Swedish ASIC miner company kncminer.com

[DPoS]

Amex Policy within the States is 60 days - which is crap considering how much people rave about Amex customer service. The only card that I have found which has an unlimited dispute window is Discovercard but require documentation. However, it still remains to be seen whether their unlimited dispute promise has any teeth or not.

I just spoke with Discover today, and they said their chargeback/dispute window is 90 days.

great -  I am puttin my upgrade on one they just sent me with 0% intro interest

[gmaxwell]

Please keep BFL (other other unrelated vendor stuff) out of this thread.  As a reminder: the initial post in a thread sets the topic, the other posts should be related to the topic.

[CYPER]

Have a look at their official terms and conditions at their website (one had to accept before one can finalize the order).

First they strictly treat you as a business customer:

"1.2   The Products are sold for business use only and Purchaser hereby accepts that it has purchased the Products in order to conduct a business."

I specifically asked KnCMiner about this point of their terms and conditions:

Q: Hi,
I read the following clause in your terms and conditions page:

"1.2   The Products are sold for business use only and Purchaser hereby
accepts that it has purchased the Products in order to conduct a business."

What does this implies?
I don't have an EU VAT number, can I still buy your products as a private individual?

A: Hi,

Yes you can still buy our products. What it means is that we don't sell consumer goods and therefore you as a customer are expected to have made an informed decision. Ordinary consumer rights legislation does not apply to the purchase. Instead the terms and conditions regulate warranty etc.

Thanks,
Carl

So, it appears they're effectively trying to safeguard themselves against "ordinary consumer rights legislation" but I don't think that their T&C is valid if in contrast with the EU law. I'm not a lawyer but I think there is the possibility that pretending to apply business rules to consumers by means of their T&C (the contract) could be deemed as an "unfair contract term".
Obviously, since every "EU law" is actually an "EU directive", what makes a (legal) point is Sweden's implementation of the consumer rights EU directives.

By buying their products you are agreeing to the T&C and thus explicitly agreeing that you are acting as a business and thus "forfeiting" consumer rights.

This is clear in Belgian law (double checked, lawyers & all) but I'm waiting for an answer re EU law (might not be fast).

The Section 75 bit *WOULD* only apply in the UK (and I'm really not sure it would stick - CC phone operators are not exactly in charge of these things and I wouldn't be surprised if their promises/word were discarded by the first judge).

if you say you are a business, you buy business only equipment, to use for a business purpose, then you want to convince your CC company/judge you're a consumer? If it quacks like a duck...

Also, if there was to be a massive refund, it would mean bankrupcy for KNCMINER and thus no money for anyone. Alea jacta est, the only thing you can do now is wait.

Sorry, but you can't be serious that some company T&C can define if I am a business user or not. That is defined by me, not them.
They might as well write: "The Products are sold for Moon use only and Purchaser hereby accepts that it has purchased the Products in order to use them on the moon only."
If I decide to be a business I register with the tax authorities in a certain capacity (self employed person, limited company, etc)
Purchasing a product from a company online does not change my tax status or register me as a business entity

[Phoenix1969]

https://www.kncminer.com/pages/faq
Vat at added checkout where applicable, just like I said it was.
It'd also on your account page, in bold print, Mr FUKT.
BTW, what's up with the nick?

[KS]

Have a look at their official terms and conditions at their website (one had to accept before one can finalize the order).

First they strictly treat you as a business customer:

"1.2   The Products are sold for business use only and Purchaser hereby accepts that it has purchased the Products in order to conduct a business."

I specifically asked KnCMiner about this point of their terms and conditions:

Q: Hi,
I read the following clause in your terms and conditions page:

"1.2   The Products are sold for business use only and Purchaser hereby
accepts that it has purchased the Products in order to conduct a business."

What does this implies?
I don't have an EU VAT number, can I still buy your products as a private individual?

A: Hi,

Yes you can still buy our products. What it means is that we don't sell consumer goods and therefore you as a customer are expected to have made an informed decision. Ordinary consumer rights legislation does not apply to the purchase. Instead the terms and conditions regulate warranty etc.

Thanks,
Carl

So, it appears they're effectively trying to safeguard themselves against "ordinary consumer rights legislation" but I don't think that their T&C is valid if in contrast with the EU law. I'm not a lawyer but I think there is the possibility that pretending to apply business rules to consumers by means of their T&C (the contract) could be deemed as an "unfair contract term".
Obviously, since every "EU law" is actually an "EU directive", what makes a (legal) point is Sweden's implementation of the consumer rights EU directives.

By buying their products you are agreeing to the T&C and thus explicitly agreeing that you are acting as a business and thus "forfeiting" consumer rights.

This is clear in Belgian law (double checked, lawyers & all) but I'm waiting for an answer re EU law (might not be fast).

The Section 75 bit *WOULD* only apply in the UK (and I'm really not sure it would stick - CC phone operators are not exactly in charge of these things and I wouldn't be surprised if their promises/word were discarded by the first judge).

if you say you are a business, you buy business only equipment, to use for a business purpose, then you want to convince your CC company/judge you're a consumer? If it quacks like a duck...

Also, if there was to be a massive refund, it would mean bankrupcy for KNCMINER and thus no money for anyone. Alea jacta est, the only thing you can do now is wait.

Sorry, but you can't be serious that some company T&C can define if I am a business user or not. That is defined by me, not them.
They might as well write: "The Products are sold for Moon use only and Purchaser hereby accepts that it has purchased the Products in order to use them on the moon only."
If I decide to be a business I register with the tax authorities in a certain capacity (self employed person, limited company, etc)
Purchasing a product from a company online does not change my tax status or register me as a business entity

Of course I am serious.

This contract doesn't change your tax status vis à vis your Taxman, but it means you misrepresented yourself with the intent to gain access to a certain category of equipment you cannot buy as a consumer. That makes you the "bad guy" of the two and if you're trying to pull a "consumer" on them, that's also a breach of contract. Either which puts you on the wrong side of good in case of litigation.

All I'm saying is, if you feel you'll need "consumer protection",  check with a lawyer in your country. The "...but I'm really a consumer" argument doesn't stick where I am, so it's likely to fail elsewhere as well.

As far as I'm concerned, this is all a big gamble in which no one really knows what's going on so be ready to loose all your money and hedge your bets.

[XFox]

By buying their products you are agreeing to the T&C and thus explicitly agreeing that you are acting as a business and thus "forfeiting" consumer rights.

This is clear in Belgian law (double checked, lawyers & all) but I'm waiting for an answer re EU law (might not be fast).

The Section 75 bit *WOULD* only apply in the UK (and I'm really not sure it would stick - CC phone operators are not exactly in charge of these things and I wouldn't be surprised if their promises/word were discarded by the first judge).

if you say you are a business, you buy business only equipment, to use for a business purpose, then you want to convince your CC company/judge you're a consumer? If it quacks like a duck...

Also, if there was to be a massive refund, it would mean bankrupcy for KNCMINER and thus no money for anyone. Alea jacta est, the only thing you can do now is wait.

Sorry, but you can't be serious that some company T&C can define if I am a business user or not. That is defined by me, not them.
They might as well write: "The Products are sold for Moon use only and Purchaser hereby accepts that it has purchased the Products in order to use them on the moon only."
If I decide to be a business I register with the tax authorities in a certain capacity (self employed person, limited company, etc)
Purchasing a product from a company online does not change my tax status or register me as a business entity

That's exactly my opinion, too.

[XFox]

By buying their products you are agreeing to the T&C and thus explicitly agreeing that you are acting as a business and thus "forfeiting" consumer rights.

This is clear in Belgian law (double checked, lawyers & all) but I'm waiting for an answer re EU law (might not be fast).

The Section 75 bit *WOULD* only apply in the UK (and I'm really not sure it would stick - CC phone operators are not exactly in charge of these things and I wouldn't be surprised if their promises/word were discarded by the first judge).

if you say you are a business, you buy business only equipment, to use for a business purpose, then you want to convince your CC company/judge you're a consumer? If it quacks like a duck...

Also, if there was to be a massive refund, it would mean bankrupcy for KNCMINER and thus no money for anyone. Alea jacta est, the only thing you can do now is wait.

Sorry, but you can't be serious that some company T&C can define if I am a business user or not. That is defined by me, not them.
They might as well write: "The Products are sold for Moon use only and Purchaser hereby accepts that it has purchased the Products in order to use them on the moon only."
If I decide to be a business I register with the tax authorities in a certain capacity (self employed person, limited company, etc)
Purchasing a product from a company online does not change my tax status or register me as a business entity

Of course I am serious.

This contract doesn't change your tax status vis à vis your Taxman, but it means you misrepresented yourself with the intent to gain access to a certain category of equipment you cannot buy as a consumer.

It would have been so if I would have filled in a fake EU VAT number but that's not been the case, when I ordered I didn't fill in any VAT number and they took my order anyway.
If their intent is to sell to business only they should require a valid VAT number to accept orders.

As far as I'm concerned, this is all a big gamble in which no one really knows what's going on so be ready to loose all your money and hedge your bets.

That's for sure.

[CYPER]

If their intent is to sell to business only they should require a valid VAT number to accept orders.

Not a valid point as you are not required by law to register for VAT unless you are above the threshold
So you can be a business entity and have no VAT registration

[KS]

By buying their products you are agreeing to the T&C and thus explicitly agreeing that you are acting as a business and thus "forfeiting" consumer rights.

This is clear in Belgian law (double checked, lawyers & all) but I'm waiting for an answer re EU law (might not be fast).

The Section 75 bit *WOULD* only apply in the UK (and I'm really not sure it would stick - CC phone operators are not exactly in charge of these things and I wouldn't be surprised if their promises/word were discarded by the first judge).

if you say you are a business, you buy business only equipment, to use for a business purpose, then you want to convince your CC company/judge you're a consumer? If it quacks like a duck...

Also, if there was to be a massive refund, it would mean bankrupcy for KNCMINER and thus no money for anyone. Alea jacta est, the only thing you can do now is wait.

Sorry, but you can't be serious that some company T&C can define if I am a business user or not. That is defined by me, not them.
They might as well write: "The Products are sold for Moon use only and Purchaser hereby accepts that it has purchased the Products in order to use them on the moon only."
If I decide to be a business I register with the tax authorities in a certain capacity (self employed person, limited company, etc)
Purchasing a product from a company online does not change my tax status or register me as a business entity

That's exactly my opinion, too.

No one is disputing that.

[XFox]

If their intent is to sell to business only they should require a valid VAT number to accept orders.

Not a valid point as you are not required by law to register for VAT unless you are above the threshold
So you can be a business entity and have no VAT registration

I don't know if it's true here in Italy that you can be (or purchasing as) a business entity and have no VAT registration, I have to check with an accountant.

[Syke]

By buying their products you are agreeing to the T&C and thus explicitly agreeing that you are acting as a business and thus "forfeiting" consumer rights.

Wow, that's how it works? The website just needs to have the words "for business use only" and they avoid all consumer rights laws?

[Bitcoinorama]

From what I remember there was a threshold limit in local currency they could sell to per EU country when charging vat on goods. In the UK it's $70k, then they have to apply for a VAT number in that EU country, i'm this case the UK, to be able to continue charging VAT. They registered for every country since opening, so now they can sell to business or consumer *I think*. There was something along those lines mentioned, that was a while back now so email them they will straight up tell you.

[rizzman]

Amex Policy within the States is 60 days - which is crap considering how much people rave about Amex customer service. The only card that I have found which has an unlimited dispute window is Discovercard but require documentation. However, it still remains to be seen whether their unlimited dispute promise has any teeth or not.

I just spoke with Discover today, and they said their chargeback/dispute window is 90 days.

That's not what I have recorded on audio. I called on June 3rd and they gave me a much different answer.

[Bitcoinorama]

Amex Policy within the States is 60 days - which is crap considering how much people rave about Amex customer service. The only card that I have found which has an unlimited dispute window is Discovercard but require documentation. However, it still remains to be seen whether their unlimited dispute promise has any teeth or not.

I just spoke with Discover today, and they said their chargeback/dispute window is 90 days.

That's not what I have recorded on audio. I called on June 3rd and they gave me a much different answer.

I think he's in the states and you're in the UK?

[timmmers]

By buying their products you are agreeing to the T&C and thus explicitly agreeing that you are acting as a business and thus "forfeiting" consumer rights.

Wow, that's how it works? The website just needs to have the words "for business use only" and they avoid all consumer rights laws?

No it's not how it works. In fact the law says that terms and conditions need to be reasonable. You can't just add all kinds of rubbish to suit your needs.

That line made me laugh, it's total bollocks.

"Thus" ...that implies that businesses have no legal protection when they buy stuff, which would, for example, spell doom for all retailers who are businesses who buy everything they sell on to consumers who have rights that they don't?

[Ytterbium]

"Thus" ...that implies that businesses have no legal protection when they buy stuff, which would, for example, spell doom for all retailers who are businesses who buy everything they sell on to consumers who have rights that they don't?

They have enough negotiating leverage to work out specific deals with suppliers for how to deal with returns.  So for example, Walmart will be able to send back returned stuff to the manufacturer because that's the deal they work out.

Anyway, non-lawyers really shouldn't be trying to do legal analysis.  You'd need to a lawyer based in Sweeden to tell you the legality of that T&C. Speculating about it is just a waste of time really.

[dwdoc]

Difficulty now above 40,000,000.  Hope things are on fast track.

[arbitrage001]

Difficulty now above 40,000,000.  Hope things are on fast track.

Not only that, avalon next generation chip is expected to deliver in mid October. And they are not using pre-sale tactic any longer.

[plasmoske]

Yeah that's bad news for KNC pre-orderees. Difficulty is definitely going to be jumping up massively after October.

ROI should be good if it's shipped around early Sept otherwise things gonna look bad. Any delays and ROI is pretty much gone.

[FUKT]

Yeah that's bad news for KNC pre-orderees. Difficulty is definitely going to be jumping up massively after October.

ROI should be good if it's shipped around early Sept otherwise things gonna look bad. Any delays and ROI is pretty much gone.

Avalons chip problems are great news for us, a possible delay or no delivery means better ROI for KNC customers. A delay on chips is pretty much the same as if they were delivered 5 weeks ago.