Devcoin

[markm]

Here is the really cool part, you can use bitcoin offline wallets for devcoin. They use the same addresses/private keys. So you can send dvc to a btc address. Then recover them with the private key of that wallet on a devcoin client later.

Attention, this function does not work properly, when you try to import a private key to devcoind from bitcoind you end up with an import error!

Could be because bitcoin now supports compressed keys by default and devcoin does not have support for them.

DeVCoin is such old code it has no import private keys function at all.

Use pywallet.py to dump private keys and create a new wallet containing those you want.

Private keys presumably do not care whether addresses are compressed or not, we are dealing with they keys not the addresses.

-MarkM-

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[twobits]

Here is the really cool part, you can use bitcoin offline wallets for devcoin. They use the same addresses/private keys. So you can send dvc to a btc address. Then recover them with the private key of that wallet on a devcoin client later.

Attention, this function does not work properly, when you try to import a private key to devcoind from bitcoind you end up with an import error!

Could be because bitcoin now supports compressed keys by default and devcoin does not have support for them.

We have a standing bounty to bring dvc to 0.8.1?

god I hope not, if that is the plan tell me know so I stop wasting my time with the code.

[weisoq]

The typical bitcoin markets really mess up the idea of using a "unit of account" because they make the purported exchange rates be kind of mythical. That vis, you might look up on MtGox the exchange rate of bitcoins as, say $100 per bitcoin, but the way that market operates you cannot really very well conclude from that that the price of a thousand one-hundred-million-dollar mansions would be one billion bitcoins.

But, that is exactly the kind of thing you have to be able to do with a "unit of account".

So basically what happens in practice is someone ships close to five million units of Deuterium to a General Mining Corp depot, the amount of GMC currency their shipment is worth is looked up on the tables for that moment in time at http://galaxies.mygamesonline.org/digitalisassets.html and then if their debt is not a debt to GMC and denominated in GMC those same tables are used to convert the GMC they earned for the shipment into whatever currency their debt is denominated, and GMC settles up, usually in some national currency or in GMC currency or even in GRF currency, with the creditor on behalf of the miner.

This would get royally mucked up though if for example GFC did suddenly start demanding actual DeVCoins instead of the equivalent value in any generally acceptable currency... But, that would kind of be a step backwards from being an actual currency useable as a unit of account, and being just some weird limited-edition commodity...

-MarkM-

Mark (or anyone else) could you explain this a little more in simple terms, terms for an idiot like me (or by all means give me a link to something)? I've had a read through devtome and this thread where but I don't understand the debt/gmc/martians references. Is it debt in dvc owed to or from devcoin developers, and in broad terms do I understand correctly that the number of dvc borrowed (owed) > those created to date and for some time to come, and that debt may be repaid in any currency? If so, obviously a matter of opinion and market forces but does this infer one big argument that the relative price of dvc (debateable whether vs usd, btc whatever) should be much higher than currently, if the net dvc number is much smaller than assumed and/or much of the future income streams are already assigned away from a tradable market place? Having some problems getting my head around it. Thanks

[markm]

Hmm its a whole universe out there so yeah that can get complicated.

General Financial Corp does most of the refinancing stuff, its thread is

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=61557.0

Various other corps also have threads:

General Development Corp: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=94785.0

General Retirement Corp: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=94788.0

General Holding Corp: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=112992.0

GRouPcorp: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=101342.0

DeVCorp: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=61407.0

-MarkM-

[emfox]

Here is the really cool part, you can use bitcoin offline wallets for devcoin. They use the same addresses/private keys. So you can send dvc to a btc address. Then recover them with the private key of that wallet on a devcoin client later.

Attention, this function does not work properly, when you try to import a private key to devcoind from bitcoind you end up with an import error!

Could be because bitcoin now supports compressed keys by default and devcoin does not have support for them.

We have a standing bounty to bring dvc to 0.8.1?

Is that? If so, I think I would have a try sometime, when I have a continuous spare time.

[FinShaggy]

Anyone wondering when DVC will rise in value, this is the thread for you:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=187757.0

[FinShaggy]

Holy SHIT!

GH/s:
7,218.3109

[markm]

There are something like 240 or 250 million DeVCoins frozen in cold wallet so that 240 or 250 million DigiDeVCoin tokens could be issued on the Digitalis Open Transactions server.

From there a large portion of them are then further buried deep into various aspects of the Galactic Milieu, so even the tokens on the Open Transactions server are not very liquid, as they represent things like the amount a chain of corner-stores could sell of its chain of stores for, or the amount that a fishing supplies company could get if it liquidated its property and equipment, stuff like that, which is usually more likely to change owners than to actually be liquidated (since you can usually get a better price selling your chain of corner stores to another corner-store operator or a supermarket company, or selling your fishing supplies business to another fishing supplies business, than you would get by simply liquidating the raw materials the business is built out of).

So it is not really expected that those 240 or 250 million coins will be moving on the blockchain any time soon.

Actually, thanks to the limited number of coins concept that bitcoin demonstrated to be such a nice idea, simply tying up coins of any and all kinds is becoming more and more of a desired feature in designing aspects of the game, since the more coins of all kinds we can as permanently as possible freeze / tie-up the more the coins actually out in the wild should tend to be worth.

So we are looking at ideas such as to build such and such  type of army unit takes so many of this coin, so many of that coin, etc; such that as long as the unit exists the coins are tied up, serving as raw materials out of which the unit is constructed.

This is basically how the generic businesses economy works too, the corner stores and so on: on the abstract level we tie up coins and you have a business that if liquidated could recover that many coins. The storylines about what kind of business it is and such are just cosmetic, in game-mechanics function it is just X number of coins (of a specific type of coin) of business-construction materials/resources.

The next step should probably be to move the type of business beyond cosmetics into picking a specific Freeciv technology to which the business relates, or a specific type of city-improvement that it is related to, or something like that. Then you'd have X number of coins tied up in forming a business of a specific technology or specific thing like temples, markets, colosseums, universities, supermarkets and so on.

-MarkM-

[FinShaggy]

There are something like 240 or 250 million DeVCoins frozen in cold wallet so that 240 or 250 million DigiDeVCoin tokens could be issued on the Digitalis Open Transactions server.

From there a large portion of them are then further buried deep into various aspects of the Galactic Milieu, so even the tokens on the Open Transactions server are not very liquid, as they represent things like the amount a chain of corner-stores could sell of its chain of stores for, or the amount that a fishing supplies company could get if it liquidated its property and equipment, stuff like that, which is usually more likely to change owners than to actually be liquidated (since you can usually get a better price selling your chain of corner stores to another corner-store operator or a supermarket company, or selling your fishing supplies business to another fishing supplies business, than you would get by simply liquidating the raw materials the business is built out of).

So it is not really expected that those 240 or 250 million coins will be moving on the blockchain any time soon.

Actually, thanks to the limited number of coins concept that bitcoin demonstrated to be such a nice idea, simply tying up coins of any and all kinds is becoming more and more of a desired feature in designing aspects of the game, since the more coins of all kinds we can as permanently as possible freeze / tie-up the more the coins actually out in the wild should tend to be worth.

So we are looking at ideas such as to build such and such  type of army unit takes so many of this coin, so many of that coin, etc; such that as long as the unit exists the coins are tied up, serving as raw materials out of which the unit is constructed.

This is basically how the generic businesses economy works too, the corner stores and so on: on the abstract level we tie up coins and you have a business that if liquidated could recover that many coins. The storylines about what kind of business it is and such are just cosmetic, in game-mechanics function it is just X number of coins (of a specific type of coin) of business-construction materials/resources.

-MarkM-

Yes, hording does make the market value of an item rise, BUT selling can have the same effect. If you had 250 MILLION coins, and you sold them at 50% market value, the value of Devcoin would fall, and people would horde. But then if you offered to buy 10 million coins back, at 2X the old market value, you still have a lot of money, and the price of the coin will rise exceptionally, possibly even past your purchases effects.

[FinShaggy]

And pure advertisement, and giving people a reason to want Devcoins. Those things together are all it needs to thrive.

[FinShaggy]

And when I saw the Galactic Meleui I thought it was part of some video game. Is that the network of businesses supporting Devcoin?

[markm]

Hmm. Manipulation is risky.

We do have a kind of early adopter effect though, currently only in terms of which coin's economy you operate in but later probably more details, like "The Archery Technology sector of the Ixcoin economy" or "The Mechanical Infantry sector of the Bitcoin economy" or "The Fusion Power sector of the Martian BotCoin economy" and such. Basically the first people into an economy tend to gain from the influx of more people coming into it. The first advertising agency in the Devcoin economy gaining somewhat from the legitimacy or value of the advertising sector of that economy by the flood of new businesses entering that sector (the advertising sector), some of the potential customers of the new entrants into a sector/economy going to the older businesses already operating in that sector because they have heard the old one's name as part of the culture all their lives, the suppliers serving the sector tooling up to handle the new businesses needs get more efficient so their old customers benefit from the new more-efficient supply chains and so on and so on and so on.

Basically when you dump X coins into a sector, you end up with something whose liquidation value is less than what you just dumped in, because the gear/materials you bought with the coins you dumped in are instantly second-hand materials; but, as more coins get dumped in, by you or by others, the coins already put in start to realise some returns and such, so the existing capital tends to get helped in its appreciation by the dumping in of new capital.

(Yes, business is a pyramid scheme! Take teaching: we'll build a college, teach tons of people a trade, employ only some of them because some of what the students pay for training is needed to pay teachers so isn't available to pay all the current graduating class to employ all of them as teachers too... )

-MarkM-

[FinShaggy]

Ok, so I read this http://www.devtome.com/doku.php?id=battle_for_wesnoth
And what I got from it is, that the people who play that game are re-enacting life and battles from the past. And eventually their goal is to become something like the UN, where in the future they aren't just re-enacting, but being a form of "council" in current events.

[FinShaggy]

Hmm. Manipulation is risky.

We do have a kind of early adopter effect though, currently only in terms of which coin's economy you operate in but later probably more details, like "The Archery Technology sector of the Ixcoin economy" or "The Mechanical Infantry sector of the Bitcoin economy" or "The Fusion Power sector of the Martian BotCoin economy" and such. Basically the first people into an economy tend to gain from the influx of more people coming into it. The first advertising agency in the Devcoin economy gaining somewhat from the legitimacy or value of the advertising sector of that economy by the flood of new businesses entering that sector (the advertising sector), some of the potential customers of the new entrants into a sector/economy going to the older businesses already operating in that sector because they have heard the old one's name as part of the culture all their lives, the suppliers serving the sector tooling up to handle the new businesses needs get more efficient so their old customers benefit from the new more-efficient supply chains and so on and so on and so on.

Basically when you dump X coins into a sector, you end up with something whose liquidation value is less than what you just dumped in, because the gear/materials you bought with the coins you dumped in are instantly second-hand materials; but, as more coins get dumped in, by you or by others, the coins already put in start to realise some returns and such, so the existing capital tends to get helped in its appreciation by the dumping in of new capital.

(Yes, business is a pyramid scheme! Take teaching: we'll build a college, teach tons of people a trade, employ only some of them because some of what the students pay for training is needed to pay teachers so isn't available to pay all the current graduating class to employ all of them as teachers too... )

-MarkM-

Well, if someone could help me better understand this, I would like to be involved in the advertising and would like to know what the different sectors need in terms of advertising.

But my plan is to create a TRUE demand for Devcoin, I have a front and back sheet of paper with ideas, including but not limited to:

Let everyone know they can support musicians, writers, artists, etc with less than 1 penny, by buying devcoins
Let everyone know that they can pay people online for services like: webpage creation, banner design, logo design, etc with devcoins
Start a Devcoin Lottery
Start a Devcoin faucet
Give away free coins to random people
Announce ALL devcoin price changes
And MUCH MUCH more

[markm]

Ok, so I read this http://www.devtome.com/doku.php?id=battle_for_wesnoth
And what I got from it is, that the people who play that game are re-enacting life and battles from the past. And eventually their goal is to become something like the UN, where in the future they aren't just re-enacting, but being a form of "council" in current events.

No, Battle for Wesnoth, the actual software itself, is a historical re-enactment kind of game, in that you either succeed in enacting the pre-designed plot or you lose the game. Thus you play it again over and over until you succeed in playing out the actual historical events the scenario or campaign designers designed into it.

That whole free open source game, in single-player mode, consists of fun snippets of history you re-enact, trying to achieve the glorious victories that are already part of history.

Essentially it is a computer-aided-instruction program that has combat battle systems built into it as a great motivational tool to help keep the students interested in the history it is teaching.

Thus, that particular software is not much use for figuring out what WILL happen; its main use is in teaching what DID happen.

In theory its multi-player modes should someday get to a point where they could be useful in deciding what DOES happen, but we are not there yet.

Instead, we use Freeciv to determine what does happen in any particular year of history, on the broad outline whole-planet scale, which then serves as a backdrop against which individual adventurers can run around killing rats in sewers or whatever it is that they like to do. (The hack and slash players who don't care about nations and politics and so on except as excuses to hack something or slash something.)

In theory too though, once we identify specific actions on the Freeciv scale that could turn the tide of galactic history, we have a Temporal Nexus, where if by some means someone could cause a different outcome of a specific unit's battle against another specific unit, a whole different timeline would result. We thus keep a savegame of every gameturn of Freeciv throughout history, in case we ever do find time travellers manage to cause a change. They'd do it by going back to a specific savegame and branching off from it.

The Institute of Chronodynamics is actively researching such things, although according to the B.B.C. Doctor Who is purely fictional and does not actually change the timelines... Or at least not using current technology...

(Chronodynamics is one of the technologies added to Freeciv by the Galactic Ruleset used by the Galactic Milieu.)

-MarkM-

[FinShaggy]

Ok, so I read this http://www.devtome.com/doku.php?id=battle_for_wesnoth
And what I got from it is, that the people who play that game are re-enacting life and battles from the past. And eventually their goal is to become something like the UN, where in the future they aren't just re-enacting, but being a form of "council" in current events.

No, Battle for Wesnoth, the actual software itself, is a historical re-enactment kind of game, in that you either succeed in enacting the pre-designed plot or you lose the game. Thus you play it again over and over until you succeed in playing out the actual historical events the scenario or campaign designers designed into it.

That whole free open source game, in single-player mode, consists of fun snippets of history you re-enact, trying to achieve the glorious victories that are already part of history.

Essentially it is a computer-aided-instruction program that has combat battle systems built into it as a great motivational tool to help keep the students interested in the history it is teaching.

Thus, that particular software is not much use for figuring out what WILL happen; its main use is in teaching what DID happen.

In theory its multi-player modes should someday get to a point where they could be useful in deciding what DOES happen, but we are not there yet.

Instead, we use Freeciv to determine what does happen in any particular year of history, on the broad outline whole-planet scale, which then serves as a backdrop against which individual adventurers can run around killing rats in sewers or whatever it is that they like to do. (The hack and slash players who don't care about nations and politics and so on except as excuses to hack something or slash something.)

In theory too though, once we identify specific actions on the Freeciv scale that could turn the tide of galactic history, we have a Temporal Nexus, where if by some means someone could cause a different outcome of a specific unit's battle against another specific unit, a whole different timeline would result.

The Institute of Chronodynamics is actively researching such things, although according to the B.B.C. Doctor Who is purely fictional and does not actually change the timelines... Or at least not using current technology...

(Chronodynamics is one of the technologies added to Freeciv by the Galactic Ruleset used by the Galactic Milieu.)

-MarkM-

So it's like a D & D world, but you actually see it on the computer?

[markm]

We use different free open source software tools to see different parts of it.

For running a nation on a planet, Freeciv is a more useful tool than, say, a 3d environment such as OpenSimulator.

For showing us on our current computers the general gist of various holonovels and holodocumentaries and other educational holobarracks programs, Battle for Wesnoth, being a kind of plotline storyboard tool, is useful; we can maybe get people started on the plot-outlining aspects of holobarracks programming even before we develop actual holobarracks. And so on.

You can actually learn a lot about the game by playing out the Time Cadet thread of the Between the Worlds portmanteau of Wesnoth campaigns, as it walks you through some of the training of a Time Cadet.

We use existing free open source stuff as much as possible, ideally without needing to change it at all but if change is needed then using "minimum necessary change" philosophy. (Minimum Necessary Change is in fact a term from Asimov's novel "The End of Eternity" in which people do go back in time and make the minimum change necessary to cause the desired change in the timeline.)

-MarkM-

[FinShaggy]

We use different free open source software tools to see different parts of it.

For running a nation on a planet, Freeciv is a more useful tool than, say, a 3d environment such as OpenSimulator.

For showing us on our current computers the general gist of various holonovels and holodocumentaries and other educational holobarracks programs, Battle for Wesnoth, being a kind of plotline storyboard tool, is useful; we can maybe get people started on the plot-outlining aspects of holobarrfacks programming even before we develop actual holobarracks. And so on.

We use existing free open source stuff as much as possible, ideally without needing to change it at all but if change is needed then using "minimum necessary change" philosophy. (Minimum Necessary Change is in fact a term from Asimov's novel "The End of Eternity" in which people do go back in time and make the minimum change necessary to cause the desired change in the timeline.)

-MarkM-

So basically you need game developers that can make scenarios? And people to play the game from different perspectives and running different soft wares?

[markm]

So basically you need game developers that can make scenarios? And people to play the game from different perspectives and running different soft wares?

I guess it would be nice of some other people wrote some Wesnoth campaigns depicting events in the game yeah; so far I wrote all the Wesnoth scenarios / campaigns etc that we have so far.

However we also need more nations to get played, since it is not really fair to just turn on the automation to play most nations of a planet on automatic (which is lousy player compared to real human players).

Some (most maybe) of the Wesnoth campaigns we cannot continue yet because we still do not know what happens / happened the next Freeciv gameturn because we do not have players yet for all of the nations involved.

It is precisely at such important nexuses (nexi?) of history that actual players can make the most difference, so those timelines are on the back burner for now while we get our economics worked out, as in how we are going to pay for all the hardware and bandwidth (especially if we do not have lots of players paying lots of money out of which lots of hardware and bandwidth can easily be afforded).

Basically it sounds good to be the only played nation on a planet, up against just a bunch of crappy artificial-intelligence opponents, until you face having to pay the hosting etc etc bills for the whole planet for all of history all by yourself! Haha! Suddenly the idea of having a bunch more players to help pay for your planet gets appealing!

-MarkM-

[FinShaggy]

So basically you need game developers that can make scenarios? And people to play the game from different perspectives and running different soft wares?

I guess it would be nice of some other people wrote some Wesnoth campaigns depicting events in the game yeah; so far I wrote all the Wesnoth scenarios / campaigns etc that we have so far.

However we also need more nations to get played, since it is not really fair to just turn on the automation to play most nations of a planet on automatic (which is lousy player compared to real human players).

Some (most maybe) of the Wesnoth campaigns we cannot continue yet because we still do not know what happens / happened the next Freeciv gameturn because we do not have players yet for all of the nations involved.

It is precisely at such important nexuses (nexi?) of history that actual players can make the most difference, so those timelines are on the back burner for now while we get our economics worked out, as in how we are going to pay for all the hardware and bandwidth (especially if we do not have lots of players paying lots of money out of which lots of hardware and bandwidth can easily be afforded.)

Basically it sounds good to be the only played nation on a planet, up against just a bunch of crappy artificial-intelligence opponents, until you face having to pay the hosting etc etc bills for the whole planet for all of history all by yourself! Haha! Suddenly the idea of having a bunch more players to help pay for your planet gets appealing!

-MarkM-

Well, I can help with both. What goes into building a scenario, programming? Or is it all written?
And is it a visual game, or is it all words?
I like D'ydii. How does all of this work, I might stat playing when I get a better computer, which I hope to do through Devtome. Right now I have a laptop that can't even handle it's own built in webcam.