margin - Bitcoin Trading Bot: Binance, Coinbase Pro, Bittrex, HitBTC, Bitfinex..

[allyrbase]

Of the 7 permitted exchanges, although I've added 1 API key, I have yet to use my paid version of LeonArdo; since it appears to be hit and miss specifically on that exchange. Meanwhile, I've been paper trading while waiting for improvements to come to fruition. What I paid for and what I got are far below expectation (and I'm not alone). This app is clearly useless to me in its current state... as such I am formerly requesting a refund. 

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[drrelik]

Hey Jonathan,

Please let us know if this change/switch to margin will be taking place in the next day or two.

I'm interested in purchasing leonArdo but would only want to do so knowing that I can receive the 50% discount on the continued subscription after the free trail. However I would like to look at it tomorrow in detail before making a decision and just want to get a better idea of how soon the launch will be taking place.

Thanks!

[KDoge]

I do NOT recommend anyone to buy anything from this developer.

I bought the unlimited edition just a couple of weeks ago FOR 249 USD (my decision was based on their false claims) and all I can have now is just 6 month of supported product. I mean... seriously?

Yes maybe "lifetime support" doesn't literally mean lifetime, but when I invested I chose this product and paid for it based on that information - to get at least 1, maybe 2-3 years of supported product.

What I've got instead, is 6 month of supported product for $249. Integrity? Anyone? You do what, when and how you want and that's ok for you. What you promised just a couple weeks ago is now... well, not valid. You guys lied to me. 

I've been reading some of the complaints for a while since the re branding news was announced.  I will say that it is amazing how many people lack basic reading comprehension skills.  Leonardo is not going away.  You will still be able to use it.  They may not continue to release software updates for it, but that is ok, that wasn't what you payed for.

If you bothered to go back ONE page, you would have noticed that Jonathan said that customer support would still be available.  I will link you to the post, since you are obviously lazy.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1467939.msg31263126#msg31263126

[KDoge]

I sent them this email 4 days ago and they don't even bother to reply to me.
So I decided to post it here to let you guys know...
=============================================================

I just read that Leonardo will no longer be supported and you will
change your company name. I must confess that it does not make me feel
very happy and a bit foolish.

You should know that I made the decision to buy your software was for 2 reasons:
1) It was not necessary to pay monthly for support.
2) I expected several features to be added, as you promised me by email.

Try to empathize with the company.  Their old business model was not financially sustainable in the long run.  At some point, they would need to either have their employees work pro-bono, or shut down altogether.  If they continued to go down this road, then you would not get updates anyways, because rolling out updates is a full-time job, and would require some kind of compensation.  The old model relied on new users coming in.  Once they stop receiving new users, they stop receiving funds to pay employees.

In both cases, this is not going to happen as I expected. I've read
your answers on the support forum and your attitude towards your
existing customers doesn't seem to be appropriate.

I think they handled everything correctly.  I think many of the customers don't care about reading concerns from other customers, so staff members get annoyed by constantly having to repeat themselves.  It's understandable.

Before I even bought your software, I asked many questions about the
future development of the software. Your team seemed to be in complete
agreement with my feature requests and let me believe that they were
on the roadmap. As I mentioned in a previous email, I still don't use
my license because I was waiting for my applications to arrive one
day, which will never happen. I bought a license to encourage you in
Leonardo's development!

It's great that you are trying to offer them features to implement.  But understand, that, it takes time and money to implement those requests.  Should Margin staff make updates, and not receive compensation?  Companies who cannot sustain themselves financially end up collapsing.  I don't think that is beneficial to anyone.

Suddenly changing your business model from a single cost to a monthly
cost shouldn't impact your existing customers in any way. Having
bought Leonardo, I trusted you and I thought I could use this tool for
at least 5 years! Please stop saying that we will be able to use the
old software until the end of time, it is totally absurd because we
are dependent and at the mercy of API updates from trading platforms.
Please, at least don't take us for fools.

They gave a more than two week notice, which is more than enough.  How does this harm any user in any way?  If you want to upgrade, great!  If not, you will continue to be able to use Leonardo, as it has always been.  You honestly probably will not notice any difference, had they not made an announcement.

That said, I appreciate that you will offer 50% to all existing
customers even if this decision was not initially considered. Although
I can understand that the support and improvement of a software
requires sufficient financial resources, this discount is not enough
and your customers have let you know on the forum. Your hero badge
story is felt like a joke and unnecessary.

Now I think you are just being greedy.  $25 a month for the standard plan is very inexpensive.  Since you are a hero member, you get 50% off of that.  The discount is more than enough.  I kindly request of you to not be so selfish.  You are not forced to commit to the subscriptions.

Please revise your strategy before it is too late and trust is
completely broken. I still believe in your product and your team.

An existing customer.

The decision to rebrand was probably well-thought out.  They even will release a new website.  I don't think these things happen overnight.  Jonathan is a very intelligent person.  I'd say he probably understands his companies needs better than anyone.  Let them run their company the way they see fit.  I understand that this re-branding is not for everybody, and that is fine.  You can never please everybody.
=============================================================

[gregvc]

Well, those who think "customer support" is enough are naive. As one of other members correctly pointed, we're dependent on API changes and the product won't last long. By supported product I mean product which works because developers support it.

I'm sure many of the current users decided to buy the product based on the wording "Lifetime License".

Change of business model is not in question and is totally understandable.

What is in question is how these folks treat their current loyal users. And if today it's not you who has regrets because of how you're treated, just wait and you'll be... some day. It is about integrity and loyalty.


My best friend is a developer too (mobile apps not related to crypto) and when they changed their business model from one-time payment to subscription they just marked those users who bought previously as "paid" in their database, that's it. Yes they lacked some immediate earnings but they earned users trust, referrals and recommendations.

[leonArdo@margin]

I sent them this email 4 days ago and they don't even bother to reply to me.
So I decided to post it here to let you guys know...
=============================================================

I just read that Leonardo will no longer be supported and you will
change your company name. I must confess that it does not make me feel
very happy and a bit foolish.

You should know that I made the decision to buy your software was for 2 reasons:
1) It was not necessary to pay monthly for support.
2) I expected several features to be added, as you promised me by email.

In both cases, this is not going to happen as I expected. I've read
your answers on the support forum and your attitude towards your
existing customers doesn't seem to be appropriate.

Before I even bought your software, I asked many questions about the
future development of the software. Your team seemed to be in complete
agreement with my feature requests and let me believe that they were
on the roadmap. As I mentioned in a previous email, I still don't use
my license because I was waiting for my applications to arrive one
day, which will never happen. I bought a license to encourage you in
Leonardo's development!

Suddenly changing your business model from a single cost to a monthly
cost shouldn't impact your existing customers in any way. Having
bought Leonardo, I trusted you and I thought I could use this tool for
at least 5 years! Please stop saying that we will be able to use the
old software until the end of time, it is totally absurd because we
are dependent and at the mercy of API updates from trading platforms.
Please, at least don't take us for fools.

That said, I appreciate that you will offer 50% to all existing
customers even if this decision was not initially considered. Although
I can understand that the support and improvement of a software
requires sufficient financial resources, this discount is not enough
and your customers have let you know on the forum. Your hero badge
story is felt like a joke and unnecessary.

Please revise your strategy before it is too late and trust is
completely broken. I still believe in your product and your team.

An existing customer.
=============================================================

Hi!

we hear ya! But we are super busy and still trying to get back to all you guys. Most of us are working 16h days.
We offer a professional product that makes most people a lot of money. We came to a point at which we had to re-think the business model as we could not continue with the current model in a sustainable way. There was no other sustainable option. We also have a support team that needs to be paid. And all this is just not possible with a once off payment. We also decided to give the existing customers 50% off for the subscription, which almost no other company does.
We would also love to support leonArdo forever. But maintaining two code bases has high costs for which no one is paying. We really thought long and hard about it.
We are also giving basically the same credit out you guys bought the product for + 50% off for a future subscription.

Also everyone is paying 0.2% on every trade to the exchanges which are money printing machines and you are not getting even a support reply from them in weeks/months.
We answer most questions within a day or two. If we actually have to think and discuss about it, yeah we might take a couple days.
The other option would be closing down leonArdo as the old model was not enough to sustain the company.
I will also now reply to you via mail to see if we can convince you 'in person'

All the best,

  Rene

[leonArdo@margin]

For example when I decided to pay them, I saw a nice button "Be awesome" to pay a maximum amount of $249. And I paid. A couple of weeks ago. But it doesn't look awesome to me now. (Coinigy would give me more than 1 year of subscription for this money.)

If I'd pay $129 I'd still receive the same 6 month on the same plan. No matter I paid $249. How is that fair?

As an ultra customer you are getting a full 12 months for free!
So it is twice as much as the $129 license.

All the best,

  Rene

[leonArdo@margin]

Good question. The discount is associated with your account so once you sign up initially within a month this feature is activated. A break is then possible without penalties.

Best wishes,
Jonathan

How to subscribe to the new offer with discount?
On the website there is still the old offer.

We will switch to the new offer soon. Then there will also be the 50% discount for you guys.

All the best,

  Rene

[rastafarlig]

Hi Leo-team.

First of all, I've also just bought the 249$ lifetime subscription, and I, unlike many others - are EXCITED for the re-branding.

My question is, which raspberry pi should I buy if I want to run the new software on it? I read that you suggested a banana pi in a previous post, but that was for leo. So which one is the best for the marginsoftware?

[Grumble Guff]

Hi Leo-team.

First of all, I've also just bought the 249$ lifetime subscription, and I, unlike many others - are EXCITED for the re-branding.

My question is, which raspberry pi should I buy if I want to run the new software on it? I read that you suggested a banana pi in a previous post, but that was for leo. So which one is the best for the marginsoftware?

If Margin works the same as Leonardo then the Raspberry Pi 3 Model B works the best.

If you are quick there's 15% off until 4th March over at Pimoroni

https://shop.pimoroni.com/products/raspberry-pi-3

[money4good]

Can’t wait for Margin! Super excited for what you guys have in store. 

And for those complaining about subscription-based transition, if you can’t afford $12.50/mo for an awesome money-making trading software maybe you shouldn’t be using it in the first place. This is still the best deal out there, in my opinion.

For those that purchased a lifetime license just recently within the last few weeks maybe something extra can be done for you folks out of solidarity. I don’t know how many of you there are but maybe a 75% discount for your first year and then 50% for life after that. I don’t know, just throwing it out there.

[drrelik]

Just wanted to say that if you look at the cost of other similar products and compare the features, the leonArdo team has been more than fair offering early adopters a 50% discount on the subscription plans (especially when you take into account the free 6 months or 1 year of the Standard plan...).

Also, having talked directly with their support team via email (not through the forum), they are extremely fast at replying and very direct with their answers.

Everyone complaining - have you ever tried to contact Cryptopia's support? (Good luck - submitted a ticket and there's a 23 day wait)...

Anyway, just wanted to post my experiences so far in case anyone new coming in sees the discouraging posts from users that are upset about the subscription move. You can't really be mad when you purchase a product and the company's direction changes due to market circumstances. I mean you can, but why would you? It's a great product and a great price.

TL;DR: The cost is more than fair; the support team is great; people complaining should probably examine other models/support before complaining; it's a great product.

Thanks leonArdo team!

[CTShaman]

I am getting more excited as time passes because I have been researching every reportedly superior alternative to margin listed here and on slack over the last week or so. From my research the alternatives have one commonality, they are subscription based. 

Go Team! 

[gregvc]

This is not about feature comparison.

This is about the fact that they did "lifetime license" their marketing promise and leverage. Lots of users invested in product based on that promise when the product was in early stage.

If all those users would compare the product with other more mature products subscription vs subscription they probably would not invested.
And then those users reported bugs and spread the world about the product, etc. And what did they get in return?


Again, you should understand those users who are upset arent upset about how margin will develop their business. They are upset about how developer treats them, current loyal users.



Switching the business model in NOT in question.

I DO NOT see any issue with future users paying subscription. It is fair because future users will make their buying decision based on NEW information.


It is about greediness to capitalize on past users who were fooled to pay a "Lifetime License".

[money4good]

This is not about feature comparison.

This is about the fact that they did "lifetime license" their marketing promise and leverage. Lots of users invested in product based on that promise when the product was in early stage.

If all those users would compare the product with other more mature products subscription vs subscription they probably would not invested.
And then those users reported bugs and spread the world about the product, etc. And what did they get in return?


Again, you should understand those users who are upset arent upset about how margin will develop their business. They are upset about how developer treats them, current loyal users.



Switching the business model in NOT in question.

I DO NOT see any issue with future users paying subscription. It is fair because future users will make their buying decision based on NEW information.


It is about greediness to capitalize on past users who were fooled to pay a "Lifetime License".

They DID give you something. It's called FREE for 1 year and a lifetime 50% discount on subscription costs. What more do you want from them? I hear a lot of complaints with NO SOLUTIONS EVEN BEING SUGGESTED...WHAT DO YOU WANT??

[drrelik]

As a new user, I didn't read anywhere that said they would be providing lifetime updates unless I missed that part. I did read that they would be providing software with a lifetime license which is what anyone buying it should expect.

It's no different than purchasing an operating system that provides a lifetime license but not updates, or purchasing development software with a lifetime license that Microsoft or another company will stop providing updates for in the future.

They've actually already provided a great deal giving anyone that purchased the software a 50% off subscription along with 6 or 12 months for free. If you use the 6 or 12 months, and consider that you'd be paying half of the Standard subscription's price for those months, the 6 month period would cost you $87 and the 12 month period would cost you $174. Subtract that amount from what you paid for the original software (which you still get to keep and use) and please let me know where you can get the same features for that cost - especially without a subscription.

I just think everyone gets hung up on the thought that there was a broken promise when there wasn't... Are you all mad at Microsoft for cutting off your XP support/updates?

[allyrbase]

I just think everyone gets hung up on the thought that there was a broken promise when there wasn't... Are you all mad at Microsoft for cutting off your XP support/updates?

Case in point. Microsoft had the courtesy of announcing their intent to retire XP well over 12 months prior to it happening.

Had Margin been a little more transparent and simply stated that there was a remote possibility that they would (or were considering) to pivot their model to a subscription-base at the time of the price increase, this debate would most likely not be taking place. Most of us who are unhappy would have been in a better position to make an informed decision as to whether or not to purchase the license at that time.

[drrelik]

I just think everyone gets hung up on the thought that there was a broken promise when there wasn't... Are you all mad at Microsoft for cutting off your XP support/updates?

Case in point. Microsoft had the courtesy of announcing their intent to retire XP well over 12 months prior to it happening.

Had Margin been a little more transparent and simply stated that there was a remote possibility that they would (or were considering) to pivot their model to a subscription-base at the time of the price increase, this debate would most likely not be taking place. Most of us who are unhappy would have been in a better position to make an informed decision as to whether or not to purchase the license at that time.

Understood, and perhaps Microsoft wasn't the best example to use given that Microsoft is/was in a very different position than Margin whereas Margin is a much newer company and doesn't have the ability to provide an announcement that far in advance. I would assume that if they did (understanding they are also a very small company), they wouldn't be around in 12 months to support the lifetime product anyway - assuming limited income based on a set price product.

I'm not saying they couldn't have taken a different direction with the announcement that would have alleviated much of the ire that's been invoked, but I still have to go back to my opinion that it is only the fault of the consumer if they purchase a product from a new company with misconceptions regarding the product. Especially when the company goes beyond what I feel is a completely reasonable offer going forward. I mean they are basically giving you half your money back with the free period and you still get to use what you bought.

I can see why some may be angry about it, but at least attempt to see that they are going far beyond what many other companies may do in the same event.

I'm not affiliated with them by the way - I'm just a new user. I'm not even trying to take sides, rather I am just trying to be objective. I can see your side of things, but I still personally lean toward this being a positive overall for everyone.

[dbolivar]

It is about greediness to capitalize on past users who were fooled to pay a "Lifetime License".

Where did you read a promise for lifetime UPDATES? If they stated that, you may have a case, otherwise you DO have acquired a lifetime license. You can use your product forever. Yes, yes, APIs can change, the old product won't be updated anymore etc., but that would fit in a "lifetime updates" model.

There's simply almost no business that can survive without either charging for updates, support, or subscription, unless they have a constantly growing user base, which is not the reality. Almost all software that come to my mind fit in one of the models I mentioned.

And calling them "greedy", "misleading", "cheaters" or whatever else you called them is absolutely unfair. First because they didn't break a promise. Second because they listened to the users and offered a very good deal for existing ones. And third, because everyone here who have done business with them, used support etc. know they are extremely honest and decent people.

[allyrbase]

I can see why some may be angry about it, but at least attempt to see that they are going far beyond what many other companies may do in the same event.

I'm not affiliated with them by the way - I'm just a new user. I'm not even trying to take sides, rather I am just trying to be objective. I can see your side of things, but I still personally lean toward this being a positive overall for everyone.

I've been following LeonArdo's progress since around March of 2016... they're not that new.

@drrelik Thank you for acknowledging my perspective. I also agree that moving forward sans negativity would certainly be best for all here. I was voicing my frustration and simply felt let down by a project that I was excited about and one that I truly believed in. I maintain that Margin could have handled this differently and feel they still refuse to take some degree of ownership in this issue.

Moving forward, it is unlikely that I will 'upgrade' to the new model as there are numerous subscription-based platforms to evaluate first.