Swedish ASIC miner company kncminer.com

[Bitcoinorama]

Exactly, if they miss the deadline and you feel that you want a refund. They will give it to you.

They are the only company that is like this, where you can make your bet and have it basically risk free if they don't deliver by the date in your super duper excel mathematical genius bitcoin spreadsheet.

Just to point out, if they miss the deadline horribly and their competition doesn't, causing massive request for refunds, then there is the possibility of a bankrupt operation. Those NRE funds came from our pre-orders and are already at least partially spent. I'm not suggesting that this is going to happen, I just want to point out that there are situations where they don't deliver and people do not get refunds.

Yes if they chose to pay by unprotected payment means.

[HyperMega]

EU rules say: If you did not recieve your product within 30 days you are lawfully entitled to get a refund!

30 days from what?

From order date.

Which I believe is the case with KNC - they have said before that they will refund anyone unless they have started shipping your order

Have a look at their official terms and conditions at their website (one had to accept before one can finalize the order).

First they strictly treat you as a business customer:

"1.2   The Products are sold for business use only and Purchaser hereby accepts that it has purchased the Products in order to conduct a business."

As far as I know, business customers are not that well and comfortable protected by law as private persons are.

Second, there is no word about a refunding policy, as mentioned here (refunding possible until they ship). At least I didn't find it.
I know, that someone shared a KnC email he got, where they say it in that way. But is this binding?

In their terms and conditions is stated:

"8.2  Where delivery is delayed due to any of the circumstances constituting force majeure in accordance with 11 below or due to any act or omission by the Purchaser, the delivery period shall be extended by such a period as is reasonable in light of the circumstances.  The delivery period shall also be extended where the cause of the delay arises after the expiry of the originally agreed delivery period."

and in their definition "force majeure" is almost anything they can't control:

"11.1 KnCMiner is exempted from fulfilling its obligations under this Agreement and is entitled to cancel the Purchaser’s confirmed orders without any liability, in the event of force majeure such as strikes, floods and fires, wars, riots, interruptions in transport, shortage of material or energy sources affecting KnCMiner or its sub-suppliers, accidents or other occurrences which affects sub-suppliers’ production, bankruptcy or compulsory liquidation of a sub-supplier, accidents of any kind, governmental decisions which affects manufacturing or use of the Products and, in general, such events that were unforeseen at the time of the order which prevents or hinder manufacturing, transportation or delivery of the Products to the Purchaser."

No offence, but if "we refund everybody until we start shipping" is their official refunding policy, they should add this also to their official terms and conditions.

[PsychoticBoy]

EU rules say: If you did not recieve your product within 30 days you are lawfully entitled to get a refund!

30 days from what?

From order date.

Which I believe is the case with KNC - they have said before that they will refund anyone unless they have started shipping your order

Have a look at their official terms and conditions at their website (one had to accept before one can finalize the order).

First they strictly treat you as a business customer:

"1.2   The Products are sold for business use only and Purchaser hereby accepts that it has purchased the Products in order to conduct a business."

As far as I know, business customers are not that well and comfortable protected by law as private persons are.

Second, there is no word about a refunding policy, as mentioned here (refunding possible until they ship). At least I didn't find it.
I know, that someone shared a KnC email he got, where they say it in that way. But is this binding?

In their terms and conditions is stated:

"8.2  Where delivery is delayed due to any of the circumstances constituting force majeure in accordance with 11 below or due to any act or omission by the Purchaser, the delivery period shall be extended by such a period as is reasonable in light of the circumstances.  The delivery period shall also be extended where the cause of the delay arises after the expiry of the originally agreed delivery period."

and in their definition "force majeure" is almost anything they can't control:

"11.1 KnCMiner is exempted from fulfilling its obligations under this Agreement and is entitled to cancel the Purchaser’s confirmed orders without any liability, in the event of force majeure such as strikes, floods and fires, wars, riots, interruptions in transport, shortage of material or energy sources affecting KnCMiner or its sub-suppliers, accidents or other occurrences which affects sub-suppliers’ production, bankruptcy or compulsory liquidation of a sub-supplier, accidents of any kind, governmental decisions which affects manufacturing or use of the Products and, in general, such events that were unforeseen at the time of the order which prevents or hinder manufacturing, transportation or delivery of the Products to the Purchaser."

No offence, but if "we refund everybody until we start shipping" is their official refunding policy, they should add this also to their official terms and conditions.

EU Law applies to all companies who are located in the EU.
EU Law stands above KnCminers own company T&C ("rules")!

[sickpig]

EU rules say: If you did not recieve your product within 30 days you are lawfully entitled to get a refund!

30 days from what?

From order date.

Which I believe is the case with KNC - they have said before that they will refund anyone unless they have started shipping your order

Have a look at their official terms and conditions at their website (one had to accept before one can finalize the order).

First they strictly treat you as a business customer:

"1.2   The Products are sold for business use only and Purchaser hereby accepts that it has purchased the Products in order to conduct a business."

As far as I know, business customers are not that well and comfortable protected by law as private persons are.

Second, there is no word about a refunding policy, as mentioned here (refunding possible until they ship). At least I didn't find it.
I know, that someone shared a KnC email he got, where they say it in that way. But is this binding?

In their terms and conditions is stated:

"8.2  Where delivery is delayed due to any of the circumstances constituting force majeure in accordance with 11 below or due to any act or omission by the Purchaser, the delivery period shall be extended by such a period as is reasonable in light of the circumstances.  The delivery period shall also be extended where the cause of the delay arises after the expiry of the originally agreed delivery period."

and in their definition "force majeure" is almost anything they can't control:

"11.1 KnCMiner is exempted from fulfilling its obligations under this Agreement and is entitled to cancel the Purchaser’s confirmed orders without any liability, in the event of force majeure such as strikes, floods and fires, wars, riots, interruptions in transport, shortage of material or energy sources affecting KnCMiner or its sub-suppliers, accidents or other occurrences which affects sub-suppliers’ production, bankruptcy or compulsory liquidation of a sub-supplier, accidents of any kind, governmental decisions which affects manufacturing or use of the Products and, in general, such events that were unforeseen at the time of the order which prevents or hinder manufacturing, transportation or delivery of the Products to the Purchaser."

No offence, but if "we refund everybody until we start shipping" is their official refunding policy, they should add this also to their official terms and conditions.

EU Law applies to all companies who are located in the EU.
EU Law stands above KnCminers own company T&C ("rules")!

yep you're right, nonetheless if they fail in a bad way and everyone ask for a refund, bankruptcy is almost unavoidable

[Bitcoinorama]

EU rules say: If you did not recieve your product within 30 days you are lawfully entitled to get a refund!

30 days from what?

From order date.

Which I believe is the case with KNC - they have said before that they will refund anyone unless they have started shipping your order

Have a look at their official terms and conditions at their website (one had to accept before one can finalize the order).

First they strictly treat you as a business customer:

"1.2   The Products are sold for business use only and Purchaser hereby accepts that it has purchased the Products in order to conduct a business."

As far as I know, business customers are not that well and comfortable protected by law as private persons are.

Second, there is no word about a refunding policy, as mentioned here (refunding possible until they ship). At least I didn't find it.
I know, that someone shared a KnC email he got, where they say it in that way. But is this binding?

In their terms and conditions is stated:

"8.2  Where delivery is delayed due to any of the circumstances constituting force majeure in accordance with 11 below or due to any act or omission by the Purchaser, the delivery period shall be extended by such a period as is reasonable in light of the circumstances.  The delivery period shall also be extended where the cause of the delay arises after the expiry of the originally agreed delivery period."

and in their definition "force majeure" is almost anything they can't control:

"11.1 KnCMiner is exempted from fulfilling its obligations under this Agreement and is entitled to cancel the Purchaser’s confirmed orders without any liability, in the event of force majeure such as strikes, floods and fires, wars, riots, interruptions in transport, shortage of material or energy sources affecting KnCMiner or its sub-suppliers, accidents or other occurrences which affects sub-suppliers’ production, bankruptcy or compulsory liquidation of a sub-supplier, accidents of any kind, governmental decisions which affects manufacturing or use of the Products and, in general, such events that were unforeseen at the time of the order which prevents or hinder manufacturing, transportation or delivery of the Products to the Purchaser."

No offence, but if "we refund everybody until we start shipping" is their official refunding policy, they should add this also to their official terms and conditions.

EU Law applies to all companies who are located in the EU.
EU Law stands above KnCminers own company T&C ("rules")!

yep you're right, nonetheless if they fail in a bad way and everyone ask for a refund, bankruptcy is almost unavoidable

Same as each current manufacturer, except here if you perform due diligence and clear the purchase with your bank first, you stand a chance to be reimbursed. Anyway we know for sure in a month. So for those on the fence it's not long now.

[CYPER]

I assume it is a limited company, thus Johan Rilegård and Andreas Kennemar cannot be held financially responsible, even though they are CEO and CTO of Orsoc?

[crumbs]

I assume it is a limited company, thus Johan Rilegård and Andreas Kennemar cannot be held financially responsible, even though they are CEO and CTO of Orsoc?

Seems to be a reasonable assumption, otherwise it would be more reasonable to market the product under the Orsoc name.

[jgarzik]

Are any of the controllers going to be OpenCores' OpenRISC?  That would be neat, if so.

[sickpig]

Are any of the controllers going to be OpenCores' OpenRISC?  That would be neat, if so.

dunno if OpenRISC or something else, but definitely it's something that will be made by OrSOC, so OpenRISC should be a candidate  

[crumbs]

I assume it is a limited company, thus Johan Rilegård and Andreas Kennemar cannot be held financially responsible, even though they are CEO and CTO of Orsoc?

Seems to be a reasonable assumption, otherwise it would be more reasonable to market the product under the Orsoc name.

They are marketing the product under the OrSoC name, when you release press that you are "Partnered Up" that puts your name on the line. While I understand that you may not have a firm grasp that there are two  companies involved which means you would need to create another as legal partners, this does not mean the individuals involved with a company cannot be held financially responsible. Many people think just because you create a certain type of company that you become completely safe from legal issues, it doesn't work this way no matter how many tin foil hats you wear.

You have a tendency to go off at half-cock.
If you feel that Orsoc and Kncminer are equally liable simply because the companies share senior officers, i suggest you alter your diet of recreational chemistry.
For instance, in case of Kncminer bankruptcy, Orsoc will continue, unaffected.  
Orsoc would not be held responsible for Kncminer debt.  
Nor will the senior officers of either co.  
Learn to law.

[arbitrage001]

EU rules say: If you did not recieve your product within 30 days you are lawfully entitled to get a refund!

30 days from what?

From order date.

Which I believe is the case with KNC - they have said before that they will refund anyone unless they have started shipping your order

Exactly, if they miss the deadline and you feel that you want a refund. They will give it to you.

They are the only company that is like this, where you can make your bet and have it basically risk free if they don't deliver by the date in your super duper excel mathematical genius bitcoin spreadsheet.

Network difficulty is not the only problem for miner. If the value of bitcoin drop to 50 or less, a lot of people going to abuse the refund promise.

[Meizirkki]

Refund policy is simple: "All sales are final!"

Who are you? why are you spreading FUD? Why is this your first venture out if newbie forums where you've only ever entered competitions for BTC giveaways??

pff. It's a BFL joke not FUD

[Tsukene]

EU rules say: If you did not recieve your product within 30 days you are lawfully entitled to get a refund!

30 days from what?

From order date.

Which I believe is the case with KNC - they have said before that they will refund anyone unless they have started shipping your order

Have a look at their official terms and conditions at their website (one had to accept before one can finalize the order).

First they strictly treat you as a business customer:

"1.2   The Products are sold for business use only and Purchaser hereby accepts that it has purchased the Products in order to conduct a business."

As far as I know, business customers are not that well and comfortable protected by law as private persons are.

Second, there is no word about a refunding policy, as mentioned here (refunding possible until they ship). At least I didn't find it.
I know, that someone shared a KnC email he got, where they say it in that way. But is this binding?

In their terms and conditions is stated:

"8.2  Where delivery is delayed due to any of the circumstances constituting force majeure in accordance with 11 below or due to any act or omission by the Purchaser, the delivery period shall be extended by such a period as is reasonable in light of the circumstances.  The delivery period shall also be extended where the cause of the delay arises after the expiry of the originally agreed delivery period."

and in their definition "force majeure" is almost anything they can't control:

"11.1 KnCMiner is exempted from fulfilling its obligations under this Agreement and is entitled to cancel the Purchaser’s confirmed orders without any liability, in the event of force majeure such as strikes, floods and fires, wars, riots, interruptions in transport, shortage of material or energy sources affecting KnCMiner or its sub-suppliers, accidents or other occurrences which affects sub-suppliers’ production, bankruptcy or compulsory liquidation of a sub-supplier, accidents of any kind, governmental decisions which affects manufacturing or use of the Products and, in general, such events that were unforeseen at the time of the order which prevents or hinder manufacturing, transportation or delivery of the Products to the Purchaser."

No offence, but if "we refund everybody until we start shipping" is their official refunding policy, they should add this also to their official terms and conditions.

EU Law applies to all companies who are located in the EU.
EU Law stands above KnCminers own company T&C ("rules")!

yep you're right, nonetheless if they fail in a bad way and everyone ask for a refund, bankruptcy is almost unavoidable

Same as each current manufacturer, except here if you perform due diligence and clear the purchase with your bank first, you stand a chance to be reimbursed. Anyway we know for sure in a month. So for those on the fence it's not long now.

What about customers who purchased from the US??

[Bitcoinorama]

EU rules say: If you did not recieve your product within 30 days you are lawfully entitled to get a refund!

30 days from what?

From order date.

Which I believe is the case with KNC - they have said before that they will refund anyone unless they have started shipping your order

Have a look at their official terms and conditions at their website (one had to accept before one can finalize the order).

First they strictly treat you as a business customer:

"1.2   The Products are sold for business use only and Purchaser hereby accepts that it has purchased the Products in order to conduct a business."

As far as I know, business customers are not that well and comfortable protected by law as private persons are.

Second, there is no word about a refunding policy, as mentioned here (refunding possible until they ship). At least I didn't find it.
I know, that someone shared a KnC email he got, where they say it in that way. But is this binding?

In their terms and conditions is stated:

"8.2  Where delivery is delayed due to any of the circumstances constituting force majeure in accordance with 11 below or due to any act or omission by the Purchaser, the delivery period shall be extended by such a period as is reasonable in light of the circumstances.  The delivery period shall also be extended where the cause of the delay arises after the expiry of the originally agreed delivery period."

and in their definition "force majeure" is almost anything they can't control:

"11.1 KnCMiner is exempted from fulfilling its obligations under this Agreement and is entitled to cancel the Purchaser’s confirmed orders without any liability, in the event of force majeure such as strikes, floods and fires, wars, riots, interruptions in transport, shortage of material or energy sources affecting KnCMiner or its sub-suppliers, accidents or other occurrences which affects sub-suppliers’ production, bankruptcy or compulsory liquidation of a sub-supplier, accidents of any kind, governmental decisions which affects manufacturing or use of the Products and, in general, such events that were unforeseen at the time of the order which prevents or hinder manufacturing, transportation or delivery of the Products to the Purchaser."

No offence, but if "we refund everybody until we start shipping" is their official refunding policy, they should add this also to their official terms and conditions.

EU Law applies to all companies who are located in the EU.
EU Law stands above KnCminers own company T&C ("rules")!

yep you're right, nonetheless if they fail in a bad way and everyone ask for a refund, bankruptcy is almost unavoidable

Same as each current manufacturer, except here if you perform due diligence and clear the purchase with your bank first, you stand a chance to be reimbursed. Anyway we know for sure in a month. So for those on the fence it's not long now.

What about customers who purchased from the US??

Did you pay by credit card? Amex at a guess would prob be best. Did you ring your card issuing bank prior? What's the consumer protection like in the US?

If you don't know the answer to these Q's, what kind of research have you been doing before investing into any alr currency mining equipment pre-order??

[crumbs]

@Bitcoinorama:
Could you please give us the exact wording you have used when talking to your CC?  I'd like to call mine, but am a bit jittery about telling them that i'm ordering something that may or may not materialize in the future, certainly does not exist now, is promised by a non-US company etc., etc.
I believe i've asked you several times & got no reply. 

[Bitcoinorama]

@Bitcoinorama:
Could you please give us the exact wording you have used when talking to your CC?  I'd like to call mine, but am a bit jittery about telling them that i'm ordering something that may or may not materialize in the future, certainly does not exist now, is promised by a non-US company etc., etc.
I believe i've asked you several times & got no reply.  

I explained it was a computer based device for alternative currency. I explained that another company had had significant delays and any purchase now (June 4th if I rem) would not be for delivery until some time September. That the product has not been made yet and I was concerned over non receipt in future within the given timeframe. I explained that the purchase would be made through Paypal and I had read on some sites discussing section 75 (moneysavingexpert.com *i think*, i linked a load of stuff early in this thread, pretty sure I included that, I certainly did some other Sec 75 links, but otherwise just google) that Paypal acting as a third party payment processor may negate my protection. I was told that was not the case that Paypal will cover the first 45 days, and then Barclay's (my bank) the rest. I have a Barclay's Platinum. Just talk to them, they can't penalise you for asking, and they are there to help. They want your repeat business, and for the record I'm definitely not down with people making separate payments hedging companies against companies and then ditching them at all. Cloudhashing did just this to Terrahash. they are now a KnC customer which I personally think is not cool, especiallynas the owner spams his own facebook page with his real fbook account asking questions to himself to dupe people into investing. Legitimate companies need you to commit funds currently so as they can fund Non-Reoccurring Engineering costs, it's not about a half-arsed commitment by you with the worst intentions, whilst they fully commit with the best intentions. It's about checking what payment protection exists, what legitimate companies exist, looking into them thoroughly and visiting the, where possible, weighing up whether it's worth your and their time, money and effort undertaking such a project. In the case of crap like BFL are pulling, like today they are currently advertising on Facebook with the promise of items in stock, 72 hour delivery, where you are being outright lied to, you have recourse.

Of course at somepoint we hope this to change and we can buy products on stock, or at least with minimal waiting times for manufacture, which is why I'm not betting the farm on KnC to deliver in Sept. there will be more opportunity to consider a bigger investment when they've proved their chips work and within the promised timeframe.  There are other attractive options coming, but they will have a lot of ground to cover regardless of any efficiency savings as KnC products will have hopefully recovered most of the outlay by the time they play catch-up. Also I'm based in Europe and in the UK we now get shafted with an extra steep alto tax on orders from outside the EU above £135...a further 9% levy on a VAT inclusive value of the item! Factor that into the products from outside the EU (I was spanked by bodybuilding.com earlier this year on an order I could and should have split in two had I known - rule was brought in April last year).

EDIT: the BFL Facebook ad thing is incorrect, just found out it is in fact our old friend ASICrigs fraudulently using BFL and also now KnC images;

http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1jwx4u/warning_this_facebook_ad_is_a_scam_if_you_click/
ASICrigs.com
ASICrigs.ag

Also I'm in no way responsible for any assumptions in whether anyone's card issuer, or country's laws protect them. I have always said, call and find out yourself. All I've done is shared what I did, though others if I remember also did the same at purchase. I rem a guy in Germany didn't have a positive answer as German laws were 30 days I think. I'd like to think everyone has, but I heard of unprotected BTC and wire transfer payments being made. I also rem reading people stupidly getting into debt over mining equipment and their keeness due to Bitcoin hype from in media. Always do your own research.

[pixl8tr]

Cloudhashing did just this to Terrahash. they are now a KnC customer which I personally think is not cool, especiallynas the owner spams his own facebook page with his real fbook account asking questions to himself to dupe people into investing.

For those interested in just how low the Cloudhashing owner will go....  LINK HERE

[pixl8tr]

Cloudhashing did just this to Terrahash. they are now a KnC customer which I personally think is not cool, especiallynas the owner spams his own facebook page with his real fbook account asking questions to himself to dupe people into investing.

For those interested in just how low the Cloudhashing owner will go....  LINK HERE

My favorite part about this post is that pixl8tr doesn't even mention BFL, just Cloudhashing because this stunt seems normal for BFL lol

Hahah! Yeah BFL bashing is old.  Time to beat up the new kid on the block.   

[crumbs]

I assume it is a limited company, thus Johan Rilegård and Andreas Kennemar cannot be held financially responsible, even though they are CEO and CTO of Orsoc?

Seems to be a reasonable assumption, otherwise it would be more reasonable to market the product under the Orsoc name.

They are marketing the product under the OrSoC name, when you release press that you are "Partnered Up" that puts your name on the line. While I understand that you may not have a firm grasp that there are two  companies involved which means you would need to create another as legal partners, this does not mean the individuals involved with a company cannot be held financially responsible. Many people think just because you create a certain type of company that you become completely safe from legal issues, it doesn't work this way no matter how many tin foil hats you wear.

You have a tendency to go off at half-cock.
If you feel that Orsoc and Kncminer are equally liable simply because the companies share senior officers, i suggest you alter your diet of recreational chemistry.
For instance, in case of Kncminer bankruptcy, Orsoc will continue, unaffected.  
Orsoc would not be held responsible for Kncminer debt.  
Nor will the senior officers of either co.  
Learn to law.

Seems like your reading comprehension is lacking.

To be blunt I said that anyone that is legally part of KnCMiner's Corporation would be legally bound.
...

Legally bound to what, exactly?  
What does "legally bound" mean?
What does "legally part of" mean?
If you work as a stock boy for Walmart, are you responsible for its debts?  What if you work the register?

You're not being blunt, you're being dull, perhaps obtuse.  Sort-a the same, "not sharp," but not quite.  Language barrier?

[SirWizz]

Cloudhashing did just this to Terrahash. they are now a KnC customer which I personally think is not cool, especiallynas the owner spams his own facebook page with his real fbook account asking questions to himself to dupe people into investing.

For those interested in just how low the Cloudhashing owner will go....  LINK HERE

Holy Moses, some of these guys seem locked into a "How low can you go?" contest... so that's where all that BFL hardware is going .