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Author Topic: Swedish ASIC miner company kncminer.com  (Read 3006878 times)
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August 08, 2013, 04:20:21 PM
 #5301

@Bitcoinorama:
Could you please give us the exact wording you have used when talking to your CC?  I'd like to call mine, but am a bit jittery about telling them that i'm ordering something that may or may not materialize in the future, certainly does not exist now, is promised by a non-US company etc., etc.
I believe i've asked you several times & got no reply. 
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August 08, 2013, 04:35:41 PM
 #5302

@Bitcoinorama:
Could you please give us the exact wording you have used when talking to your CC?  I'd like to call mine, but am a bit jittery about telling them that i'm ordering something that may or may not materialize in the future, certainly does not exist now, is promised by a non-US company etc., etc.
I believe i've asked you several times & got no reply.  

I explained it was a computer based device for alternative currency. I explained that another company had had significant delays and any purchase now (June 4th if I rem) would not be for delivery until some time September. That the product has not been made yet and I was concerned over non receipt in future within the given timeframe. I explained that the purchase would be made through Paypal and I had read on some sites discussing section 75 (moneysavingexpert.com *i think*, i linked a load of stuff early in this thread, pretty sure I included that, I certainly did some other Sec 75 links, but otherwise just google) that Paypal acting as a third party payment processor may negate my protection. I was told that was not the case that Paypal will cover the first 45 days, and then Barclay's (my bank) the rest. I have a Barclay's Platinum. Just talk to them, they can't penalise you for asking, and they are there to help. They want your repeat business, and for the record I'm definitely not down with people making separate payments hedging companies against companies and then ditching them at all. Cloudhashing did just this to Terrahash. they are now a KnC customer which I personally think is not cool, especiallynas the owner spams his own facebook page with his real fbook account asking questions to himself to dupe people into investing. Legitimate companies need you to commit funds currently so as they can fund Non-Reoccurring Engineering costs, it's not about a half-arsed commitment by you with the worst intentions, whilst they fully commit with the best intentions. It's about checking what payment protection exists, what legitimate companies exist, looking into them thoroughly and visiting the, where possible, weighing up whether it's worth your and their time, money and effort undertaking such a project. In the case of crap like BFL are pulling, like today they are currently advertising on Facebook with the promise of items in stock, 72 hour delivery, where you are being outright lied to, you have recourse.

Of course at somepoint we hope this to change and we can buy products on stock, or at least with minimal waiting times for manufacture, which is why I'm not betting the farm on KnC to deliver in Sept. there will be more opportunity to consider a bigger investment when they've proved their chips work and within the promised timeframe.  There are other attractive options coming, but they will have a lot of ground to cover regardless of any efficiency savings as KnC products will have hopefully recovered most of the outlay by the time they play catch-up. Also I'm based in Europe and in the UK we now get shafted with an extra steep alto tax on orders from outside the EU above £135...a further 9% levy on a VAT inclusive value of the item! Factor that into the products from outside the EU (I was spanked by bodybuilding.com earlier this year on an order I could and should have split in two had I known - rule was brought in April last year).

EDIT: the BFL Facebook ad thing is incorrect, just found out it is in fact our old friend ASICrigs fraudulently using BFL and also now KnC images;

http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1jwx4u/warning_this_facebook_ad_is_a_scam_if_you_click/
ASICrigs.com
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Also I'm in no way responsible for any assumptions in whether anyone's card issuer, or country's laws protect them. I have always said, call and find out yourself. All I've done is shared what I did, though others if I remember also did the same at purchase. I rem a guy in Germany didn't have a positive answer as German laws were 30 days I think. I'd like to think everyone has, but I heard of unprotected BTC and wire transfer payments being made. I also rem reading people stupidly getting into debt over mining equipment and their keeness due to Bitcoin hype from in media. Always do your own research.

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August 08, 2013, 04:41:38 PM
 #5303

Cloudhashing did just this to Terrahash. they are now a KnC customer which I personally think is not cool, especiallynas the owner spams his own facebook page with his real fbook account asking questions to himself to dupe people into investing.

For those interested in just how low the Cloudhashing owner will go....  LINK HERE

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August 08, 2013, 04:52:09 PM
 #5304

Cloudhashing did just this to Terrahash. they are now a KnC customer which I personally think is not cool, especiallynas the owner spams his own facebook page with his real fbook account asking questions to himself to dupe people into investing.

For those interested in just how low the Cloudhashing owner will go....  LINK HERE

My favorite part about this post is that pixl8tr doesn't even mention BFL, just Cloudhashing because this stunt seems normal for BFL lol

Hahah! Yeah BFL bashing is old.  Time to beat up the new kid on the block.   Grin

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August 08, 2013, 04:52:24 PM
 #5305

I assume it is a limited company, thus Johan Rilegård and Andreas Kennemar cannot be held financially responsible, even though they are CEO and CTO of Orsoc?

Seems to be a reasonable assumption, otherwise it would be more reasonable to market the product under the Orsoc name.

They are marketing the product under the OrSoC name, when you release press that you are "Partnered Up" that puts your name on the line. While I understand that you may not have a firm grasp that there are two  companies involved which means you would need to create another as legal partners, this does not mean the individuals involved with a company cannot be held financially responsible. Many people think just because you create a certain type of company that you become completely safe from legal issues, it doesn't work this way no matter how many tin foil hats you wear.

You have a tendency to go off at half-cock.
If you feel that Orsoc and Kncminer are equally liable simply because the companies share senior officers, i suggest you alter your diet of recreational chemistry.
For instance, in case of Kncminer bankruptcy, Orsoc will continue, unaffected.  
Orsoc would not be held responsible for Kncminer debt.  
Nor will the senior officers of either co.  
Learn to law. Smiley

Seems like your reading comprehension is lacking.

To be blunt I said that anyone that is legally part of KnCMiner's Corporation would be legally bound.
...

Legally bound to what, exactly?  
What does "legally bound" mean?
What does "legally part of" mean?
If you work as a stock boy for Walmart, are you responsible for its debts?  What if you work the register?

You're not being blunt, you're being dull, perhaps obtuse.  Sort-a the same, "not sharp," but not quite.  Language barrier?
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August 08, 2013, 05:06:49 PM
 #5306

Cloudhashing did just this to Terrahash. they are now a KnC customer which I personally think is not cool, especiallynas the owner spams his own facebook page with his real fbook account asking questions to himself to dupe people into investing.

For those interested in just how low the Cloudhashing owner will go....  LINK HERE

Holy Moses, some of these guys seem locked into a "How low can you go?" contest... so that's where all that BFL hardware is going Grin.
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August 08, 2013, 05:19:04 PM
 #5307



Well you're pretty close with Hashfast now Gateway and you gotta agree Ytterbium nails it here;


Making everyone sign an NDA is pretty stupid.  I requested to go to the open house and was told: 'no' we're full.  Not a huge fan of these guys right now.  We know that they had an open house.  However, we have no clue what was discussed.  So, what was the point of it?

It's kind of annoying.

On the other hand, their main public competition right now is Cointerra, it's probably something of a game of chicken with them, they don't want to put out specs before Cointerra does if it means Cointerra can try to one up them.

Anyway, as far as I'm concerned the hashrate is going to be going up way to quickly to bother buying any more hashpower at this point in time.  We'll have to see where things are in December, and what the prices are.

I'm a little worried people aren't really doing their research or thinking clearly are going to order a ton of product they'll never ROI off of, and at the same time destroy profitability for everyone else as well.


I'd say as much as companies want to be open, now there is competition which hopefully leads to better value for equipment for us over the long term. All that matters for us though are the returns to be made, how soon we can get started, the protection of the network and the integrity of those involved...

You are correct about HashFast but I also spent my hard earned money with KNC and was one of their first 500 so I have interest in what their status is.

Also with NDAs I do not take them lightly working in the industry I'm in, in fact we have many on place at our company about the next gen gme console and you won't hear me breaking any NDA I sign.

Trust me if one of the next gen console people found who actually leaked info their are consequences

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August 08, 2013, 05:32:06 PM
 #5308



Well you're pretty close with Hashfast now Gateway and you gotta agree Ytterbium nails it here;


Making everyone sign an NDA is pretty stupid.  I requested to go to the open house and was told: 'no' we're full.  Not a huge fan of these guys right now.  We know that they had an open house.  However, we have no clue what was discussed.  So, what was the point of it?

It's kind of annoying.

On the other hand, their main public competition right now is Cointerra, it's probably something of a game of chicken with them, they don't want to put out specs before Cointerra does if it means Cointerra can try to one up them.

Anyway, as far as I'm concerned the hashrate is going to be going up way to quickly to bother buying any more hashpower at this point in time.  We'll have to see where things are in December, and what the prices are.

I'm a little worried people aren't really doing their research or thinking clearly are going to order a ton of product they'll never ROI off of, and at the same time destroy profitability for everyone else as well.


I'd say as much as companies want to be open, now there is competition which hopefully leads to better value for equipment for us over the long term. All that matters for us though are the returns to be made, how soon we can get started, the protection of the network and the integrity of those involved...

You are correct about HashFast but I also spent my hard earned money with KNC and was one of their first 500 so I have interest in what their status is.

Also with NDAs I do not take them lightly working in the industry I'm in, in fact we have many on place at our company about the next ten console and you won't hear me breaking any NDA I sign.

Trust me if one of the next gen console people found who actually leaked info their are consequences

No of course, but it would have to be something only few are privy to and even then it could be hard to prove without strong evidence. I'm not trying to encourage anyone to do so, I just as a company would never assume what was kept with in an NDA would never be gossiped about, and as a signatory would like to think integrity counts for something.

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August 08, 2013, 05:54:17 PM
 #5309


No of course, but it would have to be something only few are privy to and even then it could be hard to prove without strong evidence. I'm not trying to encourage anyone to do so, I just as a company would never assume what was kept with in an NDA would never be gossiped about, and as a signatory would like to think integrity counts for something.

spot on with the integrity..

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August 08, 2013, 06:07:05 PM
 #5310


For those interested in just how low the Cloudhashing owner will go....  LINK HERE

I read that whole thing and still don't understand it.

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August 08, 2013, 06:17:20 PM
 #5311

Have a look at their official terms and conditions at their website (one had to accept before one can finalize the order).

First they strictly treat you as a business customer:

"1.2   The Products are sold for business use only and Purchaser hereby accepts that it has purchased the Products in order to conduct a business."

I specifically asked KnCMiner about this point of their terms and conditions:
Quote from: Me
Q: Hi,
I read the following clause in your terms and conditions page:

"1.2   The Products are sold for business use only and Purchaser hereby
accepts that it has purchased the Products in order to conduct a business."

What does this implies?
I don't have an EU VAT number, can I still buy your products as a private individual?
Quote from: KnCMiner
A: Hi,

Yes you can still buy our products. What it means is that we don't sell consumer goods and therefore you as a customer are expected to have made an informed decision. Ordinary consumer rights legislation does not apply to the purchase. Instead the terms and conditions regulate warranty etc.

Thanks,
Carl

So, it appears they're effectively trying to safeguard themselves against "ordinary consumer rights legislation" but I don't think that their T&C is valid if in contrast with the EU law. I'm not a lawyer but I think there is the possibility that pretending to apply business rules to consumers by means of their T&C (the contract) could be deemed as an "unfair contract term".
Obviously, since every "EU law" is actually an "EU directive", what makes a (legal) point is Sweden's implementation of the consumer rights EU directives.

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August 08, 2013, 06:19:31 PM
 #5312


For those interested in just how low the Cloudhashing owner will go....  LINK HERE

I read that whole thing and still don't understand it.

It was a slow day for me so I read it too...   I never thought BFL holds the queue as gospel and expected them to hash with some and sell off some to the highest bidders and I think that is all it was showing...  Wave $100k in their face and you may get invited out to dinner.  Sorry, I exaggerated..  lunch, not dinner.

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August 08, 2013, 06:25:34 PM
 #5313

Hmm, so that's what became of that $100K offer on ebay that was declined last month for a MR. The timeline & accompanying offer amount makes a perverse sort of sense.
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August 08, 2013, 06:31:13 PM
 #5314

Hmm, so that's what became of that $100K offer on ebay that was declined last month for a MR. The timeline & accompanying offer amount makes a perverse sort of sense.

Link?

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August 08, 2013, 06:31:22 PM
 #5315

The jitter-meter seems to be edging up -- time to give the kids an update please...
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August 08, 2013, 06:33:31 PM
 #5316

The jitter-meter seems to be edging up -- time to give the kids an update please...

It hasn't even been a week yet.

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August 08, 2013, 06:36:04 PM
 #5317

The jitter-meter seems to be edging up -- time to give the kids an update please...

I believe there is a site that accepts btc where you can buy some meds for your jitters...
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August 08, 2013, 06:37:46 PM
 #5318

Hmm, so that's what became of that $100K offer on ebay that was declined last month for a MR. The timeline & accompanying offer amount makes a perverse sort of sense.

Link?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ButterflyLabs-Bitcoin-Miner-BitForce-500-GH-s-Mini-Rig-NOT-PRE-ORDER-/290944772707?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item43bda8ea63
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August 08, 2013, 06:38:23 PM
 #5319

The jitter-meter seems to be edging up -- time to give the kids an update please...

It hasn't even been a week yet.

Last official update on the website: Hosting News 2013 July 23  Tongue

I think a little update would be good!  Roll Eyes
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August 08, 2013, 06:48:48 PM
 #5320

Yup, that's the one. This, along with the chat logs and offer amount...

...curious timing, no?
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