Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.

[silverbox]

I believe the topic was international settlements.  The problems with paper in this area have been addressed.

Settle up every few weeks with cargo jets.  *shrug*  In WW2 they used boats filled with gold and silver, but its the modern age, jets will work just as well..

Since that time energy costs, and the size of economies accross the globe have skyrocketed. It's not the same anymore.

Now, if you really want to scale back to WW2 levels of global development...

So kick up the value of gold to match the worldwide economy/developement level...  Its just a means to keep score, if that much weight of gold is required to settle up for smaller transactions obviously the value of gold is too low..  Oh wait we have.. gold is 1600 an ounce now, not 30..

Corrected for inflation, fuel costs twice what they were back then. And U.S. international trade is now about 50 times what it was back then. So we're talking about a multiple of 100 times the cost of doing business that way compared to say, 1938.

So then gold is obviously radically undervalued..  160,000 per ounce please..

[1714003243]

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[1714003243]

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[miscreanity]

Corrected for inflation, fuel costs twice what they were back then. And U.S. international trade is now about 50 times what it was back then. So we're talking about a multiple of 100 times the cost of doing business that way compared to say, 1938.

What about increased carrying capacity, range, and fuel efficiency?

[tvbcof]

how likely is it for the Internet to go down?  wasn't it designed to withstand a nuclear war?

To the extent that it would not support a reliable Bitcoin network operating at scale and under attack by the owners of significant chunks of the global network infrastructure...it's almost a certainty.

[cypherdoc]

how likely is it for the Internet to go down?  wasn't it designed to withstand a nuclear war?

To the extent that it would not support a reliable Bitcoin network operating at scale and under attack by the owners of significant chunks of the global network infrastructure...it's almost a certainty.

no way.

[tvbcof]

how likely is it for the Internet to go down?  wasn't it designed to withstand a nuclear war?

To the extent that it would not support a reliable Bitcoin network operating at scale and under attack by the owners of significant chunks of the global network infrastructure...it's almost a certainty.

no way.

Watch and learn then.

[miscreanity]

how likely is it for the Internet to go down?  wasn't it designed to withstand a nuclear war?

a gold layer adds too much complexity, ironically.

It isn't likely, but the possibility remains - localized disruptions are more likely. The financial system is too crucial to modern life to leave to chance.

Seatbelts are annoying, cumbersome, and can cause more harm than help if used improperly. But in a rollover accident, you'll be glad you weren't ejected and crushed or dismembered.

[silverbox]

how likely is it for the Internet to go down?  wasn't it designed to withstand a nuclear war?

To the extent that it would not support a reliable Bitcoin network operating at scale and under attack by the owners of significant chunks of the global network infrastructure...it's almost a certainty.

no way.

Watch and learn then.

Woot Tvbcof is gonna take down the internets!!

Edit: Bask in my newfound HERONESS

[miscreanity]

how likely is it for the Internet to go down?  wasn't it designed to withstand a nuclear war?

To the extent that it would not support a reliable Bitcoin network operating at scale and under attack by the owners of significant chunks of the global network infrastructure...it's almost a certainty.

no way.

Watch and learn then.

The damage need not come from physical sources.

BLACK DETH OF TEH INTERWEBZ!!

[miscreanity]

So then gold is obviously radically undervalued..  160,000 per ounce please..

Us phyzzz holders can only hope. Please hold the war, famine, and roving gangs

[cypherdoc]

how likely is it for the Internet to go down?  wasn't it designed to withstand a nuclear war?

To the extent that it would not support a reliable Bitcoin network operating at scale and under attack by the owners of significant chunks of the global network infrastructure...it's almost a certainty.

no way.

Watch and learn then.

Woot Tvbcof is gonna take down the internets!!

Edit: Bask in my newfound HERONESS

LOL!  how many decades has it been up and running w/o a takedown?  and everyone thinks i'm cocky...

sorry tvbcof; you're a troll.

[tvbcof]

how likely is it for the Internet to go down?  wasn't it designed to withstand a nuclear war?

To the extent that it would not support a reliable Bitcoin network operating at scale and under attack by the owners of significant chunks of the global network infrastructure...it's almost a certainty.

no way.

Watch and learn then.

Woot Tvbcof is gonna take down the internets!!

LOL!  how many decades has it been up and running w/o a takedown?  and everyone thinks i'm cocky.

  I didn't say I was an owner of a significant chunk of the global network infrastructure.  It's more than I have some sense of the layout coupled with some intuition about these sorts of things complements of my vocation.

But if you want to lay a big bet on my being wrong, I can't stop you...  Chances are we'll never find out for other reasons (though they would be equally good at souring your bet unfortunately.)

[bitcool]

AFAIK, Nixon abandoning gold standard in 1971 was neither because we couldn't move gold fast enough,  nor because gold centralizing didn't work.

i disagree.  the US trading partners took the word of the US Treasury/Fed that theirs/ours gold reserves were actually present in Fort Knox (centralized).  the trading partners left them there b/c it was too inconvenient/heavy to be moving around the world on a daily basis. 

eventually the French got suspicious and called us on it.  what did we do?  DEFAULT.

I disagree with your disagreement   The abandonment of the gold standard was redemption issue -- i.e. excessive printing --  not a centralization problem.  French moving their gold back was just an failed attempt on gold suppression scheme: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Gold_Pool

Leaving gold with Fed has always been more of a political gesture than logistic issue, even today much of the Germany and Chinese gold are still left with NY Fed, you think because it's too heavy?


I still don't understand why you need to move gold around on a daily basis -- gold/silver certificates work just fine, as long as there's convertibility.

[miscreanity]

I disagree with your disagreement   The abandonment of the gold standard was redemption issue -- i.e. excessive printing --  not a centralization problem.  French moving their gold back was just an failed attempt on gold suppression scheme: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Gold_Pool

Leaving gold with Fed has always been more of a political gesture than logistic issue, even today much of the Germany and Chinese gold are still left with NY Fed, you think because it's too heavy?

The big gold cube might fall to the center of the earth because it's so heavy. Like the missing pyramids. You don't know about them? That's 'cause they sunk!

I still don't understand why you need to move gold around on a daily basis -- gold/silver certificates work just fine, as long as there's convertibility.

Yup. The dollar is a claim on the nation's accumulated wealth, held mainly in the form of gold. Without convertibility, you may as well have bought shares of a company that the company refuses to recognize.

[notme]

Markets sometimes follow rumors more than reality... Should your cost of doing business really be exposed to a 10% rise if someone plants a few false seeds in the media?  Sure, it's no worse than the current situation, I'm just saying Bitcoin would be superior and thus eventually it will win out as long as the internet and globalized trading continue.

10% rise?? wtf it doesn't cost $2000 to airmail 1 lb... 

Again, I'm speaking about countries, not civilians.  One pound ain't gonna cut it for international settlements.  It will be sent in a military plane with a fighter escort.  Not cheap.

[tvbcof]

General Comment: Thanks, cypherdoc, for reminding me to do an update via your edit above.
As projected, the USDX ratchets back and forth while gold ratchets up.  It's easily predicted by fundamentals...no subscription required.

Another Score:  5/22/12
          year ago    now       delta mult
BTC     6.30         5.09       + 0.81
Gold    1512         1560      + 1.03

--------------------------
ref (for future updates):
http://bitcoincharts.com/charts/mtgoxUSD#czsg2011-05-08zeg2011-05-08ztgSzm1g10zm2g25zv  (change date)
http://www.kitco.com/charts/livegold.html  (hist cgi at bottom)
mult=now/year_ago

day           ya-btc  btc  mult    ya-Au  Au    mult
2012-05-22  6.30  5.09  0.81    1512  1560  1.03
2012-05-21  5.90  5.10  0.86    1514  1590  1.05
2012-05-18  7.50  5.12  0.68    1497  1592  1.06    
2012-05-17  7.80  5.09  0.65    1480  1574  1.06            
2012-05-16  7.40  5.09  0.69    1495  1533  1.03
2012-05-15  6.80  5.03  0.74    1492  1545  1.04
2012-05-14  8.50  5.00  0.59    1495  1555  1.04
2012-05-12  5.40  4.95  0.92    1505  1580  1.05
2012-05-11  5.00  4.95  0.99    1505  1580  1.05
2012-05-10  3.82  4.90  1.28    1510  1593  1.05
2012-05-09  3.75  5.03  1.34    1510  1590  1.05
2012-05-08  3.64  5.03  1.38    1497  1605  1.07

[cypherdoc]

AFAIK, Nixon abandoning gold standard in 1971 was neither because we couldn't move gold fast enough,  nor because gold centralizing didn't work.

i disagree.  the US trading partners took the word of the US Treasury/Fed that theirs/ours gold reserves were actually present in Fort Knox (centralized).  the trading partners left them there b/c it was too inconvenient/heavy to be moving around the world on a daily basis. 

eventually the French got suspicious and called us on it.  what did we do?  DEFAULT.

I disagree with your disagreement   The abandonment of the gold standard was redemption issue -- i.e. excessive printing --  not a centralization problem.  French moving their gold back was just an failed attempt on gold suppression scheme: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Gold_Pool

Leaving gold with Fed has always been more of a political gesture than logistic issue, even today much of the Germany and Chinese gold are still left with NY Fed, you think because it's too heavy?


I still don't understand why you need to move gold around on a daily basis -- gold/silver certificates work just fine, as long as there's convertibility.

it was both.  the US excessively printed but we were able to get away with it b/c we were the centralized custodian of everyone's gold (only we could count it realtime). we were able to get away with years of inflation throughout the 1960's to fund the Vietnam war.  over time other countries caught on to what we were doing but probably didn't want to bother with coming to get their gold b/c it IS too heavy.

finally, France couldn't take it any longer and demanded their gold when the excesses could no longer be ignored.  then we defaulted.

this is why Bitcoin would be so superior.  with a keystroke the BOP could be settled nightly.

[silverbox]

Markets sometimes follow rumors more than reality... Should your cost of doing business really be exposed to a 10% rise if someone plants a few false seeds in the media?  Sure, it's no worse than the current situation, I'm just saying Bitcoin would be superior and thus eventually it will win out as long as the internet and globalized trading continue.

10% rise?? wtf it doesn't cost $2000 to airmail 1 lb... 

Again, I'm speaking about countries, not civilians.  One pound ain't gonna cut it for international settlements.  It will be sent in a military plane with a fighter escort.  Not cheap.

A 747 filled with gold?  Thats like 100 tons.  4.5 billion USD or thereabouts in gold  About 500,000 USD for a international flight.  Say another 500k USD for the fighter escort.  4500 million usd in gold  1 million usd to move it..

Thats .022 %   NOT 10%

Again your 10% number is crazy high.

Try doing a lil math before you start spouting off about 10% fee..

[notme]

Markets sometimes follow rumors more than reality... Should your cost of doing business really be exposed to a 10% rise if someone plants a few false seeds in the media?  Sure, it's no worse than the current situation, I'm just saying Bitcoin would be superior and thus eventually it will win out as long as the internet and globalized trading continue.

10% rise?? wtf it doesn't cost $2000 to airmail 1 lb...  

Again, I'm speaking about countries, not civilians.  One pound ain't gonna cut it for international settlements.  It will be sent in a military plane with a fighter escort.  Not cheap.

A 747 filled with gold?  Thats like 100 tons.  4.5 billion USD or thereabouts in gold  About 500,000 USD for a international flight.  Say another 500k USD for the fighter escort.  4500 million usd in gold  1 million usd to move it..

Thats .022 %   NOT 10%

Again your 10% number is crazy high.

Try doing a lil math before you start spouting off about 10% fee..

You're right.  It's still damn inconvenient compared to bitcoin.  Sorry I was lazy and didn't feel like looking up 10 different figures to do the math.  I can see it has upset you.  Hey everyone, keep in mind I'm sometimes lazy and pull numbers out of my ass.  Please don't believe anything I say without verifying it first.

[silverbox]

Markets sometimes follow rumors more than reality... Should your cost of doing business really be exposed to a 10% rise if someone plants a few false seeds in the media?  Sure, it's no worse than the current situation, I'm just saying Bitcoin would be superior and thus eventually it will win out as long as the internet and globalized trading continue.

10% rise?? wtf it doesn't cost $2000 to airmail 1 lb... 

Again, I'm speaking about countries, not civilians.  One pound ain't gonna cut it for international settlements.  It will be sent in a military plane with a fighter escort.  Not cheap.

A 747 filled with gold?  Thats like 100 tons.  4.5 billion USD or thereabouts in gold  About 500,000 USD for a international flight.  Say another 500k USD for the fighter escort.  4500 million usd in gold  1 million usd to move it..

Thats .022 %   NOT 10%

Again your 10% number is crazy high.

Try doing a lil math before you start spouting off about 10% fee..

You're right.  It's still damn inconvenient compared to bitcoin.  Sorry I was lazy and didn't feel like looking up 10 different figures to do the math.  I can see it has upset you.  Hey everyone, keep in mind I'm sometimes lazy and pull numbers out of my ass.  Please don't believe anything I say without verifying it first.

lol, Great reply .  Sure gold isn't as convienent as bitcoin, but its unlikley a hacker will make off with your gold in the middle of the night in a few microseconds...

Wouldn't it be fun to pull up in a 747 full of gold to someone who claimed you couldn't pay because of spurious media stories... Way more satisifying then a few clicks to send the BTC .  Check out my 100 tons of gold bitches!!!

[notme]

Additionally, if there is a war going on there would be significant risk of loss.... I had that in mind.  10% is still probably a bit high, but imagine shooting one of those from the sky.  Melt it and reform the bars, and you're golden .