we should aim to prepare for the market and set a real price for the stakes. The call for participation and auction should not be put together and compared because they are different things with different purpose.

Anyway, I would be very interested to hear Utopians view on this matter.

One question. If you auction 2 identical Macbook on Ebay at the same time, which one will yield higher price ? the one set up with a no reserve auction or the one set up with a 1000$ reserved auction ?

Interesting question. I think the answer here may depend a lot on the product at hand. If it is a Macbook, given the brand Apple has build, the product may indeed sell even better without a starting price. But that is not because the starting price is the most important factor, but rather, as I said, due to the great brand Apple has built and the strong demand that exists for their products. Indeed, I think the absence of a starting price when a great brand and enough demand exist, would gather a lot more people around an auction simply because the auction will feed their impression that they could buy a high value product for a cheap price, even though in the end they may pay more than they would have if the price was fixed.

So the natural question that arises now is do we have a strong enough brand to benefit from an absence of price or should we start with at least half the price we would expect to be minimum, as a safety precaution?

I was also thinking about Nassim Taleb's(some of you may be familiar to his ideas) antifragility theory and I think our aim should be to create an antifragile or at least resilient/robust market. Meaning that we should not fear the dumpers, but take them into account and even encourage(incentivize) them to get it over with as soon as possible. In fact, there may be some people who have received a stake but don't intend to help or keep it and so through this natural selection process the real supporters hold and contribute to the value of the movement while the dumpers exit and help us grow even faster by decreasing the risk to big dumping happening further down the road.

I agree. Our initial thought is to offer the first auction on the Alpha release to avoid scam accusation and we will take some times to build the brand up to that point. The likely method of auction is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiunit_auction. We will write a more detail guidelines at least one week before the auction but that's something everyone can study first if they are interested in the auction. Uniform auction have been used for U.S Treasury auctions. You can read about the theories and empirical studies of this type of auction here http://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/fin-mkts/Documents/final.pdf  and here http://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/fin-mkts/Documents/upas2.pdf

[shaman2000]

just simple question- when will be any Alfa or anything for us- after week, month or year???
because after many months we have just bla,bla,bla...and auction instead of just give people from waiting list stakes...
IT'S REALLY VERY PITY!!!

[utopianfuture]

One question. If you auction 2 identical Macbook on Ebay at the same time, which one will yield higher price ? the one set up with a no reserve auction or the one set up with a 1000$ reserved auction ?

As odd as it sounds, no reserve always seem to yield higher price.

That's what I observe too. The likely reason is that no reserved auction has a bigger pool of buyers and therefore more demand. Some does not enter reserved auction due to the uncertainty of wasting time even when winning a bid. There is also a certain psychological aspect that makes certain bidders want to stay away from no reserve auction.

[utopianfuture]

just simple question- when will be any Alfa or anything for us- after week, month or year???
because after many months we have just bla,bla,bla...and auction instead of just give people from waiting list stakes...
IT'S REALLY VERY PITY!!!

It is coming soon (weeks not months or years). There is a choice that does not involve complaining for anyone who loses patience as well.

[jxmhqjg]

just simple question- when will be any Alfa or anything for us- after week, month or year???
because after many months we have just bla,bla,bla...and auction instead of just give people from waiting list stakes...
IT'S REALLY VERY PITY!!!

It is coming soon (weeks not months or years). There is a choice that does not involve complaining for anyone who loses patience as well.

如果东西好，再等等也没有关系，慢工出细活。 Thank the NEM team for their hard work！

[bitsire]

One question. If you auction 2 identical Macbook on Ebay at the same time, which one will yield higher price ? the one set up with a no reserve auction or the one set up with a 1000$ reserved auction ?

As odd as it sounds, no reserve always seem to yield higher price.

That's what I observe too. The likely reason is that no reserved auction has a bigger pool of buyers and therefore more demand. Some does not enter reserved auction due to the uncertainty of wasting time even when winning a bid. There is also a certain psychological aspect that makes certain bidders want to stay away from no reserve auction.

I agree. No starting price for the NEM auction is the way to go. Let the market decide if a stake goes for 0.1 BTC or 10 BTCs!!

[Vladimircook]

One question. If you auction 2 identical Macbook on Ebay at the same time, which one will yield higher price ? the one set up with a no reserve auction or the one set up with a 1000$ reserved auction ?

As odd as it sounds, no reserve always seem to yield higher price.

That's what I observe too. The likely reason is that no reserved auction has a bigger pool of buyers and therefore more demand. Some does not enter reserved auction due to the uncertainty of wasting time even when winning a bid. There is also a certain psychological aspect that makes certain bidders want to stay away from no reserve auction.

I agree. No starting price for the NEM auction is the way to go. Let the market decide if a stake goes for 0.1 BTC or 10 BTCs!!

The market decides also if a stake will have already a certain price at the auction's start.
Better we'd set up a minimum rate for each stake and offer smaller stake units like 100000 or 10000, too.

[Chris001]

When we set the auction with no reserve this doesn't mean the stakes will sell that low.

It also doesn't mean that people think we value  NEM at zero lol.

It is quite the opposite. By setting a reserve we are putting a price on it, unless we make the reserve ridiculously high, this can hurt the value.

By placing no reserve, we are not giving the bidders a price that we think it is worth. This will give us the most potential to receive the highest bid. No one will think we think the value is zero. Bidders see that we have TRUE confidence in our product.

Think if it this way. If we set it at zero, no reserve, what are the chances of the sale finalizing at zero?

NONE

We ourselves are going to be watching the auction like hawks. If the bid was at .01 BTC a stake, I would buy them all by myself, and so would you!

So this is how the concept of the auction works.

.02 BTC, same thing would happen right, we would all buy them all.

At some point this would end, and a price would be established.

So those of you that think by setting the reserve at zero, would cause it to sell low, you have nothing to worry about because it is impossible for this to happen.

No reserve is BY FAR the best way to go.

Also, we should do it in chunks of 100,000. It will get us more participants. And I got a feeling it would cause the value rise a little more that way. Just a gut feeling there tho. lol

[Vladimircook]

eXo is coming. NXTL is as well. They are not clones. Could be tough competitors. Step up NEM dev. I trust in you.

I don't think you can compare NEM with a coin like NXTL.

Have you ever realized the distribution method of NXTL?

[ShawnLeary]

I agree. Our initial thought is to offer the first auction on the Alpha release to avoid scam accusation and we will take some times to build the brand up to that point. The likely method of auction is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiunit_auction. We will write a more detail guidelines at least one week before the auction but that's something everyone can study first if they are interested in the auction. Uniform auction have been used for U.S Treasury auctions. You can read about the theories and empirical studies of this type of auction here http://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/fin-mkts/Documents/final.pdf  and here http://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/fin-mkts/Documents/upas2.pdf

Please consider saving one final stake to be auction the day before final release, would help set market price and build momentum.  One last lucky bastard gets in

[Zimmermann]

I agree. Our initial thought is to offer the first auction on the Alpha release to avoid scam accusation and we will take some times to build the brand up to that point. The likely method of auction is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiunit_auction. We will write a more detail guidelines at least one week before the auction but that's something everyone can study first if they are interested in the auction. Uniform auction have been used for U.S Treasury auctions. You can read about the theories and empirical studies of this type of auction here http://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/fin-mkts/Documents/final.pdf  and here http://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/fin-mkts/Documents/upas2.pdf

Please consider saving one final stake to be auction the day before final release, would help set market price and build momentum.  One last lucky bastard gets in

good idea!!!! have 2 on sale day before and 1 single stake where the auction ends 1 hour before launch!

+100000 !!! 

[vytasz7]

As i understand in 1 auction you can bid for 1 stake ,but what about the other auctions if you already bought a stake ,will it be possible to participate in them as well ?

[Chris001]

UP, Pat, rest of Devs, and community,

Can we start an official Buy/Sell thread for the dumpers right now?

Let's get those that just want to dump their stake out of the way right now.

Thoughts??

[patmast3r]

UP, Pat, rest of Devs, and community,

Can we start an official Buy/Sell thread for the dumpers right now?

Let's get those that just want to dump their stake out of the way right now.

Thoughts??

Interesting idea I'm just pretty sure it wouldn't work. Maybe you can weed out a few but there are smarter dumpsters that dump periodically to get the most out of it.
Still interested to see what the rest thinks
We could give that a try.

[Chris001]

UP, Pat, rest of Devs, and community,

Can we start an official Buy/Sell thread for the dumpers right now?

Let's get those that just want to dump their stake out of the way right now.

Thoughts??

Interesting idea I'm just pretty sure it wouldn't work. Maybe you can weed out a few but there are smarter dumpsters that dump periodically to get the most out of it.
Still interested to see what the rest thinks
We could give that a try.

Well, we could at least get the stakeholders that care the least out of the movement now.

[shaman2000]

just simple question- when will be any Alfa or anything for us- after week, month or year???
because after many months we have just bla,bla,bla...and auction instead of just give people from waiting list stakes...
IT'S REALLY VERY PITY!!!

It is coming soon (weeks not months or years). There is a choice that does not involve complaining for anyone who loses patience as well.

Thank You very much for Your answer Dear UP!
Just really pity that EXO and NXTL are near on the market...
Cheers.