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Author Topic: Merit & new rank requirements  (Read 137775 times)
VanKleiss
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January 25, 2018, 03:46:10 PM
 #781

I wish there was a way to know who sent merits to who, kinda like the blockchain.  That way, we could somehow know who's gaming the system...

I bet there are some concerned individuals in the forum having a meeting right now thru Skype...  'This is bad for business...  How can we beat Theymos' merit system with our spammer horde and make money from it?'  Cheesy

Edit:  The spammers' first attempt to game the system is to become a 'merit source'.
I believe this merit system will also be abuse like negative and positive trust. Lets be honest, you won't give a merit if you don't know the person even if their post or comments are quality. You rather give the merit to a person you know and they will give you in return with your quality post.
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Andrey123
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January 25, 2018, 03:46:18 PM
 #782

I did not really understand the meaning of this innovation.
Now Merit will burn if you do not send it to anyone?
And if you do not send it, then the next rank is not reached.

If a person is active, then he needs a forum and he is important!
And now everything turns out to be complicated and several people will dictate their terms (

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suchmoon
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January 25, 2018, 03:46:56 PM
 #783

Certain users are designated as "merit sources". They can create new merit out of nothing, up to a limited number per month (which differs per source). I will not be posting a definitive list of merit sources (so that people don't bug them too much), though you'll soon figure out who they are if you pay attention.

Oh, just great. More abuse of power. Let me guess; Lauda, The Pharmacist and actmyname.

Besides, why would anyone outside the happy few give away his merit points if he needs them himself to move up in ranking?

Quote
The forum ranking system is a bit complicated now...

That's why I opted in the other thread, and here, for principal forum moderation. Everyone can understand principles. Nobody understands patched up constructions like this.

The forum is getting crazier and crazier. I wish there was an alternative. But alas, as long as Bitcointalk has the monopoly we'll have to deal with the power abuse over here...

Sending merit to someone else does not affect your rank merit points.

Lutpin
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January 25, 2018, 03:49:26 PM
 #784

Quote
...There is no point in hoarding sMerit; keeping it yourself does not benefit you, and we reserve the right to decay unused sMerit in the future.

From any signature-camp participant perspective: not sharing points benefits me, as I make it harder for new ones to rank up and become a competition for me, making it easier to get the spot in campaign and could keep payment rates higher. It also increases the value of my account.

If someone is only concerned with sig campaigns and/or account trading then yes, there are probably ways to abuse the system. Hopefully the overall impact will reduce spam sufficiently to outweigh potential negatives but this may take a few weeks to settled down. Once the initial sMerit bonus is gone we'll start seeing how this actually works.
If you are seen to receive a lot of Merit but not send out Merit yourself, peole would stop sending Merit to you, as that equals burning them.
Eventually, you'd be stuck with those sMerit you have aquired at the beginning, while everyone is participating in rewarding posts.
Or in other words: you'd lock yoruself out from the merit system.
(This assumes the majority of the people participating behaves in a responsible way)


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Michaiah
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January 25, 2018, 03:50:50 PM
 #785

I already don't like the way clicking on +merit takes you away from the thread.  Can you please have it open in a new window?
Agree 100% with this.  A new window, or maybe just code in a little box next to the post where you can type the Merit you want to give and then hit Give or something.

I like also the idea, where you can just hit the merit option or button, it much more easier that way, getting also recommendation from others is sometime hard since their standards is high, and sometime people also get lazy that even your post has a quality or pass the quality they tend to ignore your post, just read it and turn to next page since it is pain in the ass to send and transfer you files to that folder in order to give you merit.

I'm not also complaining since this is also good way to improves everyone's post, just make it the easy way....

Thank you
llyfee4u
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January 25, 2018, 03:50:59 PM
 #786

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2439743.msg28861940#msg28861940 - 7 merit points were received for the question "How much merit points newbie need to receive, before he can post in other section?"

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2770539.msg28896442#msg28896442 - 50 merits for "Right, yesterday he told, that he saved 9% of coins"

High quality posts, huh?

I have few thoughts regarding this. First of all, this could be implemented with purpose to raise the price on the accounts with senior ranks. Admin informed us, that moderators will not moderate merits, than why do we need this? I find it quite suspicious. Secondly, it will help hero/legendary members to save their profits in the bounty campaigns. Now it will be difficult to reach senior ranks, and new rivals will rarely appear. That's my point regarding this new system. Embarrassed

Exactly, it has already begun.   50 sMerits for that post with  10 words.  I struggle to see how this will work in a fair way.   As i've said before, something had to be changed to encourage better quality posts.  I'm just not entirely sure, this has been very well thought out.  The required merits for ranking is not proportionate either.  
Even on this thread, i've seen quite a few posts which i feel deserves merits but considering that sMerits are like gold dust,  nobody is rewarding.  Essentially, legendaries now have 'GOD' status (which is ok), but it makes it practically impossible for other to rank up except people use some 'under hand' tactics to get the required merits.  This needs tweaking.  


(This assumes the majority of the people participating behaves in a responsible way)
Good point, and therein lies another issue.  No guarantee that people would behave in that way.


The new system is surely better than the previous one, even though it is over-rewarding "old members". I guess nobody who has joined Bitcointalk in the past six months will EVER manage to become Legendary Member, at least not in less than one or two decades. Fine, this could be a price to pay to avoid the forum getting even more trashy, I fully agree. But I think that the implementation of this new system could be done in a more fair way. The fact that initial merit score is equal to the minimum required for one's rank is not a big deal for Newbies or Juniors, but for higher ranked members, like Senior or Hero Members, it can create big inequalities. For example a freshly ranked Senior Member is now getting the same merit score as someone who has already been a Senior Member for almost half a year and is about to become a Hero. Even more dramatic would be the case of a Hero who has already the activity to be a Legendary but the random system did not grant him the rank yet. A more fair way to distribute the inital merit would be to calculate it proportionally to the actual activity. This would avoid that people like me (I don't want to make it personal but I'm the first example which comes to my mind) who is missing only 4 points of activity (and 5 days) to the rank of Hero Member, instead of getting, let's say 470-480 merits (instead of the 500 of people who already are Heroes), is getting only 250 merits like someone who has just ranked Senior Member 10 days ago, and instead of 5 days it may now suddenly take me years before I can become a Hero - how many very good posts has one to do before he gets 250 merits? If you receive one merit every 4 post you do (on average you are likely to get less IMO) it will take you 1000 more posts to rank up from Senior to Hero, and if you like me were only 4 points of activity from that target, and now suddenly you need another 1000 posts, to say that this is becoming extremely frustrating is a big understatement. On the other side, with a more proportional and balanced initial distribution of merits I think nobody would feel that the system is penalizing them more than it penalizes others - which means people would be more inclined to recognize its substantial fairness, or at least that every effort has been done to achieve the maximum possible fairness.

You've summed this up brillianlty well.  I want to give merit but its crazy scarce. 
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January 25, 2018, 03:51:38 PM
 #787

Certain users are designated as "merit sources". They can create new merit out of nothing, up to a limited number per month (which differs per source). I will not be posting a definitive list of merit sources (so that people don't bug them too much), though you'll soon figure out who they are if you pay attention.

Oh, just great. More abuse of power. Let me guess; Lauda, The Pharmacist and actmyname.

Besides, why would anyone outside the happy few give away his merit points if he needs them himself to move up in ranking?


Quote
The forum ranking system is a bit complicated now...

That's why I opted in the other thread, and here, for principal forum moderation. Everyone can understand principles. Nobody understands patched up constructions like this.

The forum is getting crazier and crazier. I wish there was an alternative. But alas, as long as Bitcointalk has the monopoly we'll have to deal with the power abuse over here...

Sending merit to someone else does not affect your rank merit points.

Okay, that line striped out. The rest still stands.
Raist
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January 25, 2018, 03:52:56 PM
 #788


The new system is surely better than the previous one, even though it is over-rewarding "old members". I guess nobody who has joined Bitcointalk in the past six months will EVER manage to become Legendary Member, at least not in less than one or two decades. Fine, this could be a price to pay to avoid the forum getting even more trashy, I fully agree. But I think that the implementation of this new system could be done in a more fair way. The fact that initial merit score is equal to the minimum required for one's rank is not a big deal for Newbies or Juniors, but for higher ranked members, like Senior or Hero Members, it can create big inequalities. For example a freshly ranked Senior Member is now getting the same merit score as someone who has already been a Senior Member for almost half a year and is about to become a Hero. Even more dramatic would be the case of a Hero who has already the activity to be a Legendary but the random system did not grant him the rank yet. A more fair way to distribute the inital merit would be to calculate it proportionally to the actual activity. This would avoid that people like me (I don't want to make it personal but I'm the first example which comes to my mind) who is missing only 4 points of activity (and 5 days) to the rank of Hero Member, instead of getting, let's say 470-480 merits (instead of the 500 of people who already are Heroes), is getting only 250 merits like someone who has just ranked Senior Member 10 days ago, and instead of 5 days it may now suddenly take me years before I can become a Hero - how many very good posts has one to do before he gets 250 merits? If you receive one merit every 4 post you do (on average you are likely to get less IMO) it will take you 1000 more posts to rank up from Senior to Hero, and if you like me were only 4 points of activity from that target, and now suddenly you need another 1000 posts, to say that this is becoming extremely frustrating is a big understatement. On the other side, with a more proportional and balanced initial distribution of merits I think nobody would feel that the system is penalizing them more than it penalizes others - which means people would be more inclined to recognize its substantial fairness, or at least that every effort has been done to achieve the maximum possible fairness.

I absolutely agree with you, just wanted to type nearly the same. Sending you a point of Merit. As it is implemented the system is very frustrating.
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January 25, 2018, 03:53:44 PM
 #789

If you are seen to receive a lot of Merit but not send out Merit yourself, peole would stop sending Merit to you, as that equals burning them.
Eventually, you'd be stuck with those sMerit you have aquired at the beginning, while everyone is participating in rewarding posts.
Or in other words: you'd lock yoruself out from the merit system.
(This assumes the majority of the people participating behaves in a responsible way)

You're way more optimistic than me, but for this to have a chance to work we really need to be able to see those merit logs for everyone. Maybe that was already addressed in the 20 pages of this thread that I missed.

YuTü.Co.in
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January 25, 2018, 03:54:37 PM
 #790

Will this affect people who got negative trust? I mean in a way they  having a lot of merits can give you a good image despite having negative trust from dt members. Its like a way to redeem mistake for better of for another attempt?.
Merit does not hide trust nor does it effect trust. All three of trust, activity, and merit are unrelated to each other and independent of each other. Merit is effectively a measure of post quality. Trust is a measure of trustworthiness. An untrustworthy user can create a high quality post that is worth merit.

Are you in for a shocker? Think of the most nefarious user on this forum having negative trust. Go to their thrust thingy page. Google a snippet of the most damning post making sure you wrap it in quote thingies. Reply back here with the results that Google generated for you.  Shocked Shocked Shocked

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January 25, 2018, 03:56:29 PM
Last edit: January 25, 2018, 05:10:46 PM by sarmrakib
 #791

Its a good idea to start merit system. I think it will be a good move. Most of the guys are starting make forum as for earning. Some of them are making the flood of post for farming account. I am so happy with this merit system. It will helps to make our forum as a perfect place what we are here for. Thank you

LoyceV
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January 25, 2018, 03:56:38 PM
 #792

Legendary accounts don't need or care about merit requirement because they are already at the max rank. I want to recommend on the high position right there,  What if the legendary accounts have a job or obligation to give merit to the lower ranks, 14 different accounts or user to every two weeks
Forcing people to give points doesn't help improve post quality.

Nonsense. Look at Lutpin: he went from 500 to over 1000 in less than a day. Granted, he's an exceptional individual, but it proves that the path to Legendary status is not impossible.
I'm curious to see which posts got points (Lutpin: care to share the list?). I'm mainly curious to see if it's (partially) used as a popularity contest so to speak.

Next to no one got "merit" points. and the thread already has almost 40 pages.
I received 6 and gave out 5 today, mainly for posts I had bookmarked, which means I value the content enough to read/use it again. I don't need to give away all my sMerit today, it'll be part of my normal forum use. If a post is worth it, I'll leave a merit. I wouldn't mind becoming a "source" in the future, and hand out a few merits per day.

And how we can fight with such things?

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2770539.msg28896442#msg28896442

50 merits for useless post. Multiaccounts  Cheesy
If it's his own account, he could have deleted the post to remove all (public) evidence. Isn't this similar to leaving trust for your own account?
It will eventually end when people run out of sMerits, and don't earn new ones. Short-term it can be heavily abused indeed.

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January 25, 2018, 03:56:49 PM
 #793

If nothing else, seeing people have gotten hundreds of merits in the first few hours of this rollout should make it pretty clear who is abusing multiple accounts on this forum. Smiley
I believe they already knew it. You don't need alt account to get the merit. Exchanging of merit is enough to get more merits. Why would i give my merits to people i don't know if i could give it to my friends who have quality post just like mine who can give back what i give. Its a human nature, you won't give if  you know they won't give back what you also need.
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January 25, 2018, 03:57:36 PM
 #794

I do not know, I am not able to quote anyone in this forum.
But I saw that post and profile suggested by Dvach.

Some body have merits in profile, when just replying like "Good News"  , "Available in TradeSatoshi" , or some ramdom post of current market rates.

If people are judging the people post , then how it is guaranteed it will be fair. Might I like that post but for somebody else it was commonsense.

Better system I guess, We should do not allow any member to start any thread on there wish to stop scam.
When somebody wanted to start any thread, there should some proper requirement check for them.
Moderator on that thread should able to decide, to whom merit can rewarded or not. (Second level review can also be placed for the people who get merit to ensure that there  post were worthy or not).

I do not understand how the system help when person giving merit to another person without any good fixed guideline.

every person can have different taste and different criteria.

Every person having different taste gives more chance to the members who have different posting styles. If one person has to give to all, he might not like the way of posting of a certain member.

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January 25, 2018, 03:59:23 PM
 #795

I want a Bitcointalk fork.  Angry
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January 25, 2018, 04:04:46 PM
Last edit: January 25, 2018, 04:20:14 PM by Lutpin
 #796

Nonsense. Look at Lutpin: he went from 500 to over 1000 in less than a day. Granted, he's an exceptional individual, but it proves that the path to Legendary status is not impossible.
I'm curious to see which posts got points (Lutpin: care to share the list?). I'm mainly curious to see if it's (partially) used as a popularity contest so to speak.
I had to zoom out a bit ~ https://i.snag.gy/0L9j74.jpg
If anyone wants to run numbers (not sure what you might be interested in), knock yourself out.

I'd say 70% in this thread and threads related to the new system.
And 30% in the SMAS thread which I've started/maintain.

(For comparison, I have made 123 posts the last 24 hours. I'm excited about this, I want to discuss it. Sue me. not you, quickseller. please not you.)


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January 25, 2018, 04:05:51 PM
 #797

As a long time SEO professional I see this system very much similar to PageRank, and it will have a number of benefits and pitfalls of the PageRank system.

The benefits are obvious and great, it will reduce spamming by requiring additional tasks.

Now going to the potential pitfalls -
1) Merit farming on paid sites. Some members have suggested banning/penalizing members purchasing this. The problem here however is the same as negative SEO - how do you prove someone bought it? And if people receive merit from a "paid source" and get banned for it, you could then buy paid merit for people you don't like to get them banned or penalized.

2) Reciprocal merit telegram groups. To make it less obvious there could be "merit chains" of 3 people or more.

3) Alt-chain merit giving. Once 10 alt accounts or so have enough merit, they could now use their monthly allowance to instantly pass the merit requirements on their new alt accounts. This would make identifying alts easier of course and is easily solvable by a rule that would disallow this. But since alt accounts are allowed according to the forum rules, it waits to be seen what the admins point of view will be regarding this.

Point 1) and 3) are easily solved by retroactively removing merit given from an identified corrupt merit-giving account, and also removing all sMerit capability from the corrupt account (+other penalty maybe?).

Point 2) will be very, very difficult to combat.

The overall problem here is that professional spammers will utilize their network of spammers and finances to circumvent the merit system, whereas non-professional spammers will be stopped in their tracks. This is kind of like a central power monopolizing corruption to only the most professional corrupt bodies (kind of like the extensive licensing needed for a bank or casino where only the best malicious actors can thrive: ie highly organized crime syndicates, or corruptly-networked individuals that can crash the financial system with crappy equity-baskets with AAA ratings).

At the end of the day it's very unlikely any automated system can overcome the spam. However as an overall I think the merit system is nevertheless good since at least it adds an additional barrier to overcome for spammers. I like and prefer however where trusted community members can simply give red trust to obvious spammers, thus preventing them from meeting the requirements for signature campaigns. It will be good to see both of these systems acting as deterrence against spam together.

PS: Awarding default merit to all existing members is a problem I think. There's already tonnes of farmed hero/legendary accounts that will have huge amounts of monthly sMerit.. permanently. My idea: Make this "free" initial merit expire after 1 year. That gives all members 1 year to make enough quality posts to retain their ranking.

You make complete sense.  I definitely agree. Particularly making initial "free" merits expire to level the playing field so that spammers who got in early don't get a free pass for life.
flekkelek
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January 25, 2018, 04:09:55 PM
 #798

I find it a little unfair. I mean if someone has shitloads of alt accounts, he can just deliver merits between his alts. And I was just a few weeks form hero rank, but now I'm like at the beginning of Sr. again...

Tesó, van egy kis merited? Buszjegyre kell.
Deena
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January 25, 2018, 04:11:02 PM
 #799

I want a Bitcointalk fork.  Angry
84 activities and you are still Junior Member. I know your feelings right now.

It's not even about me but about honesty and fairness. A couple of members are given the privilege to abuse other members and even get rewarded for it. And now it is decided to even expand that abusive privilege and power. This is not right for a forum with the status that Bitcointalk has in the crypto-industry. Angry
micloop
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January 25, 2018, 04:11:07 PM
 #800

I'm so upset. I was almost reaching Sr. Member rank. Now I have to get more 150 merit points. Perhaps, this method should have a kind of sortness to be implemented, wich lead those who are closer to reach new ranks to have more merit points at beginning. However, it's gone! Hope this get the forum a better place.
Let's get some merit points.
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