Russian Invasion of Ukraine[In Progress]

[be.open]

At the risk of "whatabouting", think of the protest in Iran. Police do kill protesters, and not by chance or when things get out of control, they do kill them by the hundreds and those arrested get badly beaten, again not just one or two cases, but as an official method of control and punishment without trial. Why do you think the women there are risking death when protesting? Why do you think they would rather risk dying than living under the Ayatollahs?  If you find the answer, you will be one step closer to understanding Ukraine.

Because they were paid from the funds of the US State Department, like you when you jumped on the Maidan?

The riots in Iran followed exactly the patterns of color revolutions, and enough about that here.

[TwitchySeal]

If you like Zelensky, you'll love his request for NATO to start a nuclear war. Why does he want the nukes to fly? Because he is failing against Russia in Ukraine.

Who is this Ukraine joker, anyway... who wants world nuclear war? Doesn't he realize that any scenario he dreams up, has already been thought of in Russia and all around the world?

How about the scenario where Russia fails to kill him, fails to take Kiev, gets their main battleship Sunk, Crimean bridge blown up, and after a bunch of other embarrassments finds itself on defense losing territory they thought they had secured last for good last spring, and now forced to mobilize 9 months after starting the thing they thought wouldn't even be a war by invading Ukraine .  You think Putin thought of that scenario?  Doesn't seem like it.

Putin was obviously wrong when he calculated that Biden won't risk nuclear war similar to Khruschev over Cuba missiles.
He also calculated that EU is not such vassal state to USA.

He seems intent to recalculate and fix his errors

Or maybe US intelligence has figured out that Russias Nuclear Arsenal Maintenance fund has been diverted to the Oligarch Mega Yacht and Ski Chalet fund for the past 20 years.  

Kleptocracy has it's downsides - which is the main reason Ukraine booted Putins buddy Yanukovych.

[Alik Bahshi]

If you like Zelensky, you'll love his request for NATO to start a nuclear war. Why does he want the nukes to fly? Because he is failing against Russia in Ukraine.

Who is this Ukraine joker, anyway... who wants world nuclear war? Doesn't he realize that any scenario he dreams up, has already been thought of in Russia and all around the world?

How about the scenario where Russia fails to kill him, fails to take Kiev, gets their main battleship Sunk, Crimean bridge blown up, and after a bunch of other embarrassments finds itself on defense losing territory they thought they had secured last for good last spring, and now forced to mobilize 9 months after starting the thing they thought wouldn't even be a war by invading Ukraine .  You think Putin thought of that scenario?  Doesn't seem like it.

Putin was obviously wrong when he calculated that Biden won't risk nuclear war similar to Khruschev over Cuba missiles.
He also calculated that EU is not such vassal state to USA.

He seems intent to recalculate and fix his errors

Or maybe US intelligence has figured out that Russias Nuclear Arsenal Maintenance fund has been diverted to the Oligarch Mega Yacht and Ski Chalet fund for the past 20 years.  

Kleptocracy has it's downsides - which is the main reason Ukraine booted Putins buddy Yanukovych.

Or maybe you know the reason for the defeat of Russia in other wars?

[DaRude]

Right now we're pretending to not know the difference between old Soviet junk and modern tanks? But please entertain us with your version of why NATO is not sending modern tanks to UA? Perhaps they're too busy playing Dota? Or requests just keep getting lost? Or they can send millions of 155mm shells but logistics to send tanks are just too hard? Or they're secret RU Orcs too?

It's the same old Soviet junk that Russia is planning to win the war with, or better. I still don't know why you're so obsessed with tanks - or only specific brands of tanks - as if that constitutes a worse threat to Russia than e.g. HIMARS, but Russia already lost a shitload of tanks (being captured or destroyed by Ukraine) and can't make anymore, so it doesn't really take a math genius to see where the balance shifting.

Sure let's extend all this effort for a high probability of a worse outcome? Worked so great in Afghanistan and Libya right?

I think you've missed the point. There is no "good" outcome. Let's say Putin takes Ukraine. Then he wants Poland. The whole thing starts over, just much worse.

Right how mobilized Russians with previous combat experience could possibly compare with super mega ultra warrior conscripts of Ukraine and super sober uber special forces of the 8th? mobilization wave of Ukraine?  

Not the best of your straw people. I'm talking about the Russian forces.

The 200k invasion army was supposedly better trained and better equipped and had other advantages like robust air support and still functioning supply lines. What happened to those soldiers? No one cares, let's throw another 300k into it, just with less of everything, and see how that works out. Maybe shift some generals around, yeah, that'll do it.

Are you intentionally ignoring the fact that tanks have consistently been the top request from UA, which so far has been ignored by US/EU? Oh we can't have them? Well, then we never wanted them anyway  

Sure, powers will always want to expand their spheres of influence, Russia might want Mexico but just like US wanting Ukraine, doesn't mean they should get it. (And that's the reason why China's claims on Taiwan are inevitable and only a function of time. No first world power would tolerate 2nd world power in their backyard from across the globe [see Cuba]) And if Russia is depleting they military reserves by sending them to Mexico i'd be in here arguing that Russia has no business using Mexico as their proxy, and you can be sure that US would be talking about nukes 24/7 [again see Cuba] . As far as i'm aware there are no regions in Poland where majority speak Russian language and consistently votes for pro-Putin president. Now if there were (widely accepted) elections and a pro Russian president would be elected, only to be removed in a coup with US freedom cookies, than things might be different. But as usual you're conveniently trying to compare UA to a NATO country. Pretty sure EU would be ecstatic to see things go back as they were in 2013, growing GDP, high and improving standards of living, fast-track visas with Russia with discussion of visa-free entries, access to cheap Russian resources which lets them stay competitive with China/India/US, and discussions about expanding RU resource deliveries and approving NordStream2 securing competitiveness for years to come doesn't sound like too bad of the outcome? Surely you must realize the reason for all those guaranteed buy back clauses when companies leave Russia always have to leave the door open, just in case  

Last i checked almost 1000km line of engagement still stands with RU even making some progress in some sections, surely someone is manning it or who is UA fighting against there currently? But to your point, obviously in almost 8 months of fighting both sides have lost a lot of their best units, only UA side lost a lot of its conscripts and mobilized force as well, where Russia just started to mobilize. You can pretend that mobilized UA forces of the Xth wave are somehow more "sober" or elite than the first mobilized wave of RU soldiers but that's just amusing propaganda to anyone with a brain cell.

Right now we're pretending to not know the difference between old Soviet junk and modern tanks? But please entertain us with your version of why NATO is not sending modern tanks to UA? Perhaps they're too busy playing Dota? Or requests just keep getting lost? Or they can send millions of 155mm shells but logistics to send tanks are just too hard? Or they're secret RU Orcs too?

It's the same old Soviet junk that Russia is planning to win the war with, or better. I still don't know why you're so obsessed with tanks - or only specific brands of tanks - as if that constitutes a worse threat to Russia than e.g. HIMARS, but Russia already lost a shitload of tanks (being captured or destroyed by Ukraine) and can't make anymore, so it doesn't really take a math genius to see where the balance shifting.

Sure let's extend all this effort for a high probability of a worse outcome? Worked so great in Afghanistan and Libya right?

I think you've missed the point. There is no "good" outcome. Let's say Putin takes Ukraine. Then he wants Poland. The whole thing starts over, just much worse.

Right how mobilized Russians with previous combat experience could possibly compare with super mega ultra warrior conscripts of Ukraine and super sober uber special forces of the 8th? mobilization wave of Ukraine?  

Not the best of your straw people. I'm talking about the Russian forces.

The 200k invasion army was supposedly better trained and better equipped and had other advantages like robust air support and still functioning supply lines. What happened to those soldiers? No one cares, let's throw another 300k into it, just with less of everything, and see how that works out. Maybe shift some generals around, yeah, that'll do it.

Pretty much spot on. He takes Crimea, then Easter Ukraine and the Fakepublics of the Dombas, then a corridor to the Fakepublic of Transnistria, they liberating the oppressed Russian living un Hungary, then a corridor to Konigsberg, ... From the European perspective, this has to end here and now. From the Ukrainian perspective, they do not want to be drafted as slaves, not having to survive the next Holodomor nor be the buffer for Putin's aggressions. And believe that some of the fighters in Ukraine speak well of the Commies, so Adolf Putin must have gotten something really wrong here.

Regarding soviet equipment, some people say that it is running thin, my personal take is that there is still a lot of rusty old iron. It is not fit for a modern war, but it kills when used and they do have a shitload of it. The issue is if in modern RF there is still space for a forceful recruiting of an army of slaves - Adolf Putin may have gotten that wrong too.

Slippery slope argument Haha this is a good spin, NATO playing a victim card, original! Russia is down to bare bones of RU speaking Ukraine, Kazakhstan and Belarus. So if NATO doesn't expand to these countries right now that would be a gateway to RU taking over Ireland or Canada next!   are we hoping that no one here has mental capacity to remember 2013 when UA had a pro RU president and that Transnistria has been with RU since 1990s and no one cared for that anymore than for Belarus president being the last European dictator

...In a nuclear war there is no winner. The first strike is guaranteed to be followed by a response (it could even not be a nuke, but certainly proportional and devastating)... and from there nobody knows...

Can we stop pretending that instead of protecting its members NATO countries signed up to start a nuclear Armageddon for any tactical nuclear blast in any country around the globe? I realize that that's what UA has been desperately asking for but literally no NATO general or leader of ANY NATO country agreed to anything close to that. That's not how article 5 works

RU nuke attack in UA != RU nuke attack on NATO

Edit: I'm not saying RU should nuke UA, and i'm against all nuke attacks, but distinction must be made
...

False, a response to a nuclear attack does not necessarily have to be nuclear, that has been stated over an over. It has been described as "devastating" but most likely conventional. The ICBMs are not the only nuclear option and the nuclear response is not only not the only option, it is not even the best to achieve a deterrent for tactical nukes from Russia. Do you know that the tactical nuke arsenal in US is barely 200 units, like 10 times less than RF's?

At the risk of repeating myself, I am going to quote my post. Notice that it is PREVIOUS to the Kerch bridge being destroyed.

The scenarios being considered are not around the ICBMs,
...
Please notice that "effective" and "efficient" in this context means that they can blast expensive and critical target with precision and certainty.

I am sure you can add 1+1

Sure, is a strongly worded condemnation, and another batch of sanctions against Putin's dogs would be any less devastating than any previous devastating batches of sanctions?

March 10, 2022

Russia’s economy will be ‘devastated’ by sanctions and further sanctions are under consideration, Janet Yellen says

https://www.cnn.com/2022/03/10/economy/sanctions-russia-janet-yellen/index.html
That's cause tactical nukes are pretty useless just as their non-nuke alternatives, if we ever find ourselves in a position where 10 tactical nukes are not enough for either side we all already lost. And don't fool yourself if US is openly blasting expensive and critical RU targets humanity has already lost as well, small undercover games will continue from both sides just as they have been for many years prior.

If you like Zelensky, you'll love his request for NATO to start a nuclear war. Why does he want the nukes to fly? Because he is failing against Russia in Ukraine.

Who is this Ukraine joker, anyway... who wants world nuclear war? Doesn't he realize that any scenario he dreams up, has already been thought of in Russia and all around the world?

How about the scenario where Russia fails to kill him, fails to take Kiev, gets their main battleship Sunk, Crimean bridge blown up, and after a bunch of other embarrassments finds itself on defense losing territory they thought they had secured last for good last spring, and now forced to mobilize 9 months after starting the thing they thought wouldn't even be a war by invading Ukraine .  You think Putin thought of that scenario?  Doesn't seem like it.

Putin was obviously wrong when he calculated that Biden won't risk nuclear war similar to Khruschev over Cuba missiles.
He also calculated that EU is not such vassal state to USA.

He seems intent to recalculate and fix his errors

Or maybe US intelligence has figured out that Russias Nuclear Arsenal Maintenance fund has been diverted to the Oligarch Mega Yacht and Ski Chalet fund for the past 20 years.  

Kleptocracy has it's downsides - which is the main reason Ukraine booted Putins buddy Yanukovych.

Yes let's all trust US intelligence, after all they have such excellent track record. Thank you for supporting my previous point, great example of UA supporters pushing for a nuclear war. If you're feeling extra lucky today perhaps it's best you play a lottery instead of attempting to argue for a nuclear Armageddon, would give you better odds too!

[be.open]

If you like Zelensky, you'll love his request for NATO to start a nuclear war. Why does he want the nukes to fly? Because he is failing against Russia in Ukraine.

Who is this Ukraine joker, anyway... who wants world nuclear war? Doesn't he realize that any scenario he dreams up, has already been thought of in Russia and all around the world?

How about the scenario where Russia fails to kill him, fails to take Kiev, gets their main battleship Sunk, Crimean bridge blown up, and after a bunch of other embarrassments finds itself on defense losing territory they thought they had secured last for good last spring, and now forced to mobilize 9 months after starting the thing they thought wouldn't even be a war by invading Ukraine .  You think Putin thought of that scenario?  Doesn't seem like it.

Russia's response to the terrorist attack on the Crimean bridge was quick, but it can hardly be called rash. As a result of massive missile strikes, electrical substations with a capacity of 330 kW were damaged throughout Ukraine. This forced Ukraine to stop exporting electricity to the EU and led to blackouts in many parts of Ukraine, but this is not dramatic damage to critical infrastructure. If 750KW substations had been targeted for strikes, Ukraine would have been plunged into darkness for a long time, and these damages would have been much more difficult to repair. The prospect of meeting winter without electricity, heat, water, light and the Internet is not very tempting. No country can survive winter without heating and electricity, even at minus 5 degrees.

Russia's problem is that it is still conducting a special operation in Ukraine without taking off its white gloves. And Ukraine, in response, is fighting with all its might, not choosing the means to achieve its goals. For the most part, Ukrainians hate Russians, and Russians consider Ukrainians to be a brotherly people. For Russia, this is not an advantageous position, even taking into account its multiple superiority in strength.

[TwitchySeal]

If you like Zelensky, you'll love his request for NATO to start a nuclear war. Why does he want the nukes to fly? Because he is failing against Russia in Ukraine.

Who is this Ukraine joker, anyway... who wants world nuclear war? Doesn't he realize that any scenario he dreams up, has already been thought of in Russia and all around the world?

How about the scenario where Russia fails to kill him, fails to take Kiev, gets their main battleship Sunk, Crimean bridge blown up, and after a bunch of other embarrassments finds itself on defense losing territory they thought they had secured last for good last spring, and now forced to mobilize 9 months after starting the thing they thought wouldn't even be a war by invading Ukraine .  You think Putin thought of that scenario?  Doesn't seem like it.

Putin was obviously wrong when he calculated that Biden won't risk nuclear war similar to Khruschev over Cuba missiles.
He also calculated that EU is not such vassal state to USA.

He seems intent to recalculate and fix his errors

Or maybe US intelligence has figured out that Russias Nuclear Arsenal Maintenance fund has been diverted to the Oligarch Mega Yacht and Ski Chalet fund for the past 20 years.  

Kleptocracy has it's downsides - which is the main reason Ukraine booted Putins buddy Yanukovych.

Yes let's all trust US intelligence, after all they have such excellent track record. Thank you for supporting my previous point, great example of UA supporters pushing for a nuclear war. If you're feeling extra lucky today perhaps it's best you play a lottery instead of attempting to argue for a nuclear Armageddon, would give you better odds too!

When you're thinking about all the evil America did in the past decades, and doing those mental triple back flips to get to the place where all those bad things make Russia justified in starting a war with Ukraine, does Stalin ever pop into your head?   The guy just rounded up hundreds or thousands of people at a time...and executed them.  Almost 1 million citizens of his own country were executed.  He intentionally caused multiple famines that killed millions of Ukrainians. 10's of millions of people were murdered on his orders.  

For an American President to come close to matching the amount of pain and suffering that Stalin intentionally caused, they would have to first seize pretty much all political power.  And even then, it would take years to get to the level that Stalin did.  

That hasn't happened yet to America.  It could start to happen some day...but it hasn't yet.  

Appears it's started to happen in Russia though.  

[Branko]

When you're thinking about all the evil America did in the past decades, and doing those mental triple back flips to get to the place where all those bad things make Russia justified in starting a war with Ukraine, does Stalin ever pop into your head?   The guy just rounded up hundreds or thousands of people at a time...and executed them.  Almost 1 million citizens of his own country were executed.  He intentionally caused multiple famines that killed millions of Ukrainians. 10's of millions of people were murdered on his orders.  

For an American President to come close to matching the amount of pain and suffering that Stalin intentionally caused, they would have to first seize pretty much all political power.  And even then, it would take years to get to the level that Stalin did.  

That hasn't happened yet to America.  It could start to happen some day...but it hasn't yet.  

Appears it's started to happen in Russia though.  

You have to count better

http://www.spectrezine.org/global/chomsky.html


"Overcoming amnesia, suppose we now apply the methodology of the Black Book and its reviewers to the full story, not just the doctrinally acceptable half. We therefore conclude that in India the democratic capitalist "experiment" since 1947 has caused more deaths than in the entire history of the "colossal, wholly failed...experiment" of Communism everywhere since 1917: over 100 million deaths by 1979, tens of millions more since, in India alone. The "criminal indictment" of the "democratic capitalist experiment" becomes harsher still if we turn to its effects after the fall of Communism: millions of corpses in Russia, to take one case, as Russia followed the confident prescription of the World Bank that "Countries that liberalise rapidly and extensively turn around more quickly [than those that do not]," returning to something like what it had been before World War I, a picture familiar throughout the "third world." But "you can't make an omelette without broken eggs," as Stalin would have said. The indictment becomes far harsher if we consider these vast areas that remained under Western tutelage, yielding a truly "colossal" record of skeletons and "absolutely futile, pointless and inexplicable suffering" (Ryan). The indictment takes on further force when we add to the account the countries devastated by the direct assaults of Western power, and its clients, during the same years."

[paxmao]

At the risk of "whatabouting", think of the protest in Iran. Police do kill protesters, and not by chance or when things get out of control, they do kill them by the hundreds and those arrested get badly beaten, again not just one or two cases, but as an official method of control and punishment without trial. Why do you think the women there are risking death when protesting? Why do you think they would rather risk dying than living under the Ayatollahs?  If you find the answer, you will be one step closer to understanding Ukraine.

Because they were paid from the funds of the US State Department, like you when you jumped on the Maidan?

The riots in Iran followed exactly the patterns of color revolutions, and enough about that here.

Getting paid does not hold you in your position when things get hard. You may ask your slave army about it, they understand that money does not solve everything.

If you do not know where to find them, they are in the road to Moscow.

...
Sure, is a strongly worded condemnation, and another batch of sanctions against Putin's dogs would be any less devastating than any previous devastating batches of sanctions?
...

"Devastating" does not stand for "sanctions" on this case, but something much worse. That is clear to anyone.

...
Sure, powers will always want to expand their spheres of influence, Russia might want Mexico but just like US wanting Ukraine, doesn't mean they should get it. (And that's the reason why China's claims on Taiwan are inevitable and only a function of time. No first world power would tolerate 2nd world power in their backyard from across the globe [see Cuba]) And if Russia is depleting they military reserves by sending them to Mexico i'd be in here arguing that Russia has no business using Mexico as their proxy, and you can be sure that US would be talking about nukes 24/7 [again see Cuba] . As far as i'm aware there are no regions in Poland where majority speak Russian language and consistently votes for pro-Putin president. Now if there were (widely accepted) elections and a pro Russian president would be elected, only to be removed in a coup with US freedom cookies, than things might be different. But as usual you're conveniently trying to compare UA to a NATO country. Pretty sure EU would be ecstatic to see things go back as they were in 2013, growing GDP, high and improving standards of living, fast-track visas with Russia with discussion of visa-free entries, access to cheap Russian resources which lets them stay competitive with China/India/US, and discussions about expanding RU resource deliveries and approving NordStream2 securing competitiveness for years to come doesn't sound like too bad of the outcome? Surely you must realize the reason for all those guaranteed buy back clauses when companies leave Russia always have to leave the door open, just in case  
...

Again, playing the saloon geo-strategist - the problem being that this should not be about the ruling elites of RF or US wanting a land grab, but about the future of Ukrainians. Based on the historic attitude of Russia towards anyone that is not Russia and their use an abuse of Ukraine (Chernobyl, Holodomor, burnt land tactics,...), they are better governing themselves, despite having plenty of things to solve.

Of course companies will go back to the RF if they can, once sanctions are lifted and the war ends. What would need to happen for the sanctions to be lifted and the war ended? I will leave it there for you.

[suchmoon]

Are you intentionally ignoring the fact that tanks have consistently been the top request from UA, which so far has been ignored by US/EU? Oh we can't have them? Well, then we never wanted them anyway  

That doesn't explain why delivery of tanks would justify a nuclear response but whatever. I never expected logic from Russian propaganda so carry on.

Mexico
Cuba
Taiwan
China
India

Makes me wonder if you got confused which thread you're posting in or is it just a larger-than-usual dose of whataboutism.

Anyway, after 8 months of killing predominantly Russian-speaking population it should be clear by now that Putin didn't come there to protect the Russian language but if you want to keep living in that illusion that's fine. For sane people though, all that BS doesn't mean that Ukraine can just roll over and Putin will magically become nice and friendly and will no longer threaten or invade other countries like Georgia or Moldova. That's why Ukraine is being supported in this fight and Russia is becoming a pariah state.

Last i checked almost 1000km line of engagement still stands with RU even making some progress in some sections

Must've been a long time since you last checked it, let me help you.


(maps from https://liveuamap.com)

[TwitchySeal]

You have to count better

You have to read better?  Or are you saying Colin Powel, or any American intentionally had 100 million people killed and so compared to them Stalin wasn't that bad?

[paxmao]

If you like Zelensky, you'll love his request for NATO to start a nuclear war. Why does he want the nukes to fly? Because he is failing against Russia in Ukraine.

Who is this Ukraine joker, anyway... who wants world nuclear war? Doesn't he realize that any scenario he dreams up, has already been thought of in Russia and all around the world?

How about the scenario where Russia fails to kill him, fails to take Kiev, gets their main battleship Sunk, Crimean bridge blown up, and after a bunch of other embarrassments finds itself on defense losing territory they thought they had secured last for good last spring, and now forced to mobilize 9 months after starting the thing they thought wouldn't even be a war by invading Ukraine .  You think Putin thought of that scenario?  Doesn't seem like it.

Putin was obviously wrong when he calculated that Biden won't risk nuclear war similar to Khruschev over Cuba missiles.
He also calculated that EU is not such vassal state to USA.

He seems intent to recalculate and fix his errors

And there we go to the same baseline: if Adolf Putin invades Ukraine is not his fault, it is the dark powers of the capitalism that forced him. If he speaks of using the nuclear capacity, it is not his fault, it is somehow Biden's, if he throws nearly 80 missiles in a day is not his fault, it is because he is forced to and so on.

This is becoming ridiculous.

[xandry]

After all, the sanctions were done by the US and Nato countries to at least weaken Russia... even though they backfired.

What kind of reverse effect are you talking about? Maybe products have become cheaper in Russia or have they started producing something new? Tell me, please. After all, maybe we in Russia do not know any serious advantages of living here.

[DaRude]

If you like Zelensky, you'll love his request for NATO to start a nuclear war. Why does he want the nukes to fly? Because he is failing against Russia in Ukraine.

Who is this Ukraine joker, anyway... who wants world nuclear war? Doesn't he realize that any scenario he dreams up, has already been thought of in Russia and all around the world?

How about the scenario where Russia fails to kill him, fails to take Kiev, gets their main battleship Sunk, Crimean bridge blown up, and after a bunch of other embarrassments finds itself on defense losing territory they thought they had secured last for good last spring, and now forced to mobilize 9 months after starting the thing they thought wouldn't even be a war by invading Ukraine .  You think Putin thought of that scenario?  Doesn't seem like it.

Putin was obviously wrong when he calculated that Biden won't risk nuclear war similar to Khruschev over Cuba missiles.
He also calculated that EU is not such vassal state to USA.

He seems intent to recalculate and fix his errors

Or maybe US intelligence has figured out that Russias Nuclear Arsenal Maintenance fund has been diverted to the Oligarch Mega Yacht and Ski Chalet fund for the past 20 years.  

Kleptocracy has it's downsides - which is the main reason Ukraine booted Putins buddy Yanukovych.

Yes let's all trust US intelligence, after all they have such excellent track record. Thank you for supporting my previous point, great example of UA supporters pushing for a nuclear war. If you're feeling extra lucky today perhaps it's best you play a lottery instead of attempting to argue for a nuclear Armageddon, would give you better odds too!

When you're thinking about all the evil America did in the past decades, and doing those mental triple back flips to get to the place where all those bad things make Russia justified in starting a war with Ukraine, does Stalin ever pop into your head?   The guy just rounded up hundreds or thousands of people at a time...and executed them.  Almost 1 million citizens of his own country were executed.  He intentionally caused multiple famines that killed millions of Ukrainians. 10's of millions of people were murdered on his orders.  

For an American President to come close to matching the amount of pain and suffering that Stalin intentionally caused, they would have to first seize pretty much all political power.  And even then, it would take years to get to the level that Stalin did.  

That hasn't happened yet to America.  It could start to happen some day...but it hasn't yet.  

Appears it's started to happen in Russia though.  

I'm not able to follow your logic here, you went from alluding that Russian nukes are non functional to Stalin? Where's suchmoon yelling whataboutism!?!
To reiterate my point, i view this conflict as just further expansion of NATO, or more specifically, US trying to pull Ukraine from Russia's sphere of influence with soft power (handing out freedom cookies during the coup of pro RU president in 2014). Everyone knew that there was no way Russia could compete with US on the soft power field, and that Russia couldn't afford to loose Ukraine, so doesn't take a political think tank to figure out the odds of tanks rolling. Germany and France did a good job and managed to stop Russian tanks from rolling back in 2014 and convinced UA to sign Minsk agreements which would ultimately mean Donbas would stay with Russia. Ukraine agreed, won some time which US used to litter the country with weapons, after receiving all the weapons UA did a 180 turn and started to pretend that now they can take Crimea back. RU finally started to realize that they were played, demanded written guarantees from US that NATO won't expand etc... and US pretty much told RU to fuck off, finally as a last ditch effort to make its intentions crystal clear RU did that idiotic show of force with a column of tanks to Kyiv, we all know how that turned out. So now here we are, was this the desired outcome for EU or RU? Clearly not, as both expected UA to just fold in 3 days of posturing, instead we now have this prolonged conflict ultimately leading to even worse outcome for UA but now with greater lose of life from both sides. On the other hand appears US has so far fully anticipated every move from Russia.

I covered Stalin and Mao in my thread before, the goals of their actions was transformation of their countries' political and economic systems (collectivization etc). Such actions can only be viewed through the cost/benefit analysis, and it is my view that the benefit was not worth the cost, so i'm personally not a fan of Stalin. Unfortunately propaganda tries to deceive the uneducated masses and attempt to draw comparisons to where there was no to limited cost or benefit. Like since Stalin caused death of many people, and Hitler caused death of many people thus Stalin is as bad as Hitler. This leads us to equate tragic loss of life in the name of radical transformations of the whole system to deliberate exterminations with no real benefit and in the name of ethnic/national/racial cleansing and superiority of the Aryan race above all. Even attempts at such horrendous comparisons, should automatically repulse anyone with an IQ higher than a rock.

But back to your point, besides propaganda value I don't see how any of this is even relevant? Trying to compare historical "evilness" is more of a philosophical question, how many deaths of exterminated native Americans is equal to own workers worked to death? Or how many lives of innocent civilians nuked with a press of a button during their sleep equal to farmers starved to death? How many slaves killed just for being an "inferior human being" equal to ideological opponents or enemies of the state frozen at gulags? etc etc etc

Are you intentionally ignoring the fact that tanks have consistently been the top request from UA, which so far has been ignored by US/EU? Oh we can't have them? Well, then we never wanted them anyway  

That doesn't explain why delivery of tanks would justify a nuclear response but whatever. I never expected logic from Russian propaganda so carry on.

Mexico
Cuba
Taiwan
China
India

Makes me wonder if you got confused which thread you're posting in or is it just a larger-than-usual dose of whataboutism.

Anyway, after 8 months of killing predominantly Russian-speaking population it should be clear by now that Putin didn't come there to protect the Russian language but if you want to keep living in that illusion that's fine. For sane people though, all that BS doesn't mean that Ukraine can just roll over and Putin will magically become nice and friendly and will no longer threaten or invade other countries like Georgia or Moldova. That's why Ukraine is being supported in this fight and Russia is becoming a pariah state.

Last i checked almost 1000km line of engagement still stands with RU even making some progress in some sections

Must've been a long time since you last checked it, let me help you.


(maps from https://liveuamap.com)

You're cute when you don't have a counter argument   perhaps add a picture of burning Russian tank next time to really drive home your point?

[BADecker]

After all, the sanctions were done by the US and Nato countries to at least weaken Russia... even though they backfired.

What kind of reverse effect are you talking about? Maybe products have become cheaper in Russia or have they started producing something new? Tell me, please. After all, maybe we in Russia do not know any serious advantages of living here.

Try this for starters: Here's Why Sanctions Actually Help Russia - https://russia-insider.com/en/politics/heres-why-sanctions-actually-help-russia/ri41.

Then do searches on various combinations of words that mention benefits for Russia from the sanctions.

[paxmao]

...

Right now we're pretending to not know the difference between old Soviet junk and modern tanks? But please entertain us with your version of why NATO is not sending modern tanks to UA? Perhaps they're too busy playing Dota? Or requests just keep getting lost? Or they can send millions of 155mm shells but logistics to send tanks are just too hard? Or they're secret RU Orcs too?

It's the same old Soviet junk that Russia is planning to win the war with, or better. I still don't know why you're so obsessed with tanks - or only specific brands of tanks - as if that constitutes a worse threat to Russia than e.g. HIMARS, but Russia already lost a shitload of tanks (being captured or destroyed by Ukraine) and can't make anymore, so it doesn't really take a math genius to see where the balance shifting.

Sure let's extend all this effort for a high probability of a worse outcome? Worked so great in Afghanistan and Libya right?

I think you've missed the point. There is no "good" outcome. Let's say Putin takes Ukraine. Then he wants Poland. The whole thing starts over, just much worse.

Right how mobilized Russians with previous combat experience could possibly compare with super mega ultra warrior conscripts of Ukraine and super sober uber special forces of the 8th? mobilization wave of Ukraine?  

Not the best of your straw people. I'm talking about the Russian forces.

The 200k invasion army was supposedly better trained and better equipped and had other advantages like robust air support and still functioning supply lines. What happened to those soldiers? No one cares, let's throw another 300k into it, just with less of everything, and see how that works out. Maybe shift some generals around, yeah, that'll do it.

Pretty much spot on. He takes Crimea, then Easter Ukraine and the Fakepublics of the Dombas, then a corridor to the Fakepublic of Transnistria, they liberating the oppressed Russian living un Hungary, then a corridor to Konigsberg, ... From the European perspective, this has to end here and now. From the Ukrainian perspective, they do not want to be drafted as slaves, not having to survive the next Holodomor nor be the buffer for Putin's aggressions. And believe that some of the fighters in Ukraine speak well of the Commies, so Adolf Putin must have gotten something really wrong here.

Regarding soviet equipment, some people say that it is running thin, my personal take is that there is still a lot of rusty old iron. It is not fit for a modern war, but it kills when used and they do have a shitload of it. The issue is if in modern RF there is still space for a forceful recruiting of an army of slaves - Adolf Putin may have gotten that wrong too.

Slippery slope argument Haha this is a good spin, NATO playing a victim card, original! Russia is down to bare bones of RU speaking Ukraine, Kazakhstan and Belarus. So if NATO doesn't expand to these countries right now that would be a gateway to RU taking over Ireland or Canada next!   are we hoping that no one here has mental capacity to remember 2013 when UA had a pro RU president and that Transnistria has been with RU since 1990s and no one cared for that anymore than for Belarus president being the last European dictator
...

Again, an historic argument that does not matter at all because you cannot get out the middle-age thinking of "this belong to Russia", "This territory was Russia when my grandad lived there..." The territories belong to the people who live in them, the fakeferendums can only create fakepublics.

Ukraine is trying to get away from the world of Tzars and Kings that held the land as a personal possession. You need to get on a time machine and get back to the XII century where your brain is. While you wait for it to be invented, you can just travel back in this thread where those arguments have been shown wrong over an over - starting by the fact that the origin of the Rus (modern Russians) is Kiev.

...

Last i checked almost 1000km line of engagement still stands with RU even making some progress in some sections

You're cute when you don't have a counter argument   perhaps add a picture of burning Russian tank next time to really drive home your point?

The picture is a clear argument. Russian slave orcs are going to Moscow ... just for a coffee Boris... yes, back in no time.

[DaRude]

...

Right now we're pretending to not know the difference between old Soviet junk and modern tanks? But please entertain us with your version of why NATO is not sending modern tanks to UA? Perhaps they're too busy playing Dota? Or requests just keep getting lost? Or they can send millions of 155mm shells but logistics to send tanks are just too hard? Or they're secret RU Orcs too?

It's the same old Soviet junk that Russia is planning to win the war with, or better. I still don't know why you're so obsessed with tanks - or only specific brands of tanks - as if that constitutes a worse threat to Russia than e.g. HIMARS, but Russia already lost a shitload of tanks (being captured or destroyed by Ukraine) and can't make anymore, so it doesn't really take a math genius to see where the balance shifting.

Sure let's extend all this effort for a high probability of a worse outcome? Worked so great in Afghanistan and Libya right?

I think you've missed the point. There is no "good" outcome. Let's say Putin takes Ukraine. Then he wants Poland. The whole thing starts over, just much worse.

Right how mobilized Russians with previous combat experience could possibly compare with super mega ultra warrior conscripts of Ukraine and super sober uber special forces of the 8th? mobilization wave of Ukraine?  

Not the best of your straw people. I'm talking about the Russian forces.

The 200k invasion army was supposedly better trained and better equipped and had other advantages like robust air support and still functioning supply lines. What happened to those soldiers? No one cares, let's throw another 300k into it, just with less of everything, and see how that works out. Maybe shift some generals around, yeah, that'll do it.

Pretty much spot on. He takes Crimea, then Easter Ukraine and the Fakepublics of the Dombas, then a corridor to the Fakepublic of Transnistria, they liberating the oppressed Russian living un Hungary, then a corridor to Konigsberg, ... From the European perspective, this has to end here and now. From the Ukrainian perspective, they do not want to be drafted as slaves, not having to survive the next Holodomor nor be the buffer for Putin's aggressions. And believe that some of the fighters in Ukraine speak well of the Commies, so Adolf Putin must have gotten something really wrong here.

Regarding soviet equipment, some people say that it is running thin, my personal take is that there is still a lot of rusty old iron. It is not fit for a modern war, but it kills when used and they do have a shitload of it. The issue is if in modern RF there is still space for a forceful recruiting of an army of slaves - Adolf Putin may have gotten that wrong too.

Slippery slope argument Haha this is a good spin, NATO playing a victim card, original! Russia is down to bare bones of RU speaking Ukraine, Kazakhstan and Belarus. So if NATO doesn't expand to these countries right now that would be a gateway to RU taking over Ireland or Canada next!   are we hoping that no one here has mental capacity to remember 2013 when UA had a pro RU president and that Transnistria has been with RU since 1990s and no one cared for that anymore than for Belarus president being the last European dictator
...

Again, an historic argument that does not matter at all because you cannot get out the middle-age thinking of "this belong to Russia", "This territory was Russia when my grandad lived there..." The territories belong to the people who live in them, the fakeferendums can only create fakepublics.

Ukraine is trying to get away from the world of Tzars and Kings that held the land as a personal possession. You need to get on a time machine and get back to the XII century where your brain is. While you wait for it to be invented, you can just travel back in this thread where those arguments have been shown wrong over an over - starting by the fact that the origin of the Rus (modern Russians) is Kiev.

...

Last i checked almost 1000km line of engagement still stands with RU even making some progress in some sections

You're cute when you don't have a counter argument   perhaps add a picture of burning Russian tank next time to really drive home your point?

The picture is a clear argument. Russian slave orcs are going to Moscow ... just for a coffee Boris... yes, back in no time.

As much as it's middle-age thinking you cannot deny that it's current reality. Cuba is still under US blockade just because of it's proximity to US, and US considering sanctions against Saudi Arabia not because they kill journalists and oppress women but because they didn't lower oil price and agreed to buyers cartel before November mid-term US elections (not to mention North Korea, Venezuela, Syria ...). You can even block deliveries of resources between separate countries, Germany even wanted to give US 1bil just for the privilege to turn on NordStream2, pretty savage right? Sorry to break this to you but this is how this cruel world still works, just because it's called soft power doesn't mean it doesn't cost lives, that's the benefit of being the world power and having reserve currency, you literally get to fuck around with anyone on this planet.

[suchmoon]

You're cute when you don't have a counter argument   perhaps add a picture of burning Russian tank next time to really drive home your point?

If you had claimed that Russia didn't lose any tanks, a picture of a burning tank would indeed be a good "counter argument", or rather a fact disproving your false claim. In this case a map was such counter-fact. I'll take being cute though, thank you.

[paxmao]

...

Right now we're pretending to not know the difference between old Soviet junk and modern tanks? But please entertain us with your version of why NATO is not sending modern tanks to UA? Perhaps they're too busy playing Dota? Or requests just keep getting lost? Or they can send millions of 155mm shells but logistics to send tanks are just too hard? Or they're secret RU Orcs too?

It's the same old Soviet junk that Russia is planning to win the war with, or better. I still don't know why you're so obsessed with tanks - or only specific brands of tanks - as if that constitutes a worse threat to Russia than e.g. HIMARS, but Russia already lost a shitload of tanks (being captured or destroyed by Ukraine) and can't make anymore, so it doesn't really take a math genius to see where the balance shifting.

Sure let's extend all this effort for a high probability of a worse outcome? Worked so great in Afghanistan and Libya right?

I think you've missed the point. There is no "good" outcome. Let's say Putin takes Ukraine. Then he wants Poland. The whole thing starts over, just much worse.

Right how mobilized Russians with previous combat experience could possibly compare with super mega ultra warrior conscripts of Ukraine and super sober uber special forces of the 8th? mobilization wave of Ukraine?  

Not the best of your straw people. I'm talking about the Russian forces.

The 200k invasion army was supposedly better trained and better equipped and had other advantages like robust air support and still functioning supply lines. What happened to those soldiers? No one cares, let's throw another 300k into it, just with less of everything, and see how that works out. Maybe shift some generals around, yeah, that'll do it.

Pretty much spot on. He takes Crimea, then Easter Ukraine and the Fakepublics of the Dombas, then a corridor to the Fakepublic of Transnistria, they liberating the oppressed Russian living un Hungary, then a corridor to Konigsberg, ... From the European perspective, this has to end here and now. From the Ukrainian perspective, they do not want to be drafted as slaves, not having to survive the next Holodomor nor be the buffer for Putin's aggressions. And believe that some of the fighters in Ukraine speak well of the Commies, so Adolf Putin must have gotten something really wrong here.

Regarding soviet equipment, some people say that it is running thin, my personal take is that there is still a lot of rusty old iron. It is not fit for a modern war, but it kills when used and they do have a shitload of it. The issue is if in modern RF there is still space for a forceful recruiting of an army of slaves - Adolf Putin may have gotten that wrong too.

Slippery slope argument Haha this is a good spin, NATO playing a victim card, original! Russia is down to bare bones of RU speaking Ukraine, Kazakhstan and Belarus. So if NATO doesn't expand to these countries right now that would be a gateway to RU taking over Ireland or Canada next!   are we hoping that no one here has mental capacity to remember 2013 when UA had a pro RU president and that Transnistria has been with RU since 1990s and no one cared for that anymore than for Belarus president being the last European dictator
...

Again, an historic argument that does not matter at all because you cannot get out the middle-age thinking of "this belong to Russia", "This territory was Russia when my grandad lived there..." The territories belong to the people who live in them, the fakeferendums can only create fakepublics.

Ukraine is trying to get away from the world of Tzars and Kings that held the land as a personal possession. You need to get on a time machine and get back to the XII century where your brain is. While you wait for it to be invented, you can just travel back in this thread where those arguments have been shown wrong over an over - starting by the fact that the origin of the Rus (modern Russians) is Kiev.

...

Last i checked almost 1000km line of engagement still stands with RU even making some progress in some sections

You're cute when you don't have a counter argument   perhaps add a picture of burning Russian tank next time to really drive home your point?

The picture is a clear argument. Russian slave orcs are going to Moscow ... just for a coffee Boris... yes, back in no time.

As much as it's middle-age thinking you cannot deny that it's current reality. Cuba is still under US blockade just because of it's proximity to US, and US considering sanctions against Saudi Arabia not because they kill journalists and oppress women but because they didn't lower oil price and agreed to buyers cartel before November mid-term US elections (not to mention North Korea, Venezuela, Syria ...). You can even block deliveries of resources between separate countries, Germany even wanted to give US 1bil just for the privilege to turn on NordStream2, pretty savage right? Sorry to break this to you but this is how this cruel world still works, just because it's called soft power doesn't mean it doesn't cost lives, that's the benefit of being the world power and having reserve currency, you literally get to fuck around with anyone on this planet.

Another sorrowful base argument: you cannot change anything, this is the way it works so you have to live with it. You may have been living under a despot for too long to see anything else. Or even a worse one: "since you cannot always implement socially liberal and representative policies, then is better to not do it ever". That is your bottom line.

Yet here we are, people in Ukraine that are not willing to submit to the Tzar. That is real, you have it there. Medieval thinking does not work well in the Internet era.

You view is very partial and certainly you are not discovering anything, just trying to make Adolf Putin's attitude "the only possible course of action" - which certainly is not. You are putting the focus on countries that are ruled by despots because that is what you understand, but most of the developed world is based on representative governments (I do not want to discuss how democratic). And yes, we do have to live with Kings and Tzars and have diplomatic and commercial relations with them, but at least some of us want to press to make those regimes eventually representative.

Whattabout the Kingdom of Arabia? They are using the chance to favour their economy with disregard of their allies. There is price to pay. Nothing to do with their record as slavery and human rights abuse.

Let me ask you a question: How are human resources for construction works organised in Arabia, Oman, Dubai and EA? Do you know how they do it? Do you think "that's the world it is and there is nothing to be done?"

[BADecker]

You're cute when you don't have a counter argument   perhaps add a picture of burning Russian tank next time to really drive home your point?

If you had claimed that Russia didn't lose any tanks, a picture of a burning tank would indeed be a good "counter argument", or rather a fact disproving your false claim. In this case a map was such counter-fact. I'll take being cute though, thank you.

Notice that when the US pulled out of Afghanistan, she left far more armaments there than the measly few tanks Putin left when he pulled his troops out of certain areas of Ukraine. Just saying.

[suchmoon]

Notice that when the US pulled out of Afghanistan, she left far more armaments there than the measly few tanks Putin left when he pulled his troops out of certain areas of Ukraine. Just saying.

Irrelevant and also false.

But if you can pop down there and talk to Taliban - maybe you can get those American "armaments" and bring them to your buddy Putin. Then he can personally fly a Black Hawk to Kyiv and declare himself the Grand Duke of Kievan Rus.