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Author Topic: [CLOSED] BTC Guild - Pays TxFees+NMC, Stratum, VarDiff, Private Servers  (Read 899072 times)
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organofcorti
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February 17, 2014, 11:27:48 PM
 #6061

Eleuthria I have a question for you. I see you paid out on block # 286386 and 286401 today, but the blocks ended up with some other pool. So did you just lose 50 coins and what you paid out on PPS?
I think this is going to be answer by something like, never trust block chain. They're notoriously bad for mis representing solved blocks.

Or something like "BTC Guild pays for orphaned blocks, so if any orphan races were lost the block rewards come out of eleuthria's pocket".


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February 17, 2014, 11:32:19 PM
 #6062

Eleuthria I have a question for you. I see you paid out on block # 286386 and 286401 today, but the blocks ended up with some other pool. So did you just lose 50 coins and what you paid out on PPS?
I think this is going to be answer by something like, never trust block chain. They're notoriously bad for mis representing solved blocks.

Or something like "BTC Guild pays for orphaned blocks, so if any orphaned races were lost the block rewards come out of eleuthria's pocket".



This would be the correct response.  Both of those blocks ended up being orphaned...which makes me suspicious as hell.  GHash.io has been orphaning a LOT of blocks lately by releasing 2-3 blocks on top of each other.  In both of those orphans, blockchain.info saw our block before GHash.io by a decent margin (12 seconds on the first one).  That's not the block timestamp difference, it's *when* the block was seen (Received Time).


3 orphans in the last 24 hours, all either with a competing ghash.io block (or "unknown/IP relayer"), and all 3 of them ended up having Ghash.io be the one that confirmed the fork against BTC Guild.  All 3 of them were seen by many other nodes on the network as BTC Guild being the first block at that height.

RIP BTC Guild, April 2011 - June 2015
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February 17, 2014, 11:35:13 PM
 #6063

2 questions about reporting:

1.  Where can you go to find all of your payouts per block?

2.  Does the pps setting, show a breakdown by day or is it just accumulative?  


     
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eleuthria
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February 17, 2014, 11:36:26 PM
 #6064

2 questions about reporting:

1.  Where can you go to find all of your payouts per block?

2.  Does the pps setting, show a breakdown by day or is it just accumulative?  

1)  PPLNS doesn't do "payouts per block", it does payouts per shift.  There's significant details available for every shift if you click on the 'Details' link under PPLNS Stats.  The dashboard has an approximation since users tend to associate payouts with blocks, but that is not the source of your payout, the shifts are.

2)  PPS is cumulative per difficulty.

RIP BTC Guild, April 2011 - June 2015
Darthswan
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February 17, 2014, 11:39:48 PM
 #6065

2 questions about reporting:

1.  Where can you go to find all of your payouts per block?

2.  Does the pps setting, show a breakdown by day or is it just accumulative?  

1)  PPLNS doesn't do "payouts per block", it does payouts per shift.  There's significant details available for every shift if you click on the 'Details' link under PPLNS Stats.  The dashboard has an approximation since users tend to associate payouts with blocks, but that is not the source of your payout, the shifts are.

2)  PPS is cumulative per difficulty.

Thank you.  I was trying to do it from a reporting purpose.  So what is the difference between my block reward and shift reward?


     
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mdude77
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February 17, 2014, 11:40:40 PM
 #6066

Eleuthria I have a question for you. I see you paid out on block # 286386 and 286401 today, but the blocks ended up with some other pool. So did you just lose 50 coins and what you paid out on PPS?
I think this is going to be answer by something like, never trust block chain. They're notoriously bad for mis representing solved blocks.

Or something like "BTC Guild pays for orphaned blocks, so if any orphaned races were lost the block rewards come out of eleuthria's pocket".



This would be the correct response.  Both of those blocks ended up being orphaned...which makes me suspicious as hell.  GHash.io has been orphaning a LOT of blocks lately by releasing 2-3 blocks on top of each other.  In both of those orphans, blockchain.info saw our block before GHash.io by a decent margin (12 seconds on the first one).  That's not the block timestamp difference, it's *when* the block was seen (Received Time).


3 orphans in the last 24 hours, all either with a competing ghash.io block (or "unknown/IP relayer"), and all 3 of them ended up having Ghash.io be the one that confirmed the fork against BTC Guild.  All 3 of them were seen by many other nodes on the network as BTC Guild being the first block at that height.

I don't see how this could be purposely done?  Unless you purposely have your pool set to build blocks on a block you haven't released yet.  That'd be kinda tricky, but I guess with enough hashpower you could do it.

M

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February 17, 2014, 11:44:58 PM
 #6067

Eleuthria I have a question for you. I see you paid out on block # 286386 and 286401 today, but the blocks ended up with some other pool. So did you just lose 50 coins and what you paid out on PPS?
I think this is going to be answer by something like, never trust block chain. They're notoriously bad for mis representing solved blocks.

Or something like "BTC Guild pays for orphaned blocks, so if any orphaned races were lost the block rewards come out of eleuthria's pocket".



This would be the correct response.  Both of those blocks ended up being orphaned...which makes me suspicious as hell.  GHash.io has been orphaning a LOT of blocks lately by releasing 2-3 blocks on top of each other.  In both of those orphans, blockchain.info saw our block before GHash.io by a decent margin (12 seconds on the first one).  That's not the block timestamp difference, it's *when* the block was seen (Received Time).


3 orphans in the last 24 hours, all either with a competing ghash.io block (or "unknown/IP relayer"), and all 3 of them ended up having Ghash.io be the one that confirmed the fork against BTC Guild.  All 3 of them were seen by many other nodes on the network as BTC Guild being the first block at that height.

I don't see how this could be purposely done?  Unless you purposely have your pool set to build blocks on a block you haven't released yet.  That'd be kinda tricky, but I guess with enough hashpower you could do it.

M


I'm suspicious because it is *exactly* what it would look like if somebody was engaged in selfish mining.

RIP BTC Guild, April 2011 - June 2015
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February 17, 2014, 11:46:21 PM
 #6068

I'm suspicious because it is *exactly* what it would look like if somebody was engaged in selfish mining.
So other than Ghash owning up, what can be done if anything ?

 
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eleuthria
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February 17, 2014, 11:54:44 PM
 #6069

I'm suspicious because it is *exactly* what it would look like if somebody was engaged in selfish mining.
So other than Ghash owning up, what can be done if anything ?

Not a whole lot, other than what I've contemplated doing for months:  Dropping paid orphans and dropping the fee 1% to compensate.  It ends up being roughly the same, except it doesn't involve me having a random 24 hour period where I pay out $50,000 worth of BTC for blocks that were orphaned.


For now I can just keep watching to see if this pops up again.  It's suspicious, but the unfortunate thing is selfish mining is hard to detect with certainty, and 3 events in 24 hours, while highly unusual, is NOT enough evidence to base a reaction off of.

RIP BTC Guild, April 2011 - June 2015
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February 17, 2014, 11:59:07 PM
 #6070

I'm suspicious because it is *exactly* what it would look like if somebody was engaged in selfish mining.
So other than Ghash owning up, what can be done if anything ?

Not a whole lot, other than what I've contemplated doing for months:  Dropping paid orphans and dropping the fee 1% to compensate.  It ends up being roughly the same, except it doesn't involve me having a random 24 hour period where I pay out $50,000 worth of BTC for blocks that were orphaned.

Sounds like a good choice to me. 

M

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February 18, 2014, 12:01:32 AM
 #6071

Well, I'm fucked, PSU went bad on the Avalon and now I gotta wait for a new one and I had good earnings ;-(

Not really related to BTC GUILD but just go out and buy a new PSU.


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organofcorti
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February 18, 2014, 12:06:28 AM
 #6072

I'm suspicious because it is *exactly* what it would look like if somebody was engaged in selfish mining.
So other than Ghash owning up, what can be done if anything ?

Not a whole lot, other than what I've contemplated doing for months:  Dropping paid orphans and dropping the fee 1% to compensate.  It ends up being roughly the same, except it doesn't involve me having a random 24 hour period where I pay out $50,000 worth of BTC for blocks that were orphaned.


For now I can just keep watching to see if this pops up again.  It's suspicious, but the unfortunate thing is selfish mining is hard to detect with certainty, and 3 events in 24 hours, while highly unusual, is NOT enough evidence to base a reaction off of.

Interestingly, although GHash.IO has previously had a consistent 2 - 3% orphan rate for the last 3500 blocks, over the last 500 blocks they've lost no orphan races at all. I thought there was something wrong with my data, one reason why I've been putting off posting the weekly stats.


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February 18, 2014, 12:09:30 AM
 #6073

I'm suspicious because it is *exactly* what it would look like if somebody was engaged in selfish mining.
So other than Ghash owning up, what can be done if anything ?

Not a whole lot, other than what I've contemplated doing for months:  Dropping paid orphans and dropping the fee 1% to compensate.  It ends up being roughly the same, except it doesn't involve me having a random 24 hour period where I pay out $50,000 worth of BTC for blocks that were orphaned.


For now I can just keep watching to see if this pops up again.  It's suspicious, but the unfortunate thing is selfish mining is hard to detect with certainty, and 3 events in 24 hours, while highly unusual, is NOT enough evidence to base a reaction off of.
This is what I was wondering how long you can take a hit like this and not do something about it. When I was mining on Slush it seemed we had our fair share of blocks orphaned by Ghash also but then it stopped. I was kind of wondering if they do this to a pool for a few blocks then they move on to another pool if this is possible? I thought it was explained once to me it may have to do where they are located compared to another pools data center as to how they can beat someone to claiming it first?
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February 18, 2014, 12:10:21 AM
 #6074

Interestingly, although GHash.IO has previously had a consistent 2 - 3% orphan rate for the last 3500 blocks, over the last 500 blocks they've lost no orphan races at all. I thought there was something wrong with my data, one reason why I've been putting off posting the weekly stats.

At least based on blockchain.info's information, there haven't *been* very many orphans lately, at least until the last 24 hours or so.

RIP BTC Guild, April 2011 - June 2015
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February 18, 2014, 12:54:46 AM
 #6075

I'm suspicious because it is *exactly* what it would look like if somebody was engaged in selfish mining.
So other than Ghash owning up, what can be done if anything ?

Not a whole lot, other than what I've contemplated doing for months:  Dropping paid orphans and dropping the fee 1% to compensate.  It ends up being roughly the same, except it doesn't involve me having a random 24 hour period where I pay out $50,000 worth of BTC for blocks that were orphaned.


For now I can just keep watching to see if this pops up again.  It's suspicious, but the unfortunate thing is selfish mining is hard to detect with certainty, and 3 events in 24 hours, while highly unusual, is NOT enough evidence to base a reaction off of.

I would actually prefer a 1% pool fee and no paid orphans, and it would give the impression that BtcGuild lowered pool fees even if miners ended up receiving the exact same return.

I suspect that BtcGuild would gain a significant amount of hashrate by dropping fees to 1% and not paying out orphans.

I think many people perceive that BtcGuild is more expensive than it actually is because they are not aware of how orphans impact payouts.
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February 18, 2014, 12:58:19 AM
 #6076

Meh, well you still have PPS, which is a known loss risk to both the pool, and the other miners using non-PPS

So how about fixing that first before complaining about another pool ...

Pool: https://kano.is Here on Bitcointalk: Forum BTC: 1KanoPb8cKYqNrswjaA8cRDk4FAS9eDMLU
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February 18, 2014, 04:19:14 AM
 #6077

I'm suspicious because it is *exactly* what it would look like if somebody was engaged in selfish mining.
So other than Ghash owning up, what can be done if anything ?

Not a whole lot, other than what I've contemplated doing for months:  Dropping paid orphans and dropping the fee 1% to compensate.  It ends up being roughly the same, except it doesn't involve me having a random 24 hour period where I pay out $50,000 worth of BTC for blocks that were orphaned.


For now I can just keep watching to see if this pops up again.  It's suspicious, but the unfortunate thing is selfish mining is hard to detect with certainty, and 3 events in 24 hours, while highly unusual, is NOT enough evidence to base a reaction off of.

I would actually prefer a 1% pool fee and no paid orphans, and it would give the impression that BtcGuild lowered pool fees even if miners ended up receiving the exact same return.

I suspect that BtcGuild would gain a significant amount of hashrate by dropping fees to 1% and not paying out orphans.

I think many people perceive that BtcGuild is more expensive than it actually is because they are not aware of how orphans impact payouts.

He said "by" 1%, not "to" 1%.
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February 18, 2014, 05:07:58 AM
 #6078

I'm suspicious because it is *exactly* what it would look like if somebody was engaged in selfish mining.
So other than Ghash owning up, what can be done if anything ?

Not a whole lot, other than what I've contemplated doing for months:  Dropping paid orphans and dropping the fee 1% to compensate.  It ends up being roughly the same, except it doesn't involve me having a random 24 hour period where I pay out $50,000 worth of BTC for blocks that were orphaned.


For now I can just keep watching to see if this pops up again.  It's suspicious, but the unfortunate thing is selfish mining is hard to detect with certainty, and 3 events in 24 hours, while highly unusual, is NOT enough evidence to base a reaction off of.

I would actually prefer a 1% pool fee and no paid orphans, and it would give the impression that BtcGuild lowered pool fees even if miners ended up receiving the exact same return.

I suspect that BtcGuild would gain a significant amount of hashrate by dropping fees to 1% and not paying out orphans.

I think many people perceive that BtcGuild is more expensive than it actually is because they are not aware of how orphans impact payouts.

He said "by" 1%, not "to" 1%.
Just my 2 cents, but if orphan pay is gotten rid of I would prefer a 1% pool fee or at the very least a compromise of 1.5%.

 
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February 18, 2014, 05:11:06 AM
 #6079

Is there a way to calulate what I might earn per day if I swiched to PPS vs all my workers currently bein on PPLNS ?

This is what my curren 24hr stats are: 0.03164792

Luck aside take was you make now and subtract 5% from that number, that should do it..

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February 18, 2014, 06:06:58 AM
 #6080

Is there a way to calulate what I might earn per day if I swiched to PPS vs all my workers currently bein on PPLNS ?

This is what my curren 24hr stats are: 0.03164792

Download the PPLNS payout spreadsheet, sum up 1 days worth of shares and multiply it by the PPS rate on the top right of the website.


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