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Author Topic: Merit & new rank requirements  (Read 90758 times)
tbct_mt2
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January 25, 2018, 03:59:14 PM
 #801

This one for example, too. Personally, looks like low-qualitied posts. However, he/she has got 3 merits today. When time goes on, we will discover that how strange, unfair the merit system work.

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Deena
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January 25, 2018, 03:59:23 PM
 #802

I want a Bitcointalk fork.  Angry
tbct_mt2
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January 25, 2018, 04:03:39 PM
 #803

I want a Bitcointalk fork.  Angry
84 activities and you are still Junior Member. I know your feelings right now.

Lutpin
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January 25, 2018, 04:04:46 PM
 #804

Nonsense. Look at Lutpin: he went from 500 to over 1000 in less than a day. Granted, he's an exceptional individual, but it proves that the path to Legendary status is not impossible.
I'm curious to see which posts got points (Lutpin: care to share the list?). I'm mainly curious to see if it's (partially) used as a popularity contest so to speak.
I had to zoom out a bit ~ https://i.snag.gy/0L9j74.jpg
If anyone wants to run numbers (not sure what you might be interested in), knock yourself out.

I'd say 70% in this thread and threads related to the new system.
And 30% in the SMAS thread which I've started/maintain.

(For comparison, I have made 123 posts the last 24 hours. I'm excited about this, I want to discuss it. Sue me. not you, quickseller. please not you.)


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MonkeyBrain
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January 25, 2018, 04:05:51 PM
 #805

As a long time SEO professional I see this system very much similar to PageRank, and it will have a number of benefits and pitfalls of the PageRank system.

The benefits are obvious and great, it will reduce spamming by requiring additional tasks.

Now going to the potential pitfalls -
1) Merit farming on paid sites. Some members have suggested banning/penalizing members purchasing this. The problem here however is the same as negative SEO - how do you prove someone bought it? And if people receive merit from a "paid source" and get banned for it, you could then buy paid merit for people you don't like to get them banned or penalized.

2) Reciprocal merit telegram groups. To make it less obvious there could be "merit chains" of 3 people or more.

3) Alt-chain merit giving. Once 10 alt accounts or so have enough merit, they could now use their monthly allowance to instantly pass the merit requirements on their new alt accounts. This would make identifying alts easier of course and is easily solvable by a rule that would disallow this. But since alt accounts are allowed according to the forum rules, it waits to be seen what the admins point of view will be regarding this.

Point 1) and 3) are easily solved by retroactively removing merit given from an identified corrupt merit-giving account, and also removing all sMerit capability from the corrupt account (+other penalty maybe?).

Point 2) will be very, very difficult to combat.

The overall problem here is that professional spammers will utilize their network of spammers and finances to circumvent the merit system, whereas non-professional spammers will be stopped in their tracks. This is kind of like a central power monopolizing corruption to only the most professional corrupt bodies (kind of like the extensive licensing needed for a bank or casino where only the best malicious actors can thrive: ie highly organized crime syndicates, or corruptly-networked individuals that can crash the financial system with crappy equity-baskets with AAA ratings).

At the end of the day it's very unlikely any automated system can overcome the spam. However as an overall I think the merit system is nevertheless good since at least it adds an additional barrier to overcome for spammers. I like and prefer however where trusted community members can simply give red trust to obvious spammers, thus preventing them from meeting the requirements for signature campaigns. It will be good to see both of these systems acting as deterrence against spam together.

PS: Awarding default merit to all existing members is a problem I think. There's already tonnes of farmed hero/legendary accounts that will have huge amounts of monthly sMerit.. permanently. My idea: Make this "free" initial merit expire after 1 year. That gives all members 1 year to make enough quality posts to retain their ranking.

You make complete sense.  I definitely agree. Particularly making initial "free" merits expire to level the playing field so that spammers who got in early don't get a free pass for life.
flekkelek
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January 25, 2018, 04:09:55 PM
 #806

I find it a little unfair. I mean if someone has shitloads of alt accounts, he can just deliver merits between his alts. And I was just a few weeks form hero rank, but now I'm like at the beginning of Sr. again...

Tesó, van egy kis merited? Buszjegyre kell.
tbct_mt2
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January 25, 2018, 04:10:48 PM
 #807

Nonsense. Look at Lutpin: he went from 500 to over 1000 in less than a day. Granted, he's an exceptional individual, but it proves that the path to Legendary status is not impossible.
I'm curious to see which posts got points (Lutpin: care to share the list?). I'm mainly curious to see if it's (partially) used as a popularity contest so to speak.
I had to zoom out a bit ~ https://i.snag.gy/0L9j74.jpg
If anyone wants to run numbers (not sure what you might be interested in), knock yourself out.
It is a little bit crazy how merit system works, right? I will still joined the forum, so I have to follow the new rules, new requirements. However, in a word, I dont think that this one is a good one.

Smart Feature with very wide range for newbies  Cry


That one too. One merit for what?

Deena
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January 25, 2018, 04:11:02 PM
 #808

I want a Bitcointalk fork.  Angry
84 activities and you are still Junior Member. I know your feelings right now.

It's not even about me but about honesty and fairness. A couple of members are given the privilege to abuse other members and even get rewarded for it. And now it is decided to even expand that abusive privilege and power. This is not right for a forum with the status that Bitcointalk has in the crypto-industry. Angry
micloop
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January 25, 2018, 04:11:07 PM
 #809

I'm so upset. I was almost reaching Sr. Member rank. Now I have to get more 150 merit points. Perhaps, this method should have a kind of sortness to be implemented, wich lead those who are closer to reach new ranks to have more merit points at beginning. However, it's gone! Hope this get the forum a better place.
Let's get some merit points.

exus
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January 25, 2018, 04:11:40 PM
Merited by mprep (10), pawel7777 (10), theymos (5), Mitchell (5), Welsh (5), CjMapope (5), Cyrus (3), spngebob (3), Lutpin (2), dbshck (1), suchmoon (1), babo (1), Lesbian Cow (1), InvoKing (1), DarkStar_ (1), LTU_btc (1), bitart (1), Last of the V8s (1), stompix (1), Ale88 (1), djangocoin (1), Paolo.Demidov (1), facile (1)
 #810


I made this, hope it helps someone

cryptocrusher
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January 25, 2018, 04:12:36 PM
 #811

Not sure if anyone can help me out with some numbers here, but Theymos said there was currently 8175 sMerit to be distributed each month. If we look at how that compares to the previous measure in activity, a normal account would gain 30 activity per month. That would mean that we have about enough sMerit to go around to level up around 270 accounts at the same rate as we would previously. Now I don't know how many accounts we currently have but I'm going to guess it's a lot more than 270?

If we had accurate numbers could we not make the sMerit total more inline with the ranking potential previously, it would still enable people posting of a decent quality to rank up at a good rate and limit those who are shitposting from being able to rank up? Almost seems like a win-win in that scenario whereby it solves the problem without others feeling like they're now 'stuck'

Also, given that sMerit is effectively pointless after Legendary status would it not be worth considering making it only giftable to ranks below legendary, that way it at least encourages the progression for some of the lower ranks? Granted some legendary members will want to accumulate it as an accolade.

cioloxl
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January 25, 2018, 04:14:41 PM
 #812

Quote from: asapjoshyy on Today at 05:46:59 AM
yes because a great way to help the community is helping new members... but those new members have no Merit to pay your efforts for helping them out.. Which kind of defeats the purpose ?? But it works just for quality posts in general , but i think helping newer members should reward something in this system imo...
Sources monitor eg the Beginners&Help section and reward those helping out newcommers. Problem solved.

if that is being done then i agree that would work... if there is a few "merit monitors"
but man giving like 1 merit for a few good quality posts when somebody needs hundred or more is really tough....
basically anybody close to ranking up is screwed over currently which sucks and anybody who is Senior Member + can just kick back
Long term this could be a positive thing for the forum but man it sucks big time for anybody close to ranking up in the next couple weeks

I guess the system could use some fine tuning. But man oh man, am I glad to see the bots and beggars posting cancer like "nice project sir", "when moon sir" get screwed over. We REALLY needed something to address this stuff. I guess it's a little harsh as of now, but I don't mind it staying this way if we can get rid of these vermin.

djangocoin
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January 25, 2018, 04:14:52 PM
 #813

So, just to clarify if two people Merit you (sends you 2 merits), and you pay them forward and Merit two other people using half a Merits.. have you now lost 1 of your Merits? or do you just get 1 to spend and lose nothing?

Edit: just looked at the infographic and it seems you have sMerits which are sendable.

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ccsang
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January 25, 2018, 04:16:26 PM
 #814

For current members, your initial merit score is equal to the minimum required for your rank. Of that, a certain amount (less than the usual half) is spendable. The spendable amount was calculated based on your current rank and the number of activity points you earned in the last year. A Legendary member who hasn't posted in the last year would still be Legendary, but would not have any spendable merit.
I don't agree with this, this is just like giving the "old members" (including me) a head start. I'm not saying that earning merits is a race but giving us a head start also means giving us a free reputation out of nothing. That does not necessarily mean we need to rebuild our reputation from zero, I mean there are so many members that have earned a good reputation on this forum.
So I think the merit points for old members have to be given based on their reputation now and without affecting the rank.

Anyway, I think this is gonna be the end of account farming.

The new system is surely better than the previous one, even though it is over-rewarding "old members". I guess nobody who has joined Bitcointalk in the past six months will EVER manage to become Legendary Member, at least not in less than one or two decades. Fine, this could be a price to pay to avoid the forum getting even more trashy, I fully agree. But I think that the implementation of this new system could be done in a more fair way. The fact that initial merit score is equal to the minimum required for one's rank is not a big deal for Newbies or Juniors, but for higher ranked members, like Senior or Hero Members, it can create big inequalities. For example a freshly ranked Senior Member is now getting the same merit score as someone who has already been a Senior Member for almost half a year and is about to become a Hero. Even more dramatic would be the case of a Hero who has already the activity to be a Legendary but the random system did not grant him the rank yet. A more fair way to distribute the inital merit would be to calculate it proportionally to the actual activity. This would avoid that people like me (I don't want to make it personal but I'm the first example which comes to my mind) who is missing only 4 points of activity (and 5 days) to the rank of Hero Member, instead of getting, let's say 470-480 merits (instead of the 500 of people who already are Heroes), is getting only 250 merits like someone who has just ranked Senior Member 10 days ago, and instead of 5 days it may now suddenly take me years before I can become a Hero - how many very good posts has one to do before he gets 250 merits? If you receive one merit every 4 post you do (on average you are likely to get less IMO) it will take you 1000 more posts to rank up from Senior to Hero, and if you like me were only 4 points of activity from that target, and now suddenly you need another 1000 posts, to say that this is becoming extremely frustrating is a big understatement. On the other side, with a more proportional and balanced initial distribution of merits I think nobody would feel that the system is penalizing them more than it penalizes others - which means people would be more inclined to recognize its substantial fairness, or at least that every effort has been done to achieve the maximum possible fairness.

Fully agree with you! My rank of Sr.Member still young (2 months only) but for people who near of rank changes its a tragicly! Needs a corrections of initial merits!

totally agree with you , I'm waiting 4-5 month (next wednesday) rank up to Sr (just missing 2 Activity with old ranking system) , I think you waiting 8-9 month rank up to Hero member , same as you , system only give us Full member (100 merit) & Sr Member (250 merit) , don't care account activity is only (120 or 238) and (240 or 476) , merit reward is same , I think need to more fair to reward merit ...
Just example , Why don't wait for next activity date (old ranking system) , after that only start new ranking system

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stompix
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January 25, 2018, 04:17:28 PM
 #815

It's not even about me but about honesty and fairness. A couple of members are given the privilege to abuse other members and even get rewarded for it. And now it is decided to even expand that abusive privilege and power. This is not right for a forum with the status that Bitcointalk has in the crypto-industry. Angry

Oh, just great. More abuse of power. Let me guess; Lauda, The Pharmacist and actmyname.

You keep bringing up the "abuse".
How are they going to abuse you? By ignoring you? That is an abuse?

LE:
Rather than arguing, look at the post made by exus:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2818350.msg28908116#msg28908116

Proof on how even low ranking members are rewarded.

Unless exus=lutpin=lauda=thermos  Roll Eyes




tbct_mt2
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January 25, 2018, 04:18:31 PM
 #816

So, just to clarify if two people Merit you (sends you 2 merits), and you pay them forward and Merit two other people using half a Merits.. have you now lost 1 of your Merits? or do you just get 1 to spend and lose nothing?

Edit: just looked at the infographic and it seems you have sMerits which are sendable.
To clarify it, you wont lost your merits for sure. What you will lost is your sMerits (sendable Merits). When you receive Merits, your sendable Merits (sMerits) will be automatically increased, too.

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January 25, 2018, 04:19:00 PM
 #817

essentially forcing people to post, what is even considered high quality anyway? As i think i have said before, the basis of a forum is to have questions answered, i.e. i have x problem, please help, then the community kicks into gear and helps, this has always been the way when i have had tech problems, either the asker or the answerer i have been and this works.  Wouldnt the best way be as forums have always been, we have moderators who simply kick the idiots out, nice and easy!
You haven't said that before, You only have 2 posts. Or you have said that before with another account?
Merit system is good if you are not trying to rank up to join signature campaigns.

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cryptocrusher
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January 25, 2018, 04:21:54 PM
 #818

For current members, your initial merit score is equal to the minimum required for your rank. Of that, a certain amount (less than the usual half) is spendable. The spendable amount was calculated based on your current rank and the number of activity points you earned in the last year. A Legendary member who hasn't posted in the last year would still be Legendary, but would not have any spendable merit.
I don't agree with this, this is just like giving the "old members" (including me) a head start. I'm not saying that earning merits is a race but giving us a head start also means giving us a free reputation out of nothing. That does not necessarily mean we need to rebuild our reputation from zero, I mean there are so many members that have earned a good reputation on this forum.
So I think the merit points for old members have to be given based on their reputation now and without affecting the rank.

Anyway, I think this is gonna be the end of account farming.

The new system is surely better than the previous one, even though it is over-rewarding "old members". I guess nobody who has joined Bitcointalk in the past six months will EVER manage to become Legendary Member, at least not in less than one or two decades. Fine, this could be a price to pay to avoid the forum getting even more trashy, I fully agree. But I think that the implementation of this new system could be done in a more fair way. The fact that initial merit score is equal to the minimum required for one's rank is not a big deal for Newbies or Juniors, but for higher ranked members, like Senior or Hero Members, it can create big inequalities. For example a freshly ranked Senior Member is now getting the same merit score as someone who has already been a Senior Member for almost half a year and is about to become a Hero. Even more dramatic would be the case of a Hero who has already the activity to be a Legendary but the random system did not grant him the rank yet. A more fair way to distribute the inital merit would be to calculate it proportionally to the actual activity. This would avoid that people like me (I don't want to make it personal but I'm the first example which comes to my mind) who is missing only 4 points of activity (and 5 days) to the rank of Hero Member, instead of getting, let's say 470-480 merits (instead of the 500 of people who already are Heroes), is getting only 250 merits like someone who has just ranked Senior Member 10 days ago, and instead of 5 days it may now suddenly take me years before I can become a Hero - how many very good posts has one to do before he gets 250 merits? If you receive one merit every 4 post you do (on average you are likely to get less IMO) it will take you 1000 more posts to rank up from Senior to Hero, and if you like me were only 4 points of activity from that target, and now suddenly you need another 1000 posts, to say that this is becoming extremely frustrating is a big understatement. On the other side, with a more proportional and balanced initial distribution of merits I think nobody would feel that the system is penalizing them more than it penalizes others - which means people would be more inclined to recognize its substantial fairness, or at least that every effort has been done to achieve the maximum possible fairness.

Fully agree with you! My rank of Sr.Member still young (2 months only) but for people who near of rank changes its a tragicly! Needs a corrections of initial merits!

totally agree with you , I'm waiting 4-5 month (next wednesday) rank up to Sr (just missing 2 Activity with old ranking system) , I think you waiting 8-9 month rank up to Hero member , same as you , system only give us Full member (100 merit) & Sr Member (250 merit) , don't care account activity is only (120 or 238) and (240 or 476) , merit reward is same , I think need to more fair to reward merit ...
Just example , Why don't wait for next activity date (old ranking system) , after that only start new ranking system

Because next week there will be someone in the exact same position as you, who is one activity week away from a new rank. You're right in that it is not a 'fair' way to do it because someone who is just one activity period ahead of you is now a long way ahead, but your suggestion isn't the solution.

MonkeyBrain
Newbie
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Activity: 49
Merit: 0


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January 25, 2018, 04:25:30 PM
 #819

I want a Bitcointalk fork.  Angry
84 activities and you are still Junior Member. I know your feelings right now.

It's not even about me but about honesty and fairness. A couple of members are given the privilege to abuse other members and even get rewarded for it. And now it is decided to even expand that abusive privilege and power. This is not right for a forum with the status that Bitcointalk has in the crypto-industry. Angry
Not to mention if demerits are implemented what's to stop some senior member to simply demerit someone because they disagree with a post or what is being said.
suchmoon
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Activity: 1736
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January 25, 2018, 04:25:42 PM
 #820

Also, given that sMerit is effectively pointless after Legendary status would it not be worth considering making it only giftable to ranks below legendary, that way it at least encourages the progression for some of the lower ranks? Granted some legendary members will want to accumulate it as an accolade.

Legendaries can (and may be more inclined to) spread sMerit to others, so it's not pointless.

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