[DVC]DevCoin - Official Thread - Moderated

[The Goat Master]

..
So it is already coded up and set to be released on coinzen then? just needs to be deployed? I'll have a look and see if I can do that on SMF structure otherwise or would possibly consider running that code on devcointalk instead/

No. The bounty is for someone to code it, preferably for SMF. I assumed the same person who coded it would put up coinzen, but if one person codes it and another makes the forum, the bounty would be split between them.

Is there still a bounty for a trading card game?  it would be a big undertaking, but not as big with crowdsourcing from the devcoin community.  We could make use of 3d printers too (first 3d trading cards would gain big publicity for devcoin)

possible names:
devimon, devgimon?

[worldinacoin]

..
So it is already coded up and set to be released on coinzen then? just needs to be deployed? I'll have a look and see if I can do that on SMF structure otherwise or would possibly consider running that code on devcointalk instead/

No. The bounty is for someone to code it, preferably for SMF. I assumed the same person who coded it would put up coinzen, but if one person codes it and another makes the forum, the bounty would be split between them.

Is there still a bounty for a trading card game?  it would be a big undertaking, but not as big with crowdsourcing from the devcoin community.  We could make use of 3d printers too (first 3d trading cards would gain big publicity for devcoin)

possible names:
devimon, devgimon?

Trading card will be fun, but will Pokemon take offense at our *mon? .  But if we can evolve a story line and start a TGC it will be a very profitable venture which will surely push up our coin much faster than even Bitcoin, which I feel seems to be getting stagnant after the initial reporting news.   But we have to look out for Ripple, they haven't got out of closed Beta yet and can be formidable.

[wiser]

Well maybe we should somehow/somewhere make it clearer then how much of what is already being done all aims toward eventually having all the parts in hand to be able to hopefully all together act as a massively multiplayer game or entire collection of multiplayer games all integrated one way or another so that overall they all function as parts in a larger metagame.

-MarkM-

Or a go-to place for everything that people are doing for DevCoin in general. Reading through the thread I've seen tons of things people hint at but no real information on how you can get involved, what needs to be done for each project, the status of each project, etc. I'm sure a lot of us could help out with many of these projects if we knew what was needed and what's even going on.

I don't think that would be too hard to do, actually.  One could request/require that anyone working on a project that is covered by a bounty submit periodic (weekly most likely) progress reports about what is going on.  The reports should be concise, answer some specific questions, and then get added to a project's "progress blog."  One page could contain hotlinks to all the projects and their progress blogs.  People working on projects which aren't specifically covered by a bounty could be invited to also submit progress reports (maybe have some reward for doing so?).  Projects could be sorted by category, so all the gaming stuff could be grouped together and people who know and care about it can easily access it.  When someone new starts talking about how great it would be if this project happened (and it's already being worked on) it's a simple matter to refer that person to the place where all the information on that project is posted.  I would think something like this could be set up on the Devtome, but I'm not a coder or programmer so I could be wrong about that. 

If the Devcoin "powers that be" decide to run with this idea (or some modification), then one thing I would add is that the progress reports be written so that they can be understood by a nontechnical person (think potential investor).  They should be a summary, not a detailed report, and they can link to longer reports with more technical information so that those who want to learn more very easily can. 

[markm]

Because an MMORPG would be massively expensive to create, development has pretty much inevitably always come back around to finances, and that is why we find things like the Open Transactions system coming to the foreground. In games like Freeciv the improvements players can build in their cities include markets, banks and stock exchanges. Open Transactions seems to be potentially useable for representing/simularign such things, and it touches upon finance, so  we end up with Open Transactions development going on because hopefully things like markets, banks and stock exchanges could be aspects of games in which games can intersect with finance and thus maybe find some means of financing games.

Eventually hopefully we could know within some individual character run aroud in sewers killing rats level of combat/adventure game what exactly would be involved if a player racked up enough wealth selling rat pelts to think about building a martket or a bank or a stck exchange. The much larger scale, based on Freeciv, that most players running around doing hand to hand combat with individual monsters probably tend not to care about will be covered for us by the much higher level larger scale Freeciv scale that manages an entire world at a time for us.

we would thus have built into the game an in-game "what it would take" to deploy an Open Transactions server representing a market, bank or stock exchange built in a specific game-year in a specific city on a specific planet.

So far of course all we have is the one Open Transactions server having to handle/represent all the business of all the cities of all the planets in the entire Galactic Milieu, but that again is of course due to finance/economics. How is even just that one Open Transactions server to pay for itself? Because obviously we cannot scale up to deploying one such server per each of the hundreds of cities that have a market, bank or stock exchange on each of the many planets of the Milieu if we cannot establish how such a server can finance itself. If however we can develop a business-model by which any individual server can finance itself then scaling up to tens or hundreds or thousands of servers is a lot more economically feasible, depending mostly on market depth as in how many cities' players actually choose to build a market, bank or stock exchange in their city or how many that do so choose to enable the detailed level of representation of such a city-improvement that an Open Transactions server can serve as.

So many problems end up coming down to economics/finance that I guess it should not be surprising that aspects of systems that touch upon finance keep ending up taking priority, since until finances are solved little else can be done other than by such volunteer labour as might from time top time choose to devote itself to some aspect of things.

Target audiences such as the denizens of bitcointalk forums do not even seem interested in all the MMORPG parts that many MMORPG players are looking forward to, they actually probably prefer dealing abstractly with stocks and shares and currencies without needing some "character" to walk past potential assassins or pickpockets to enter some "bank" building in order to deal with such things; they probably prefer to not have to deal with the city, the planet, the rats in the gutters and sewers, the pickpockets and muggers and bank-robbers, and just very abstractly buy and sell commodities, currencies stocks and shares on a website... Which is good, because it saves a lot of expense of providing graphic representations and personal combat systems and so on, allowing us to go direct to the financing before we even have the imagery and music and sound effects and all that stuff because all that stuff is used for aspects of the game that this target audience does not want to deal with anyway. Hopefully a win-win!

-MarkM-

[ranlo]

Because an MMORPG would be massively expensive to create, development has pretty much inevitably always come back around to finances, and that is why we find things like the Open Transactions system coming to the foreground. In games like Freeciv the improvements players can build in their cities include markets, banks and stock exchanges. Open Transactions seems to be potentially useable for representing/simularign such things, and it touches upon finance, so  we end up with Open Transactions development going on because hopefully things like markets, banks and stock exchanges could be aspects of games in which games can intersect with finance and thus maybe find some means of financing games.

Eventually hopefully we could know within some individual character run aroud in sewers killing rats level of combat/adventure game what exactly would be involved if a player racked up enough wealth selling rat pelts to think about building a martket or a bank or a stck exchange. The much larger scale, based on Freeciv, that most players running around doing hand to hand combat with individual monsters probably tend not to care about will be covered for us by the much higher level larger scale Freeciv scale that manages an entire world at a time for us.

we would thus have built into the game an in-game "what it would take" to deploy an Open Transactions server representing a market, bank or stock exchange built in a specific game-year in a specific city on a specific planet.

So far of course all we have is the one Open Transactions server having to handle/represent all the business of all the cities of all the planets in the entire Galactic Milieu, but that again is of course due to finance/economics. How is even just that one Open Transactions server to pay for itself? Because obviously we cannot scale up to deploying one such server per each of the hundreds of cities that have a market, bank or stock exchange on each of the many planets of the Milieu if we cannot establish how such a server can finance itself. If however we can develop a business-model by which any individual server can finance itself then scaling up to tens or hundreds or thousands of servers is a lot more economically feasible, depending mostly on market depth as in how many cities' players actually choose to build a market, bank or stock exchange in their city or how many that do so choose to enable the detailed level of representation of such a city-improvement that an Open Transactions server can serve as.

So many problems end up coming down to economics/finance that I guess it should not be surprising that aspects of systems that touch upon finance keep ending up taking priority, since until finances are solved little else can be done other than by such volunteer labour as might from time top time choose to devote itself to some aspect of things.

Target audiences such as the denizens of bitcointalk forums do not even seem interested in all the MMORPG parts that many MMORPG players are looking forward to, they actually probably prefer dealing abstractly with stocks and shares and currencies without needing some "character" to walk past potential assassins or pickpockets to enter some "bank" building in order to deal with such things; they probably prefer to not have to deal with the city, the planet, the rats in the gutters and sewers, the pickpockets and muggers and bank-robbers, and just very abstractly buy and sell commodities, currencies stocks and shares on a website... Which is good, because it saves a lot of expense of providing graphic representations and personal combat systems and so on, allowing us to go direct to the financing before we even have the imagery and music and sound effects and all that stuff because all that stuff is used for aspects of the game that this target audience does not want to deal with anyway. Hopefully a win-win!

-MarkM-

Most game development firms have, say 100 members. Two or three of them are programmers; the rest deal with graphics. There are TONS of free graphics we could use. And I mean tons. More than you could ever fit in a game, with thousands more released daily. Why don't other games do that? Because they are AAA titles and design their own stuff in-house. Saying the games take a long time to create is relative; a long time compared to what? RuneScape is a MMORPG created by a single person. He didn't even outsource or take free art. There are other MMO's by single people as well.

Throwing out ideas like this is a good thing. The more ideas we have, the more we can refine things.

In any case, we don't even know what people are truly working on for our goals or what their progress is/what they need to finish. I hear about things like Open Transactions and such, but never about where they are now, what is left to do, what they could use help with completing, how this is going to tie into DVC and what we can do to start preparing for it now, etc.

[Unthinkingbit]

..
Is there still a bounty for a trading card game?  it would be a big undertaking, but not as big with crowdsourcing from the devcoin community.  We could make use of 3d printers too (first 3d trading cards would gain big publicity for devcoin)

After looking at the Open Source Card Game WTactics CCG:
http://wtactics.org/

I see that it takes much longer to develop than I expected, so there won't be a direct bounty since we can't afford to pay for an entire game. However, we can pay for a limited amount of developers, so the first five people developing that game can apply to Metazilla to go on the devcoin share list and be paid that way. If there is more interest in the game and no objections, then we'll let more people go on the share list.

[markm]

Most game development firms have, say 100 members. Two or three of them are programmers; the rest deal with graphics. There are TONS of free graphics we could use. And I mean tons. More than you could ever fit in a game, with thousands more released daily. Why don't other games do that? Because they are AAA titles and design their own stuff in-house. Saying the games take a long time to create is relative; a long time compared to what? RuneScape is a MMORPG created by a single person. He didn't even outsource or take free art. There are other MMO's by single people as well.

Throwing out ideas like this is a good thing. The more ideas we have, the more we can refine things.

In any case, we don't even know what people are truly working on for our goals or what their progress is/what they need to finish. I hear about things like Open Transactions and such, but never about where they are now, what is left to do, what they could use help with completing, how this is going to tie into DVC and what we can do to start preparing for it now, etc.

OpenSimulator is largely about the graphics, basically if we keep importing into OpenSimulator any and all free graphics/models we can, we will have both a collection of useable stuff and a venue in which we can walk around them look at them set them up in context with one-another develop animations to make them perform various actions it would be useful to have them perform and so on.

Yeah there are probably lots of free graphics out there, but even just walking around them looking up and down at them turning them around and so on, together, that is, multi-user, not each alone using a modeler on their own machine, is much easer inside an actual environment like OpenSim that is made for doing that kind of thing. It seems like a reasonable venue for artists to work on such stuff and provide showcases of such stuff and group such stuff together into themes, cultures, nations, factions and so on.

That card game Unthinkingbit mentioned seems to use not only some graphics either by same artists as Battle for Wesnoth or directly from Battle for Wesnoth, but even some units from Battle for Wesnoth. It would be useful to get that stuff converted into three dimensional models too, as Battle for Wesnoth has already done a vast amount of work on game-balance of the various factions, precise adjustments to details of the scores and chances and abilities of each unit in a faction to balance faction against faction and stuff like that. Just even able to walk into a full scale Battle for Wesnoth representation in three dimansions using Open Simulator would be a big step forward. The ultimate target goal of course being holodecks, though those are quite a distance away they are kind of the star to shoot for in the sense of choosing a far away goal you might not reach but which serves as guide all along the way of however far you do get toward it.

Also very useful would be for each unit in Freeciv, have some kind of representation in Battle for Wesnoth terms. Maybe not as simple has having a Phalanx be nothing but spearmen, though maybe for early units such as phalanx that might suffice. But units such as a Legion might be an entire faction in terms of the variety of units that can be part of it.

That will help a lot toward being able to zoom in on a world whose Freeciv scale shows a legion on a certain tile, to represent it in Battle for Wesnoth scale so players could if they choose fight out a battle on that scale or run an individual-characters adventure on that scale or even just so a novelist can generate illustrations for their novel autmatically using the software...

I started somewhat on trying to do Battle for Wesnoth units suitable for representing Freeciv activities zoomed in on, for example the Wesnoth campaign that zooms in on the activities of the English and Cornish on the planet known as E29 involved creating units to represent the Cornish marines and Captain Bligh and so on. But so much more remains to be done in order to have all the units at one's fingertips to write Battle for Wesnoth adventures set on Freeciv worlds.

-MarkM-

[ranlo]

Looking at OpenSimulator, I'm liking it more and more. Do we have a project started on it already? Or is it something we're just looking at doing?

Edit: I have tons of ideas on how it could be used, :p.

[markm]

Looking at OpenSimulator, I'm liking it more and more. Do we have a project started on it already? Or is it something we're just looking at doing?

Edit: I have tons of ideas on how it could be used, :p.

I have some regions running on OSgrid. A good reason for preferring OSgrid is we are after free open source stuff, not stuff where each and every copy of a thing has to be bought from an artist or vendor. OSgrid is about Open Source so seemed the logical grid to use.

Until/unless we create a grid, but is that really needed - or even appropriate - when part of open source ought to be to try to co-operate with other open source projects?

-MarkM-

[ranlo]

Looking at OpenSimulator, I'm liking it more and more. Do we have a project started on it already? Or is it something we're just looking at doing?

Edit: I have tons of ideas on how it could be used, :p.

I have some regions running on OSgrid. A good reason for preferring OSgrid is we are after free open source stuff, not stuff where each and every copy of a thing has to be bought from an artist or vendor. OSgrid is about Open Source so seemed the logical grid to use.

Until/unless we create a grid, but is that really needed - or even appropriate - when part of open source ought to be to try to co-operate with other open source projects?

-MarkM-

Well, my idea was that using the software, due to the scripting, things like in-game casinos, other games, stores, etc. could all be brought in... but we need to know where to start and get people organized somehow to start building these things. We could have arcades and such.

[Icoin]

Looking at OpenSimulator, I'm liking it more and more. Do we have a project started on it already? Or is it something we're just looking at doing?

Edit: I have tons of ideas on how it could be used, :p.

I have some regions running on OSgrid. A good reason for preferring OSgrid is we are after free open source stuff, not stuff where each and every copy of a thing has to be bought from an artist or vendor. OSgrid is about Open Source so seemed the logical grid to use.

Until/unless we create a grid, but is that really needed - or even appropriate - when part of open source ought to be to try to co-operate with other open source projects?

-MarkM-

Well, my idea was that using the software, due to the scripting, things like in-game casinos, other games, stores, etc. could all be brought in... but we need to know where to start and get people organized somehow to start building these things. We could have arcades and such.

VGA made some nice roulette, poker and blackjack table, in SL allready, they are scripted by using LSL.

To run a region without a economy is not the hard part, and is done since years, to secure it for economic purposes is the bigger challange
Imagine each "game" that has economy needs to have a proof of work somehow, one way is by centralized control, the other is by a open and decentralized system.
Namecoin clones are ideal for this purpose and would make much sense for the scripters.
Besides that, there are Builders, Designers, Dancers, Singers and Artists needed, guys who run regions just can provide a trusted enviroment.
Our GRID will open soon with regions that are driven by now with 6 x 3ghz processors and 8GB of ram, enough power to realize yourself in a secured enviroment.

[ranlo]

Looking at OpenSimulator, I'm liking it more and more. Do we have a project started on it already? Or is it something we're just looking at doing?

Edit: I have tons of ideas on how it could be used, :p.

I have some regions running on OSgrid. A good reason for preferring OSgrid is we are after free open source stuff, not stuff where each and every copy of a thing has to be bought from an artist or vendor. OSgrid is about Open Source so seemed the logical grid to use.

Until/unless we create a grid, but is that really needed - or even appropriate - when part of open source ought to be to try to co-operate with other open source projects?

-MarkM-

Well, my idea was that using the software, due to the scripting, things like in-game casinos, other games, stores, etc. could all be brought in... but we need to know where to start and get people organized somehow to start building these things. We could have arcades and such.

VGA made some nice roulette, poker and blackjack table, in SL allready, they are scripted by using LSL.

To run a region without a economy is not the hard part, and is done since years, to secure it for economic purposes is the bigger challange
Imagine each "game" that has economy needs to have a proof of work somehow, one way is by centralized control, the other is by a open and decentralized system.
Namecoin clones are ideal for this purpose and would make much sense for the scripters.
Besides that, there are Builders, Designers, Dancers, Singers and Artists needed, guys who run regions just can provide a trusted enviroment.
Our GRID will open soon with regions that are driven by now with 6 x 3ghz processors and 8GB of ram, enough power to realize yourself in a secured enviroment.

Awesome news! I look forward to future updates, .

[Icoin]

Looking at OpenSimulator, I'm liking it more and more. Do we have a project started on it already? Or is it something we're just looking at doing?

Edit: I have tons of ideas on how it could be used, :p.

I have some regions running on OSgrid. A good reason for preferring OSgrid is we are after free open source stuff, not stuff where each and every copy of a thing has to be bought from an artist or vendor. OSgrid is about Open Source so seemed the logical grid to use.

Until/unless we create a grid, but is that really needed - or even appropriate - when part of open source ought to be to try to co-operate with other open source projects?

-MarkM-

I totaly agree that osgrid has to stay free without a kind of economy.

But you cant force artists to publish there work for free, and the missing economy in most of the actual grids is the main reason why artists from SL prefer to stay there, cause they have a kind of centralized economy. As soon there is a open decentralized  way to secure the Hypergrid this will change.
Devcoin is a aweseome concept, and you guys are the first who got generation shares for your writing work. The actual exchange rates dont reflect the real value of it, so its not realy wise to dump the coins at this moment to the market.

Everyone who has devcoins will be soon able to drive the cultural development with Devcoin in 3d Realms as generous donor. When you just dump it for bitcoin, you probably gonna miss that personal expirience.

Please honor that Devcoin drives the economic development of 3d realms allready! Its not a cooincidence that the biggest DVC Stock DVB is behind this development. Just a hint: it was a 3d reams developer that brought to you the devcoin module for drupal..

[Icoin]

Uhauuu!
Now on Vircurex for 1 BTC you need more then 2.000.000 DVC
What is it happening?
It means that all  the monthly production of DVC (about 200.000.000) is now worth less then 100 BTC.
Is DVC going to die?

Devcoin is here to stay.
The hasing difficulty is now: 3010755.66503920
If you just look at the exchange rate, its understandable that you have that impression.

I just see the awesome and generous opportunity that is provided from Unthinkingbit and the Devcoin Team to the Crypto Comunity.

We all can be gratefull for this!

[alyssa85]

Uhauuu!
Now on Vircurex for 1 BTC you need more then 2.000.000 DVC
What is it happening?
It means that all  the monthly production of DVC (about 200.000.000) is now worth less then 100 BTC.
Is DVC going to die?

People are panic dumping - they see the price fall and they sell in case it falls further. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy.

At some point investors will come in who think it is a bargain.

The price is too low given that Devcoin owns some assets - such as Devtome. The sooner it is monetised the better - that way fiat can be converted to BTC which can be converted to DVC which can be added to the distribution pool.

It would be nice if Devcoin could accrue other assets. Then we can market it as an asset backed coin.

[ranlo]

Uhauuu!
Now on Vircurex for 1 BTC you need more then 2.000.000 DVC
What is it happening?
It means that all  the monthly production of DVC (about 200.000.000) is now worth less then 100 BTC.
Is DVC going to die?

People are panic dumping - they see the price fall and they sell in case it falls further. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy.

At some point investors will come in who think it is a bargain.

The price is too low given that Devcoin owns some assets - such as Devtome. The sooner it is monetised the better - that way fiat can be converted to BTC which can be converted to DVC which can be added to the distribution pool.

It would be nice if Devcoin could accrue other assets. Then we can market it as an asset backed coin.

Yeah, this would be awesome. We need more things to back up the coin...

Also, I wish I had dumped all mine at the 70 mark into that massive buy wall. Then I would have over 55% more coins now by rebuying, .

[weisoq]

Uhauuu!
Now on Vircurex for 1 BTC you need more then 2.000.000 DVC
What is it happening?
It means that all  the monthly production of DVC (about 200.000.000) is now worth less then 100 BTC.
Is DVC going to die?

Because those who've earned them them are selling at lower and lower prices - implying that many value their efforts and those of others at a (far) lower level than that initially paid, or where they perceived that payment level to be. It's probably better this happens asap as gives a indicative clearing level of the value of e.g. writings by writers, and therefore I hope a means of re-assessing sustainable payments and shares.

[alyssa85]

Uhauuu!
Now on Vircurex for 1 BTC you need more then 2.000.000 DVC
What is it happening?
It means that all  the monthly production of DVC (about 200.000.000) is now worth less then 100 BTC.
Is DVC going to die?

People are panic dumping - they see the price fall and they sell in case it falls further. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy.

At some point investors will come in who think it is a bargain.

The price is too low given that Devcoin owns some assets - such as Devtome. The sooner it is monetised the better - that way fiat can be converted to BTC which can be converted to DVC which can be added to the distribution pool.

It would be nice if Devcoin could accrue other assets. Then we can market it as an asset backed coin.

Yeah, this would be awesome. We need more things to back up the coin...

I wish we could buy some land. You know that project that was announced in the San Diego bitcoin conference, where they were going to do a deal with Nicaragua or some such place for a free-trade zone. It would be awesome if Devcoin could accrue some offices in the zone which we could then rent out.

To finance it we can just put a freeze on payouts from say round 28 to round 108, to accrue enough coins to invest. Of course that means the dumping of coins will stop so the value would rise. We could monetise devtome at the same time, and then once an income is flowing from that and from the office rentals, we can resume distribution. It requires a collective sacrifice from the community though - not sure if the community is strong enough to bear it.

[alyssa85]

Uhauuu!
Now on Vircurex for 1 BTC you need more then 2.000.000 DVC
What is it happening?
It means that all  the monthly production of DVC (about 200.000.000) is now worth less then 100 BTC.
Is DVC going to die?

Because those who've earned them them are selling at lower and lower prices - implying that many value their efforts and those of others at a (far) lower level than that initially paid, or where they perceived that payment level to be. It's probably better this happens asap as gives a indicative clearing level of the value of e.g. writings by writers, and therefore I hope a means of re-assessing sustainable payments and shares.

That's the classic theory - in practice I think people are operating on fear and panic. They fear they'll get nothing if they wait to sell, so they sell. I've held onto all mine and sometimes I wonder if I'm a mug. Then I console myself with the thought that when fear and capitulation are greatest, that's when the market turns...

[ranlo]

Uhauuu!
Now on Vircurex for 1 BTC you need more then 2.000.000 DVC
What is it happening?
It means that all  the monthly production of DVC (about 200.000.000) is now worth less then 100 BTC.
Is DVC going to die?

Because those who've earned them them are selling at lower and lower prices - implying that many value their efforts and those of others at a (far) lower level than that initially paid, or where they perceived that payment level to be. It's probably better this happens asap as gives a indicative clearing level of the value of e.g. writings by writers, and therefore I hope a means of re-assessing sustainable payments and shares.

That's the classic theory - in practice I think people are operating on fear and panic. They fear they'll get nothing if they wait to sell, so they sell. I've held onto all mine and sometimes I wonder if I'm a mug. Then I console myself with the thought that when fear and capitulation are greatest, that's when the market turns...

I've held on to the vast majority of mine as well. Any that I did sell were at the high point of the market. Once it dropped below 82 (which was the highest I've personally seen) I pulled the orders I had up and I've been holding since.

The way I see it, the risk vs. reward of holding is much greater than doing panic selling at a fraction of the profitability. The only issue I have is that I think it may drop more from day to day before it hits the bottom... and even selling at 48 and buying at 47 when you have millions of coins boosts your holdings considerably!