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Author Topic: Swedish ASIC miner company kncminer.com  (Read 3011422 times)
DyslexicZombei
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August 08, 2013, 07:24:21 PM
 #5321

I'm sure it's just one of those cosmic coincidences you hear of.   Cheesy Roll Eyes

All I know is I just sold my BFL pre-orders cuz I'm sick of their so-called "300-400 units" shipping a day with no real progress.

Will be spending the proceeds on KnC and/or BitFury pre-order. You know: companies that'll be shipping product in volume soon (we hope).
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August 08, 2013, 07:47:48 PM
 #5322

When can we realistically expect to see a prototype running?

It seems like its time for a significant update from KnC to include a more definitive timeline with specific milestones -- the way difficulty is going, Sept. 1 is a lot different from Sept. 30.

I'm hoping KnC continues to set the bar high with regard to customer communication.

My thoughts exactly. Would be nice to see a working unit and get exact shipping dates especially if you considering (like me) buying now an getting it in October.
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August 08, 2013, 07:49:19 PM
 #5323

Can we please move BFL chatter to a BFL-related thread?

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August 08, 2013, 08:12:26 PM
 #5324

Have a look at their official terms and conditions at their website (one had to accept before one can finalize the order).

First they strictly treat you as a business customer:

"1.2   The Products are sold for business use only and Purchaser hereby accepts that it has purchased the Products in order to conduct a business."

I specifically asked KnCMiner about this point of their terms and conditions:
Quote from: Me
Q: Hi,
I read the following clause in your terms and conditions page:

"1.2   The Products are sold for business use only and Purchaser hereby
accepts that it has purchased the Products in order to conduct a business."

What does this implies?
I don't have an EU VAT number, can I still buy your products as a private individual?
Quote from: KnCMiner
A: Hi,

Yes you can still buy our products. What it means is that we don't sell consumer goods and therefore you as a customer are expected to have made an informed decision. Ordinary consumer rights legislation does not apply to the purchase. Instead the terms and conditions regulate warranty etc.

Thanks,
Carl

So, it appears they're effectively trying to safeguard themselves against "ordinary consumer rights legislation" but I don't think that their T&C is valid if in contrast with the EU law. I'm not a lawyer but I think there is the possibility that pretending to apply business rules to consumers by means of their T&C (the contract) could be deemed as an "unfair contract term".
Obviously, since every "EU law" is actually an "EU directive", what makes a (legal) point is Sweden's implementation of the consumer rights EU directives.

By buying their products you are agreeing to the T&C and thus explicitly agreeing that you are acting as a business and thus "forfeiting" consumer rights.

This is clear in Belgian law (double checked, lawyers & all) but I'm waiting for an answer re EU law (might not be fast).

The Section 75 bit *WOULD* only apply in the UK (and I'm really not sure it would stick - CC phone operators are not exactly in charge of these things and I wouldn't be surprised if their promises/word were discarded by the first judge).

if you say you are a business, you buy business only equipment, to use for a business purpose, then you want to convince your CC company/judge you're a consumer? If it quacks like a duck...

Also, if there was to be a massive refund, it would mean bankrupcy for KNCMINER and thus no money for anyone. Alea jacta est, the only thing you can do now is wait.

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August 08, 2013, 08:44:01 PM
 #5325

EU rules say: If you did not recieve your product within 30 days you are lawfully entitled to get a refund!

30 days from what?
From order date.

Which I believe is the case with KNC - they have said before that they will refund anyone unless they have started shipping your order Wink

Have a look at their official terms and conditions at their website (one had to accept before one can finalize the order).

First they strictly treat you as a business customer:

"1.2   The Products are sold for business use only and Purchaser hereby accepts that it has purchased the Products in order to conduct a business."

As far as I know, business customers are not that well and comfortable protected by law as private persons are.

Second, there is no word about a refunding policy, as mentioned here (refunding possible until they ship). At least I didn't find it.
I know, that someone shared a KnC email he got, where they say it in that way. But is this binding?

In their terms and conditions is stated:

"8.2  Where delivery is delayed due to any of the circumstances constituting force majeure in accordance with 11 below or due to any act or omission by the Purchaser, the delivery period shall be extended by such a period as is reasonable in light of the circumstances.  The delivery period shall also be extended where the cause of the delay arises after the expiry of the originally agreed delivery period."

and in their definition "force majeure" is almost anything they can't control:

"11.1 KnCMiner is exempted from fulfilling its obligations under this Agreement and is entitled to cancel the Purchaser’s confirmed orders without any liability, in the event of force majeure such as strikes, floods and fires, wars, riots, interruptions in transport, shortage of material or energy sources affecting KnCMiner or its sub-suppliers, accidents or other occurrences which affects sub-suppliers’ production, bankruptcy or compulsory liquidation of a sub-supplier, accidents of any kind, governmental decisions which affects manufacturing or use of the Products and, in general, such events that were unforeseen at the time of the order which prevents or hinder manufacturing, transportation or delivery of the Products to the Purchaser."

No offence, but if "we refund everybody until we start shipping" is their official refunding policy, they should add this also to their official terms and conditions.

EU Law applies to all companies who are located in the EU.
EU Law stands above KnCminers own company T&C ("rules")!

yep you're right, nonetheless if they fail in a bad way and everyone ask for a refund, bankruptcy is almost unavoidable

Same as each current manufacturer, except here if you perform due diligence and clear the purchase with your bank first, you stand a chance to be reimbursed. Anyway we know for sure in a month. So for those on the fence it's not long now.

What about customers who purchased from the US??

Did you pay by credit card? Amex at a guess would prob be best. Did you ring your card issuing bank prior? What's the consumer protection like in the US?

If you don't know the answer to these Q's, what kind of research have you been doing before investing into any alr currency mining equipment pre-order??

Amex Policy within the States is 60 days - which is crap considering how much people rave about Amex customer service. The only card that I have found which has an unlimited dispute window is Discovercard but require documentation. However, it still remains to be seen whether their unlimited dispute promise has any teeth or not.
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August 08, 2013, 08:47:24 PM
 #5326


Amex Policy within the States is 60 days - which is crap considering how much people rave about Amex customer service. The only card that I have found which has an unlimited dispute window is Discovercard but require documentation. However, it still remains to be seen whether their unlimited dispute promise has any teeth or not.

I just spoke with Discover today, and they said their chargeback/dispute window is 90 days.
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August 08, 2013, 08:57:07 PM
 #5327


Amex Policy within the States is 60 days - which is crap considering how much people rave about Amex customer service. The only card that I have found which has an unlimited dispute window is Discovercard but require documentation. However, it still remains to be seen whether their unlimited dispute promise has any teeth or not.

I just spoke with Discover today, and they said their chargeback/dispute window is 90 days.

great -  I am puttin my upgrade on one they just sent me with 0% intro interest

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gmaxwell
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August 08, 2013, 10:22:42 PM
 #5328

Please keep BFL (other other unrelated vendor stuff) out of this thread.  As a reminder: the initial post in a thread sets the topic, the other posts should be related to the topic.

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August 08, 2013, 10:32:03 PM
 #5329

Have a look at their official terms and conditions at their website (one had to accept before one can finalize the order).

First they strictly treat you as a business customer:

"1.2   The Products are sold for business use only and Purchaser hereby accepts that it has purchased the Products in order to conduct a business."

I specifically asked KnCMiner about this point of their terms and conditions:
Quote from: Me
Q: Hi,
I read the following clause in your terms and conditions page:

"1.2   The Products are sold for business use only and Purchaser hereby
accepts that it has purchased the Products in order to conduct a business."

What does this implies?
I don't have an EU VAT number, can I still buy your products as a private individual?
Quote from: KnCMiner
A: Hi,

Yes you can still buy our products. What it means is that we don't sell consumer goods and therefore you as a customer are expected to have made an informed decision. Ordinary consumer rights legislation does not apply to the purchase. Instead the terms and conditions regulate warranty etc.

Thanks,
Carl

So, it appears they're effectively trying to safeguard themselves against "ordinary consumer rights legislation" but I don't think that their T&C is valid if in contrast with the EU law. I'm not a lawyer but I think there is the possibility that pretending to apply business rules to consumers by means of their T&C (the contract) could be deemed as an "unfair contract term".
Obviously, since every "EU law" is actually an "EU directive", what makes a (legal) point is Sweden's implementation of the consumer rights EU directives.

By buying their products you are agreeing to the T&C and thus explicitly agreeing that you are acting as a business and thus "forfeiting" consumer rights.

This is clear in Belgian law (double checked, lawyers & all) but I'm waiting for an answer re EU law (might not be fast).

The Section 75 bit *WOULD* only apply in the UK (and I'm really not sure it would stick - CC phone operators are not exactly in charge of these things and I wouldn't be surprised if their promises/word were discarded by the first judge).

if you say you are a business, you buy business only equipment, to use for a business purpose, then you want to convince your CC company/judge you're a consumer? If it quacks like a duck...

Also, if there was to be a massive refund, it would mean bankrupcy for KNCMINER and thus no money for anyone. Alea jacta est, the only thing you can do now is wait.

Sorry, but you can't be serious that some company T&C can define if I am a business user or not. That is defined by me, not them.
They might as well write: "The Products are sold for Moon use only and Purchaser hereby accepts that it has purchased the Products in order to use them on the moon only."
If I decide to be a business I register with the tax authorities in a certain capacity (self employed person, limited company, etc)
Purchasing a product from a company online does not change my tax status or register me as a business entity Smiley

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Phoenix1969
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August 08, 2013, 10:36:12 PM
 #5330

https://www.kncminer.com/pages/faq
Vat at added checkout where applicable, just like I said it was.
It'd also on your account page, in bold print, Mr FUKT.
BTW, what's up with the nick?


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KS
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August 08, 2013, 11:05:49 PM
 #5331

Have a look at their official terms and conditions at their website (one had to accept before one can finalize the order).

First they strictly treat you as a business customer:

"1.2   The Products are sold for business use only and Purchaser hereby accepts that it has purchased the Products in order to conduct a business."

I specifically asked KnCMiner about this point of their terms and conditions:
Quote from: Me
Q: Hi,
I read the following clause in your terms and conditions page:

"1.2   The Products are sold for business use only and Purchaser hereby
accepts that it has purchased the Products in order to conduct a business."

What does this implies?
I don't have an EU VAT number, can I still buy your products as a private individual?
Quote from: KnCMiner
A: Hi,

Yes you can still buy our products. What it means is that we don't sell consumer goods and therefore you as a customer are expected to have made an informed decision. Ordinary consumer rights legislation does not apply to the purchase. Instead the terms and conditions regulate warranty etc.

Thanks,
Carl

So, it appears they're effectively trying to safeguard themselves against "ordinary consumer rights legislation" but I don't think that their T&C is valid if in contrast with the EU law. I'm not a lawyer but I think there is the possibility that pretending to apply business rules to consumers by means of their T&C (the contract) could be deemed as an "unfair contract term".
Obviously, since every "EU law" is actually an "EU directive", what makes a (legal) point is Sweden's implementation of the consumer rights EU directives.

By buying their products you are agreeing to the T&C and thus explicitly agreeing that you are acting as a business and thus "forfeiting" consumer rights.

This is clear in Belgian law (double checked, lawyers & all) but I'm waiting for an answer re EU law (might not be fast).

The Section 75 bit *WOULD* only apply in the UK (and I'm really not sure it would stick - CC phone operators are not exactly in charge of these things and I wouldn't be surprised if their promises/word were discarded by the first judge).

if you say you are a business, you buy business only equipment, to use for a business purpose, then you want to convince your CC company/judge you're a consumer? If it quacks like a duck...

Also, if there was to be a massive refund, it would mean bankrupcy for KNCMINER and thus no money for anyone. Alea jacta est, the only thing you can do now is wait.

Sorry, but you can't be serious that some company T&C can define if I am a business user or not. That is defined by me, not them.
They might as well write: "The Products are sold for Moon use only and Purchaser hereby accepts that it has purchased the Products in order to use them on the moon only."
If I decide to be a business I register with the tax authorities in a certain capacity (self employed person, limited company, etc)
Purchasing a product from a company online does not change my tax status or register me as a business entity Smiley

Of course I am serious.

This contract doesn't change your tax status vis à vis your Taxman, but it means you misrepresented yourself with the intent to gain access to a certain category of equipment you cannot buy as a consumer. That makes you the "bad guy" of the two and if you're trying to pull a "consumer" on them, that's also a breach of contract. Either which puts you on the wrong side of good in case of litigation.

All I'm saying is, if you feel you'll need "consumer protection",  check with a lawyer in your country. The "...but I'm really a consumer" argument doesn't stick where I am, so it's likely to fail elsewhere as well.

As far as I'm concerned, this is all a big gamble in which no one really knows what's going on so be ready to loose all your money and hedge your bets.




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August 08, 2013, 11:06:55 PM
 #5332

By buying their products you are agreeing to the T&C and thus explicitly agreeing that you are acting as a business and thus "forfeiting" consumer rights.

This is clear in Belgian law (double checked, lawyers & all) but I'm waiting for an answer re EU law (might not be fast).

The Section 75 bit *WOULD* only apply in the UK (and I'm really not sure it would stick - CC phone operators are not exactly in charge of these things and I wouldn't be surprised if their promises/word were discarded by the first judge).

if you say you are a business, you buy business only equipment, to use for a business purpose, then you want to convince your CC company/judge you're a consumer? If it quacks like a duck...

Also, if there was to be a massive refund, it would mean bankrupcy for KNCMINER and thus no money for anyone. Alea jacta est, the only thing you can do now is wait.

Sorry, but you can't be serious that some company T&C can define if I am a business user or not. That is defined by me, not them.
They might as well write: "The Products are sold for Moon use only and Purchaser hereby accepts that it has purchased the Products in order to use them on the moon only."
If I decide to be a business I register with the tax authorities in a certain capacity (self employed person, limited company, etc)
Purchasing a product from a company online does not change my tax status or register me as a business entity Smiley

That's exactly my opinion, too.

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August 08, 2013, 11:21:24 PM
 #5333

By buying their products you are agreeing to the T&C and thus explicitly agreeing that you are acting as a business and thus "forfeiting" consumer rights.

This is clear in Belgian law (double checked, lawyers & all) but I'm waiting for an answer re EU law (might not be fast).

The Section 75 bit *WOULD* only apply in the UK (and I'm really not sure it would stick - CC phone operators are not exactly in charge of these things and I wouldn't be surprised if their promises/word were discarded by the first judge).

if you say you are a business, you buy business only equipment, to use for a business purpose, then you want to convince your CC company/judge you're a consumer? If it quacks like a duck...

Also, if there was to be a massive refund, it would mean bankrupcy for KNCMINER and thus no money for anyone. Alea jacta est, the only thing you can do now is wait.

Sorry, but you can't be serious that some company T&C can define if I am a business user or not. That is defined by me, not them.
They might as well write: "The Products are sold for Moon use only and Purchaser hereby accepts that it has purchased the Products in order to use them on the moon only."
If I decide to be a business I register with the tax authorities in a certain capacity (self employed person, limited company, etc)
Purchasing a product from a company online does not change my tax status or register me as a business entity Smiley

Of course I am serious.

This contract doesn't change your tax status vis à vis your Taxman, but it means you misrepresented yourself with the intent to gain access to a certain category of equipment you cannot buy as a consumer.

It would have been so if I would have filled in a fake EU VAT number but that's not been the case, when I ordered I didn't fill in any VAT number and they took my order anyway.
If their intent is to sell to business only they should require a valid VAT number to accept orders.

As far as I'm concerned, this is all a big gamble in which no one really knows what's going on so be ready to loose all your money and hedge your bets.

That's for sure.

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CYPER
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August 08, 2013, 11:25:27 PM
 #5334


If their intent is to sell to business only they should require a valid VAT number to accept orders.



Not a valid point as you are not required by law to register for VAT unless you are above the threshold Wink
So you can be a business entity and have no VAT registration Smiley

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August 08, 2013, 11:37:42 PM
 #5335

By buying their products you are agreeing to the T&C and thus explicitly agreeing that you are acting as a business and thus "forfeiting" consumer rights.

This is clear in Belgian law (double checked, lawyers & all) but I'm waiting for an answer re EU law (might not be fast).

The Section 75 bit *WOULD* only apply in the UK (and I'm really not sure it would stick - CC phone operators are not exactly in charge of these things and I wouldn't be surprised if their promises/word were discarded by the first judge).

if you say you are a business, you buy business only equipment, to use for a business purpose, then you want to convince your CC company/judge you're a consumer? If it quacks like a duck...

Also, if there was to be a massive refund, it would mean bankrupcy for KNCMINER and thus no money for anyone. Alea jacta est, the only thing you can do now is wait.

Sorry, but you can't be serious that some company T&C can define if I am a business user or not. That is defined by me, not them.
They might as well write: "The Products are sold for Moon use only and Purchaser hereby accepts that it has purchased the Products in order to use them on the moon only."
If I decide to be a business I register with the tax authorities in a certain capacity (self employed person, limited company, etc)
Purchasing a product from a company online does not change my tax status or register me as a business entity Smiley

That's exactly my opinion, too.

No one is disputing that.

“In Putin’s Russia bitcoin exchanges you.” - http://www.coindesk.com/ceo-bitcoin-officially-bans-china/
List of major BTC scams https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=576337
Bitstamp "no transfer" banks/countries list: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=270716.0
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August 09, 2013, 12:07:00 AM
 #5336


If their intent is to sell to business only they should require a valid VAT number to accept orders.

Not a valid point as you are not required by law to register for VAT unless you are above the threshold Wink
So you can be a business entity and have no VAT registration Smiley

I don't know if it's true here in Italy that you can be (or purchasing as) a business entity and have no VAT registration, I have to check with an accountant.

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August 09, 2013, 12:47:50 AM
 #5337

By buying their products you are agreeing to the T&C and thus explicitly agreeing that you are acting as a business and thus "forfeiting" consumer rights.

Wow, that's how it works? The website just needs to have the words "for business use only" and they avoid all consumer rights laws?

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August 09, 2013, 12:50:10 AM
 #5338

From what I remember there was a threshold limit in local currency they could sell to per EU country when charging vat on goods. In the UK it's $70k, then they have to apply for a VAT number in that EU country, i'm this case the UK, to be able to continue charging VAT. They registered for every country since opening, so now they can sell to business or consumer *I think*. There was something along those lines mentioned, that was a while back now so email them they will straight up tell you.

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August 09, 2013, 01:44:30 AM
 #5339


Amex Policy within the States is 60 days - which is crap considering how much people rave about Amex customer service. The only card that I have found which has an unlimited dispute window is Discovercard but require documentation. However, it still remains to be seen whether their unlimited dispute promise has any teeth or not.

I just spoke with Discover today, and they said their chargeback/dispute window is 90 days.

That's not what I have recorded on audio. I called on June 3rd and they gave me a much different answer.
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August 09, 2013, 01:52:56 AM
 #5340


Amex Policy within the States is 60 days - which is crap considering how much people rave about Amex customer service. The only card that I have found which has an unlimited dispute window is Discovercard but require documentation. However, it still remains to be seen whether their unlimited dispute promise has any teeth or not.

I just spoke with Discover today, and they said their chargeback/dispute window is 90 days.

That's not what I have recorded on audio. I called on June 3rd and they gave me a much different answer.

I think he's in the states and you're in the UK?

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