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Author Topic: Swedish ASIC miner company kncminer.com  (Read 3039472 times)
jmevz
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August 16, 2013, 04:45:48 AM
 #6121

Seeing as there hasn't been any troll comments on this thread for almost an hour, I'll ask a question.

Anyone buying one of these thought about security? Like, what to do if their miner is stolen by some bum who breaks in and thinks it's a fancy desktop PC?

Any thoughts? Getting some kind of serial number engraved on the case? Marking the PCB somehow? Some kind of tracking that is it powers up, gps coordinates get send somewhere? I imagine high end industiral machinery must have something like this to protect the investment, but I don't really know.

Someone nicks mine in February, I do a little dance and call the insurance company. Then I'd have the cash to buy either a discounted replacement or something better if it exists.
I already asked my company (Morethan) and they just said to do like I already do with other "attractive items" worth ove a grand and declare it to them. IF I didn't, it wouldn't be covered. Probably different to other companies so worth a phone call.

A simple laptop security cable and lock (maybe modified) will do to stop most thieves, they want to get in and out ASAP and won't want to mess about.
I use one on my bike and it's worked twice now that I know of.

You could also whack a Butterfly Labs sticker on it, then no-one would want it Smiley


lol at the last line

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kingcoin
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August 16, 2013, 05:45:57 AM
 #6122

Do not be angry, but it seems that these guys do not know what they make.
If you have a chip with 192 cores asics performing a hash per cycle.
520,000,000 cycles are 520 Mhz    99840000000 hashes 99.84Ghs  
620,000,000 cycles are 600 Mhz  115200000000 hashes 115.2Ghs

But this is not important, the important thing is to know ETA chips.

You're right.  It's not important.

But other then that of course they don't know what the final specs will be.  They won't know that until the chips are done. It depends on the yield as far as the hasher engines.  It depends on thermal output. It depends on a lot of things. Avalon chips are actually underclocked and undervolted, presumably to help with cooling and power, yet they perform 36-40% better then what they were advertized as. .  That's because Bitsyncom gave themselves a large margin between what they advertized and what they were designing for (their chips work up to 450Mhz at the right voltage)


Actually you do know the performance of the chip before it's made.

The ASIC vendor will give you timing models and you run static timing analysis on your design and it will tell you the critical path and how fast the device will operate.

However, in most cases the produced device will be faster than the spec. Hence it's possible to overclock the device. But you have no guarantee that the next batch of devices will be as fast, it might be slower, or it might be even faster.

As for thermal they should have a pretty good idea. You try to run a worst case simulation where you generate a VCD file which will show how all the nets in the chip is toggling. Then you run this through some power estimation tool (given a specific package) given by the vendor. This is not 100% accurate and depends on how representative the VCD file is for your worst case. But it gives you a pretty good estimate. Then there are tools to simulate the thermal characteristics of your mechanical system.
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August 16, 2013, 09:34:50 AM
 #6123

Do not be angry, but it seems that these guys do not know what they make.
If you have a chip with 192 cores asics performing a hash per cycle.
520,000,000 cycles are 520 Mhz    99840000000 hashes 99.84Ghs  
620,000,000 cycles are 600 Mhz  115200000000 hashes 115.2Ghs

But this is not important, the important thing is to know ETA chips.

You're right.  It's not important.

But other then that of course they don't know what the final specs will be.  They won't know that until the chips are done. It depends on the yield as far as the hasher engines.  It depends on thermal output. It depends on a lot of things. Avalon chips are actually underclocked and undervolted, presumably to help with cooling and power, yet they perform 36-40% better then what they were advertized as. .  That's because Bitsyncom gave themselves a large margin between what they advertized and what they were designing for (their chips work up to 450Mhz at the right voltage)


Actually you do know the performance of the chip before it's made.

The ASIC vendor will give you timing models and you run static timing analysis on your design and it will tell you the critical path and how fast the device will operate.

However, in most cases the produced device will be faster than the spec. Hence it's possible to overclock the device. But you have no guarantee that the next batch of devices will be as fast, it might be slower, or it might be even faster.

As for thermal they should have a pretty good idea. You try to run a worst case simulation where you generate a VCD file which will show how all the nets in the chip is toggling. Then you run this through some power estimation tool (given a specific package) given by the vendor. This is not 100% accurate and depends on how representative the VCD file is for your worst case. But it gives you a pretty good estimate. Then there are tools to simulate the thermal characteristics of your mechanical system.

BFL was way off, and Bitfury's chips also ended up using more power then expected. And, of course if the power draw is too high, then you have to do things like reduce the clock speed/voltage in order to keep it cool. It's reasonable to give yourself some design margin since other bitcoin ASICs have used more power then anticipated.

So, I'm sure they have an expected value, but they won't know if their simulations are correct until the chips arrive, and if you say "our chip uses x Watts" and design the system around that, and you're wrong, then you're fucked (that's what happened to BFL, all their fans/PSUs didn't work)

kingcoin
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August 16, 2013, 11:27:25 AM
 #6124

Do not be angry, but it seems that these guys do not know what they make.
If you have a chip with 192 cores asics performing a hash per cycle.
520,000,000 cycles are 520 Mhz    99840000000 hashes 99.84Ghs  
620,000,000 cycles are 600 Mhz  115200000000 hashes 115.2Ghs

But this is not important, the important thing is to know ETA chips.

You're right.  It's not important.

But other then that of course they don't know what the final specs will be.  They won't know that until the chips are done. It depends on the yield as far as the hasher engines.  It depends on thermal output. It depends on a lot of things. Avalon chips are actually underclocked and undervolted, presumably to help with cooling and power, yet they perform 36-40% better then what they were advertized as. .  That's because Bitsyncom gave themselves a large margin between what they advertized and what they were designing for (their chips work up to 450Mhz at the right voltage)


Actually you do know the performance of the chip before it's made.

The ASIC vendor will give you timing models and you run static timing analysis on your design and it will tell you the critical path and how fast the device will operate.

However, in most cases the produced device will be faster than the spec. Hence it's possible to overclock the device. But you have no guarantee that the next batch of devices will be as fast, it might be slower, or it might be even faster.

As for thermal they should have a pretty good idea. You try to run a worst case simulation where you generate a VCD file which will show how all the nets in the chip is toggling. Then you run this through some power estimation tool (given a specific package) given by the vendor. This is not 100% accurate and depends on how representative the VCD file is for your worst case. But it gives you a pretty good estimate. Then there are tools to simulate the thermal characteristics of your mechanical system.

BFL was way off, and Bitfury's chips also ended up using more power then expected. And, of course if the power draw is too high, then you have to do things like reduce the clock speed/voltage in order to keep it cool. It's reasonable to give yourself some design margin since other bitcoin ASICs have used more power then anticipated.

So, I'm sure they have an expected value, but they won't know if their simulations are correct until the chips arrive, and if you say "our chip uses x Watts" and design the system around that, and you're wrong, then you're fucked (that's what happened to BFL, all their fans/PSUs didn't work)

That is true. The timing models and static timing analysis of the ASIC's are very accurate. But they are given at a certain power supply level and temperature. If you mess up your mechanical, thermal and PSU design so these conditions are not satisfied then you're pretty much screwed.

However, if you then start to test your system and push the margins you will be screwed again since you don't know where in the process window the particular chip you have in the lab is. If it's a best case device then your systems might fail when you get a new batch of ASIC's which are not best case. Your production line will halt and you have to start debugging again. Or even worse, if your production test is not optimal you will not notice until customers starts to complain and return your product.
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August 16, 2013, 12:27:04 PM
 #6125

That is true. The timing models and static timing analysis of the ASIC's are very accurate. But they are given at a certain power supply level and temperature. If you mess up your mechanical, thermal and PSU design so these conditions are not satisfied then you're pretty much screwed.

However, if you then start to test your system and push the margins you will be screwed again since you don't know where in the process window the particular chip you have in the lab is. If it's a best case device then your systems might fail when you get a new batch of ASIC's which are not best case. Your production line will halt and you have to start debugging again. Or even worse, if your production test is not optimal you will not notice until customers starts to complain and return your product.

There will be for sure a lot of fun in the KnC lab! Wink

They stated at the open day, that they will not do any classical ASIC production tests (neither wafer test nor final test). If this is still true, it means they will package the dies and put the resulting chips on the PCBs blind.
If the chips work at all and at which speed they probably can determine by running a complete miner only. In worst case this can result in tweaking each box individually.
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August 16, 2013, 01:07:45 PM
 #6126

I was trying to figure out if it was more financially attractive to do the hosting option for the Jupiter I ordered and decided to send them an e-mail:

Quote
Hi - I have a Jupiter scheduled for day 1 shipping.  Can you give me an estimate of how long the 'zone 7' shipping will take (from sweden to the US).  Alternatively, what UPS service class (e.g. express delivery) will be used to deliver the products?  The UPS webpage says something like 4 days for delivery.. and I'm trying to figure out if it makes sense to purchase hosting.

Just got an e-mail back from KNC

Quote
We ship with air freight so it will most likely take 2-4 days.

Thanks,
Carl 

Doing some rough math, If KNC ships around the end of September, a 400gh/s unit will be producing around 2 bitcoins per day at a difficulty of around 100mm.

If it takes 4 days to get the device, I will have lost out on 800$ USD (equiv of worst case scenario of mining opportunity cost).  I'll also have to buy a power supply and pay for electricity, which will amount to about 400 bucks over the 6 months.

Therefore, I figure the risk premium associated with hosting is about 1k to get the peace of mind of 24/7 hashing.  Does anyone have any thoughts that would help me decide one way or the other?
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August 16, 2013, 01:15:22 PM
 #6127

Actually there was a thread where some guy had his Avalon stolen ...
but I couldn't be bothered looking for it and I don't know what came of it.

Yeah that guy had also announced to the world how rich he was through Bitcoin, his name and where he lived.

He then followed it up by selling his Porsche for Bitcoin and basking in the press again stating how rich he was, what his name was and where he lived.

He then promptly told everyone about his Avalon printing press. He may as well have left the door open to be fair. People need to use some common sense. If these were jewellery boxes you wouldn't tell all who would listed what you had and where you kept it, now would you?

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August 16, 2013, 01:27:00 PM
 #6128

Actually there was a thread where some guy had his Avalon stolen ...
but I couldn't be bothered looking for it and I don't know what came of it.

Yeah that guy had also announced to the world how rich he was through Bitcoin, his name and where he lived.

He then followed it up by selling his Porsche for Bitcoin and basking in the press again stating how rich he was, what his name was and where he lived.

He then promptly told everyone about his Avalon printing press. He may as well have left the door open to be fair. People need to use some common sense. If these were jewellery boxes you wouldn't tell all who would listed what you had and where you kept it, now would you?

Bitcoinorama, why don't you register as a reseller?
I'll be ordering 2 Jupiters soon and to be honest there's no one I feel I can trust.
I wrote to John K, Graet, theymos and Gavin, but nothing Sad
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August 16, 2013, 01:28:24 PM
 #6129

Shame you didn't ask how long to get it hashing if hosted. That's got to take some time, they arent hosted at the factory and need setting up when they get to the hosting facility. Hard to compare without knowing that.

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CYPER
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August 16, 2013, 01:31:29 PM
 #6130

Shame you didn't ask how long to get it hashing if hosted. That's got to take some time, they arent hosted at the factory and need setting up when they get to the hosting facility. Hard to compare without knowing that.

Call and ask Wink

I just got off the phone with Sam and he was really helpful and gave me answers to all my questions Smiley
So don't be shy and call if you have questions Smiley
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Hell?


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August 16, 2013, 01:33:46 PM
 #6131

Shame you didn't ask how long to get it hashing if hosted. That's got to take some time, they arent hosted at the factory and need setting up when they get to the hosting facility. Hard to compare without knowing that.

Call and ask Wink

I just got off the phone with Sam and he was really helpful and gave me answers to all my questions Smiley
So don't be shy and call if you have questions Smiley

anything you can share with us?
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August 16, 2013, 01:48:20 PM
 #6132

Actually there was a thread where some guy had his Avalon stolen ...
but I couldn't be bothered looking for it and I don't know what came of it.

Yeah that guy had also announced to the world how rich he was through Bitcoin, his name and where he lived.

He then followed it up by selling his Porsche for Bitcoin and basking in the press again stating how rich he was, what his name was and where he lived.

He then promptly told everyone about his Avalon printing press. He may as well have left the door open to be fair. People need to use some common sense. If these were jewellery boxes you wouldn't tell all who would listed what you had and where you kept it, now would you?

Bitcoinorama, why don't you register as a reseller?
I'll be ordering 2 Jupiters soon and to be honest there's no one I feel I can trust.
I wrote to John K, Graet, theymos and Gavin, but nothing Sad

Because of all the BS associated with attending a fricking openday (something I offed to do for more than one other company prior when I thought they may be a scam), Coupled with the belief that somehow as I got off my ass and asked questions others here wrote (we spent the week or two before compiling q's here from members) I'm either a shill, some rogue agent provocoteur for the government talking down Bitcoin in place of BTC, or on the payroll of Visa or Mcard I personally don't think it's right that I'm in line of any kind of payment or be seen promoting for reward until such point that the company makes good on it's word. I'm not a paid promoter. I never was a paid promoter, and I may only consider being paid if something tangible exists to promote. So perhaps after they have a chip I'll get my feet wet there. It's an integrity thing.

That said with a reward of 1 unit for every 10 sold, I'd live to know how many I've helped in the decision process, and what size those orders were, although at no point have I told anyone to buy anything, and I have strictly said to use anything I wrote in addition to your own research. Sensible advice, but having seen this recent affiliate offer I certainly wouldn't turn down being acknowledged for my effort in due course. However I went off my own steam, for my own agenda, to determine whether I wanted to part with my own cash on this. I was vocal before, so it was the logical thing to give feedback to people, what I don't understand is why no one has done this elsewhere. We had Daggeteo write words here in the week before I went. And we've had a guy a Terrahash, Knightlife write a report with pictures. It seems logical, but people prefer to sit and bark accusations at those that do instead. Still that's the lowest common denominator in the scheme of things. If you're buying and helped either tell Sam or Andreas I helped, maybe they'll keep a tally, or tip me a drink in the addy below.  You've been one of the few that followed through and made some calls prior to make sure you're behaving responsibly before purchasing anything here, so good luck bud Wink


Make my day! Say thanks if you found me helpful Smiley BTC Address --->
1487ThaKjezGA6SiE8fvGcxbgJJu6XWtZp
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August 16, 2013, 01:53:18 PM
 #6133

You've been one of the few that followed through and made some calls prior to make sure you're behaving responsibly before purchasing anything here, so good luck bud Wink

When I spoke with him today he made a remark: "It's good you did a research", which most people don't do Smiley

Still I don't see a reason why you souldn't register as a reseller Smiley
It's free Smiley
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August 16, 2013, 01:55:00 PM
 #6134

Shame you didn't ask how long to get it hashing if hosted. That's got to take some time, they arent hosted at the factory and need setting up when they get to the hosting facility. Hard to compare without knowing that.

They indicate on their website that the hosted units will be hashing within 1 hour (or so) of being finished at the factory.  I assume this timing to be non material to the decision.
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August 16, 2013, 01:59:03 PM
 #6135

Shame you didn't ask how long to get it hashing if hosted. That's got to take some time, they arent hosted at the factory and need setting up when they get to the hosting facility. Hard to compare without knowing that.

When I asked about this when they first announced a hosting solution, they said they would host in October
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August 16, 2013, 02:00:47 PM
 #6136

You've been one of the few that followed through and made some calls prior to make sure you're behaving responsibly before purchasing anything here, so good luck bud Wink

When I spoke with him today he made a remark: "It's good you did a research", which most people don't do Smiley

Still I don't see a reason why you souldn't register as a reseller Smiley
It's free Smiley

I may do once chips are in their hands and proven to exist. Until which point I'm still the scum of the earth according to this forum. I'd be damned if I did, and damned if I didn't. I'd personally prefer the lesser of two evils and wait before adding any kind of reseller link for myself. The abuse is just not worth it. I'm sure if everything work out as planned there will still be reasons to demonise me. I actually kind of regret going if I'm honest.

Make my day! Say thanks if you found me helpful Smiley BTC Address --->
1487ThaKjezGA6SiE8fvGcxbgJJu6XWtZp
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August 16, 2013, 02:01:02 PM
 #6137

Actually there was a thread where some guy had his Avalon stolen ...
but I couldn't be bothered looking for it and I don't know what came of it.

Yeah that guy had also announced to the world how rich he was through Bitcoin, his name and where he lived.

He then followed it up by selling his Porsche for Bitcoin and basking in the press again stating how rich he was, what his name was and where he lived.

He then promptly told everyone about his Avalon printing press. He may as well have left the door open to be fair. People need to use some common sense. If these were jewellery boxes you wouldn't tell all who would listed what you had and where you kept it, now would you?

Bitcoinorama, why don't you register as a reseller?
I'll be ordering 2 Jupiters soon and to be honest there's no one I feel I can trust.
I wrote to John K, Graet, theymos and Gavin, but nothing Sad

Why don't you  register as reseller and buy off yourself.

Or was this the question to knc when you called them?
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August 16, 2013, 02:07:59 PM
 #6138


Why don't you  register as reseller and buy off yourself.

Or was this the question to knc when you called them?

No, I haven't asked them that.
And I intend to purchase just 2x Jupiters, which is nowhere near the 10 sales quota.
Unless there are people who would trust me and order though me Smiley
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August 16, 2013, 02:09:47 PM
 #6139


Bitcoinorama, why don't you register as a reseller?
I'll be ordering 2 Jupiters soon and to be honest there's no one I feel I can trust.
I wrote to John K, Graet, theymos and Gavin, but nothing Sad

You don't have to trust anyone. (other than KnC)
All the reseller does is get you to order from KnC with their reseller ID.
If you're buying a new machine you use your favorite reseller's "reseller id" when you do so.
It's all done through KnC.

It's more of a referral bonus than a traditional "reseller".
That's why KnC can allow any previous customer to be a 'reseller'.

I'd imagine a couple of the popular posters will get some shiny before it's all said and done.

See the link below, It just tells KnC to credit me 1/10 of a unit if you order using my number.

https://www.kncminer.com/?resellerid=206

(^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ shameful plug)

If you were referring to shady "shares of the resulting miner" arrangements or somesuch, nevermind you're on your own.

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August 16, 2013, 02:12:19 PM
 #6140

+1
that's right, why would you need to trust the re-seller, and you have to use one.
you would be paying KnC and would be shipped directly from KnC.
there should be no trust issues
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