Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.

[rocks]

who says i have any bitcoin?  i just believe in the cause of fair money.

Be careful with this, remember the Feds took down the mob by proving tax evasion, not actual crimes.

If the US government (with all of the data collected by NSA, etc) is able to prove that at one point you acquired a certain number of coins then it is easy for them to force to you admit to one of the following, either:
1) You sold the coins, in which case you better have reported that past sale to the IRS and paid taxes, or
2) You still control the coins
Anonymizing your coins doesn't help, either you sold them or you have them.

A windfall profits tax can easily be enabled by creating a tax event. For example let's say the government decides to eventually recognize bitcoin as money and no longer property, that event could be interpreted as a tax event forcing taxes on all unrealized gains from converting "property" into money. This isn't far fetched, EVERYTHING is interpreted/justified through the tax code today.

I think it's wise to either:
1) Be like Satoshi and ensure you are 100% hidden, or
2) Be completely transparent and honest with the government in your bitcoin dealings, including public posts, because it all will be used against you. I am following 2. It's a free bitcoin world so feel free to do what makes sense for you.

[Syke]

If Bitcoin grows large, exactly how will governments tax the 'windfall'?

The same way they tax the cash market. Lots of small businesses run on mainly untraceable cash, yet they still pay their taxes. Fear of penalties, jailtime, etc.

[railzand]

If it grows large, the early adopters (with any money left) will be the governments.

[cypherdoc]

Be careful with this, remember the Feds took down the mob by proving tax evasion, not actual crimes.

you also need to be careful in posting ridiculous amounts of bitcoin attributable to certain individuals.

[rocks]

Be careful with this, remember the Feds took down the mob by proving tax evasion, not actual crimes.

you also need to be careful in posting ridiculous amounts of bitcoin attributable to certain individuals.

My hypothetical example above was just that, a hypothetical example to outline how a future argument might be drawn in the public sphere. Not sure where there is a reaction there. I was replying to you in discussion and so used you as an example, that is common, there is nothing attributing there.

All I am trying to point out is that if the thesis of this thread come true, then the reality of the situation is developed world governments will be bankrupt with limited tax options and huge unfunded liabilities/promises to voters. The pressure to find funding mechanisms for past unfunded promises will be thundering.

It is important to anticipate this possibility if you are predicting bitcoin as future global money as a possibility.

[justusranvier]

All I am trying to point out is that if the thesis of this thread come true, then the reality of the situation is developed world governments will be bankrupt with limited tax options and huge unfunded liabilities/promises to voters. The pressure to find funding mechanisms for past unfunded promises will be thundering.

The reality of the situation for developed world governments will be the same with or without Bitcoin.

[molecular]

who says i have any bitcoin?  i just believe in the cause of fair money.

Be careful with this, remember the Feds took down the mob by proving tax evasion, not actual crimes.

If the US government (with all of the data collected by NSA, etc) is able to prove that at one point you acquired a certain number of coins then it is easy for them to force to you admit to one of the following, either:
1) You sold the coins, in which case you better have reported that past sale to the IRS and paid taxes, or
2) You still control the coins

or

3) They got stolen...

* runs filing police report *

[Wekkel]

If Bitcoin grows large, exactly how will governments tax the 'windfall'?

I'm guessing they could only enforce anything at the fiat interface (bank account level).

Taxing users for bitcoin to physical goods transactions could only be a written law that users might or might not abide by. The same goes for posting cash around in envelopes.

If Bitcoin becomes massive, I do not think the government can tax as efficient as they do now. The apparatus would shrink drastic due to lack of income. How will they tie millions of people to (by then) zillion Bitcoin addresses? It's a losing proposition, and the government would know and switch to proven tax strategies from way back + property taxes. If too suppressive, a massive black market would exist with Dark Coin/Monero (XMR) type of currencies.

If you think cryptos will be really big, it's time to move to a jurisdiction that does not tax capital gains of individuals.

[brg444]

If you think cryptos will be really big, it's time to move to a jurisdiction that does not tax capital gains of individuals.

this.

if these scenario unfold I'm pulling a Erik Vorhees and expatriating myself some place me and my BTC will be left alone.

[Melbustus]

If you think cryptos will be really big, it's time to move to a jurisdiction that does not tax capital gains of individuals.

this.

if these scenario unfold I'm pulling a Erik Vorhees and expatriating myself some place me and my BTC will be left alone.

DId Erik actually renounce his citizenship? I think Roger did...

[smooth]

who says i have any bitcoin?  i just believe in the cause of fair money.

Be careful with this, remember the Feds took down the mob by proving tax evasion, not actual crimes.

If the US government (with all of the data collected by NSA, etc) is able to prove that at one point you acquired a certain number of coins then it is easy for them to force to you admit to one of the following, either:
1) You sold the coins, in which case you better have reported that past sale to the IRS and paid taxes, or
2) You still control the coins

or

3) They got stolen...

* runs filing police report *

"I threw out the hard drive"

[bassclef]

who says i have any bitcoin?  i just believe in the cause of fair money.

Be careful with this, remember the Feds took down the mob by proving tax evasion, not actual crimes.

If the US government (with all of the data collected by NSA, etc) is able to prove that at one point you acquired a certain number of coins then it is easy for them to force to you admit to one of the following, either:
1) You sold the coins, in which case you better have reported that past sale to the IRS and paid taxes, or
2) You still control the coins

or

3) They got stolen...

* runs filing police report *

"I threw out the hard drive"

"Private keys lost in a boating accident"

[cypherdoc]

Dow -201.

that's not good.

[cypherdoc]

that's alot of money.  US financial intermediaries should get mad:

Defying the dollar Russia & China agree currency swap worth over $20bn

http://rt.com/business/195556-russia-china-currency-swap/

[cypherdoc]

that's alot of money.  US financial intermediaries should get mad:

Defying the dollar Russia & China agree currency swap worth over $20bn

http://rt.com/business/195556-russia-china-currency-swap/

Medvedev and Li signed over 40 other agreements at the meeting, including outlining plans to add another pipeline from Russia to China. Li is in Moscow for a three-day visit.

well, i guess if Europe doesn't want to use it, China will.

[vuduchyld]

Dow -201.

that's not good.

Meh.  We're talking about a 6% slide (not even technically a correction) from the ATH.  I'd hope that isn't enough to cause much heartburn.  Of course, it is the spooky month of October.

[cypherdoc]

Glenn Greenwald:

http://www.ted.com/talks/glenn_greenwald_why_privacy_matters

[cypherdoc]

uh oh. breakdown.  see how the RUT has been leading?:

[kodtycoon]

uh oh. breakdown.  see how the RUT has been leading?:

where do you get these charts?

[cypherdoc]

$400