Bitcoin Forum
December 10, 2016, 01:22:06 AM *
News: Latest stable version of Bitcoin Core: 0.13.1  [Torrent].
 
   Home   Help Search Donate Login Register  
Poll
Question: Will you support Gavin's new block size limit hard fork of 8MB by January 1, 2016 then doubling every 2 years?
1.  yes
2.  no

Pages: « 1 ... 589 590 591 592 593 594 595 596 597 598 599 600 601 602 603 604 605 606 607 608 609 610 611 612 613 614 615 616 617 618 619 620 621 622 623 624 625 626 627 628 629 630 631 632 633 634 635 636 637 638 [639] 640 641 642 643 644 645 646 647 648 649 650 651 652 653 654 655 656 657 658 659 660 661 662 663 664 665 666 667 668 669 670 671 672 673 674 675 676 677 678 679 680 681 682 683 684 685 686 687 688 689 ... 1560 »
  Print  
Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 1807382 times)
boumalo
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 924


View Profile
September 26, 2014, 05:49:41 PM
 #12761

This is pretty huge.

The Danish gvt invested in Coinify:

SEED Capital is partly supported by Vækstfonden, the Danish government’s fund for creating growth in new companies. “This must be the first time government funds are invested in a Bitcoin company,” Olesen commented to CoinTelegraph.

http://cointelegraph.com/news/112607/coinify-seals-multi-million-external-funding-backed-by-danish-govt

It's a fun fact

gold getting smacked again.  Bitcoin stable.

This year Gold is in positive and Bitcoin lost 50%

that's true when you cherry pick.

i can do that too; look at the 5 yr chart Wink

And looking at something's eternal lifetime (so for both gold and Bitcoin and annualized), might not be considered cherry picking too. 

Ok, go back 3y then Wink



Obviously Bitcoin has more potential than Gold and performed better last few years but Bitcoin is more risky and Gold can benefit of the upcoming fall of the USD and western financial system too so it's a great asset to have for us who know what is coming

When you said Gold is getting smacked and Bitcoin is up it is indeed ery relative to the time frame Grin And you know that cypherdoc (cool name BTW)

1481332926
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1481332926

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1481332926
Reply with quote  #2

1481332926
Report to moderator
1481332926
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1481332926

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1481332926
Reply with quote  #2

1481332926
Report to moderator
1481332926
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1481332926

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1481332926
Reply with quote  #2

1481332926
Report to moderator
Advertised sites are not endorsed by the Bitcoin Forum. They may be unsafe, untrustworthy, or illegal in your jurisdiction. Advertise here.
1481332926
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1481332926

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1481332926
Reply with quote  #2

1481332926
Report to moderator
1481332926
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1481332926

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1481332926
Reply with quote  #2

1481332926
Report to moderator
cypherdoc
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1764



View Profile
September 26, 2014, 06:24:04 PM
 #12762

Scary stuff:

http://libertyblitzkrieg.com/2014/09/26/the-status-quo-playbook-beyond-2014-regulation-by-corporations-professional-politicians-and-the-strip-mining-of-sovereign-assets/
tvbcof
Legendary
*
Online Online

Activity: 1988


View Profile
September 26, 2014, 06:25:54 PM
 #12763


Obviously Bitcoin has more potential than Gold and performed better last few years but Bitcoin is more risky and Gold can benefit of the upcoming fall of the USD and western financial system too so it's a great asset to have for us who know what is coming


In my mind it's most likely that distributed crypto-currencies will benefit from a lose of confidence in fiat systems much more than gold.  The simple reason for this is that they are new and starting from a lower position relative to gold and silver.

I see gold, and to a larger degree, silver, as being something to have should a loss of confidence in fiat systems result in war, famine, totalitarianism, etc.  Such outcomes are not unusual in times of economic collapse and I don't think that any country is immune from them.  It would be much easier for authoritarians to limit realistic normal use of something like Bitcoin which requires a reasonably well-working and free global internet and in times of strife I find it almost inconceivable that such a thing would go unchallenged.  It would still be worth having some private keys with assigned value, but mostly to hold on to for better times and/or to use in operations which are already quite risky anyway.


cypherdoc
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1764



View Profile
September 26, 2014, 06:50:06 PM
 #12764

I found this quote interesting in light of Ethereum:

A robustly engineered program should intersect with bash, or any other Turing-complete system, at as few points as possible, and in as constrained a format as possible.

https://www.veracode.com/blog/2014/09/misfeatures-strike-again
tvbcof
Legendary
*
Online Online

Activity: 1988


View Profile
September 26, 2014, 07:06:07 PM
 #12765

I found this quote interesting in light of Ethereum:

A robustly engineered program should intersect with bash, or any other Turing-complete system, at as few points as possible, and in as constrained a format as possible.

https://www.veracode.com/blog/2014/09/misfeatures-strike-again

Took four words and a symbol to total fail:

  "Bash – the Unix shell – came out ..."

If anything is 'the unix shell' it is bourne shell.  I've had to devise systems occasionally which allow some user input to a shell or other program but it is rare and I aggressively limited the input.  In fairness, however, it would be possible for a regex engine (which does the discrimination)  to harbor some hidden bug as well, but relatively unlikely;  many of these ancient systems are quite small and simple and have been extensively analyzed over the past decades.  The changes are small so a lot of eyes will be looking at the deltas.

IMHO, the best way to achieve security is to build on very simple solutions and try to make one's own system very limited.  Even more critically, don't be lazy when it comes to installation (esp, which user executes which operations.)


cypherdoc
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1764



View Profile
September 26, 2014, 08:03:32 PM
 #12766

I found this quote interesting in light of Ethereum:

A robustly engineered program should intersect with bash, or any other Turing-complete system, at as few points as possible, and in as constrained a format as possible.

https://www.veracode.com/blog/2014/09/misfeatures-strike-again

Took four words and a symbol to total fail:

  "Bash – the Unix shell – came out ..."

If anything is 'the unix shell' it is bourne shell.  I've had to devise systems occasionally which allow some user input to a shell or other program but it is rare and I aggressively limited the input.  In fairness, however, it would be possible for a regex engine (which does the discrimination)  to harbor some hidden bug as well, but relatively unlikely;  many of these ancient systems are quite small and simple and have been extensively analyzed over the past decades.  The changes are small so a lot of eyes will be looking at the deltas.

IMHO, the best way to achieve security is to build on very simple solutions and try to make one's own system very limited.  Even more critically, don't be lazy when it comes to installation (esp, which user executes which operations.)



yeah, i knew  it was a cheap shot when i wrote it.  was waiting for someone to call me out on it.

but still, for a system that is supposed to hold and secure all sorts of valuable assets, i know i'm not the first one to bring up the concern regarding infinite loops due to Turing completeness.
cypherdoc
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1764



View Profile
September 26, 2014, 08:16:52 PM
 #12767

All this makes me want to weep:

    In her ruling on Wednesday, Abrams also rejected a move by Stengle for greater disclosure by the judge about her husband's relationship with Goldman Sachs. Abrams disclosed on April 3 that she had just learned that her husband, Greg Andres, a partner at Davis Polk & Wardwell, was representing Goldman in an advisory capacity.
    Stengle said at the time she would not seek Abrams' recusal, the judge said, and went ahead the next day with scheduled oral arguments on the defendants' bid to dismiss the case.
    But on April 11, Stengle made a written request for a "more complete disclosure" of Andres' relationship with Goldman, and Abrams' own working relationship with another defense lawyer.
    Abrams said that was too late, given that Segarra by then would have had a chance to "sample the temper of the court" and perhaps anticipate she would lose unless Abrams recused herself. "The timing of plaintiff's requests suggests that she is engaging in precisely the type of 'judge-shopping' the 2nd Circuit has cautioned against," Abrams wrote, referring to the federal appeals court in New York. "Such an attempt to engage in judicial game-playing strikes at the core of our legal system."


http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-09-26/how-goldman-controls-new-york-fed-475-hours-secret-goldman-sachs-tapes-explain
cypherdoc
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1764



View Profile
September 26, 2014, 08:29:42 PM
 #12768

I don't want to spoil the revelations of "This American Life": It's far better to hear the actual sounds on the radio, as so much of the meaning of the piece is in the tones of the voices -- and, especially, in the breathtaking wussiness of the people at the Fed charged with regulating Goldman Sachs. But once you have listened to it -- as when you were faced with the newly unignorable truth of what actually happened to that NFL running back's fiancee in that elevator -- consider the following:

1. You sort of knew that the regulators were more or less controlled by the banks. Now you know.

2. The only reason you know is that one woman, Carmen Segarra, has been brave enough to fight the system. She has paid a great price to inform us all of the obvious. She has lost her job, undermined her career, and will no doubt also endure a lifetime of lawsuits and slander.


http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2014-09-26/the-secret-goldman-sachs-tapes
justusranvier
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1400



View Profile WWW
September 26, 2014, 08:36:24 PM
 #12769

but still, for a system that is supposed to hold and secure all sorts of valuable assets, i know i'm not the first one to bring up the concern regarding infinite loops due to Turing completeness.
I'm satisfied that they can fix infinite loops by paying per cycle.

What's more concerning is that nobody has bothered to do many actual use case evaluations and cost/benefit analysis.

Etherum is supposed to be, fundamentally, a blockchain-based computer.

Because it's a global blockchain, the cycle times need to be somewhere on the order of minutes to ensure synchronization.

Cycle times in the minutes means a clock frequency in the millihertz range.

The processor in your smartphone operates in the gigahertz range.

That's not quite a fair comparison - each tick of the Ethereum computer can do more useful work than a single tick in an transitional CPU. How much more work? Maybe about a million times more work.

This means Ethereum is a computer with an effective clock speed in the kilohertz range. (The Intel 8086 processor released in 1976 had a minimum 5 megahertz clock speed)

Sure, it's Turing-complete, but the kinds of applications you're going to run on a computer with kilohertz-scale cycle times and access latencies measured in minutes are going to resemble the kind of programs that used to be written on punch cards more than they'll resemble Windows 8.

Oh, and how about the cost?

Let's assume there really are applications that are appropriate for the Ethereum computer. Not only are there applications, but the market demand for these applications is great enough that the transaction fees will pay for the operation of the Ethereum network (no network can pay for itself via currency printing for ever, after all).

Computations performed on the CPU in your PC only need to involve the transistors in a single chip, and are generally only performed once.

Computations performed on Ethereum need to be duplicated by CPUs all over the world and broadcast all over the globe.

Running your applications on Ethereum (absent any currency-printing subsidy) is going to be millions of times more expensive than running it on a local CPU.

Certainly there will be some applications that absolutely require what Ethereum does and will be willing to pay six orders of magnitude more than other alternatives in order to get it, but will there be enough of those applications to pay for the operation of the Ethereum network?
sidhujag
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1302


View Profile
September 26, 2014, 08:45:31 PM
 #12770

we are seeing us equities enter bubble territory as a base here as usd rises with equities... we are back to pre great recession correlation instead of usd acting as a safe haven its becoming an indication of US economic performance.
cypherdoc
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1764



View Profile
September 26, 2014, 08:51:43 PM
 #12771

we are seeing us equities enter bubble territory as a base here as usd rises with equities... we are back to pre great recession correlation instead of usd acting as a safe haven its becoming an indication of US economic performance.

interesting theory.  could be.  we'll see what happens Monday.  the pick up in volatility would suggest otherwise.

either way, bad for gold and silver.  i still think Bitcoin disconnects from the pm's and heads back up from here.
Melbustus
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1554



View Profile
September 26, 2014, 08:56:45 PM
 #12772

I love that Xapo is really getting behind the "Bitcoin is ideal money" thesis:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IP0jCjyrew8

^ Watch the whole thing; it's only 5 minutes. Directly challenges both fiat and gold. Big credit to Xapo here - I don't see any other mass-market bitcoin company being so explicitly/publicly bullish on the currency itself.

Bitcoin is the first monetary system to credibly offer perfect information to all economic participants.
But Bitcointalk & /r/bitcoin are heavily censored. bitco.in/forum, forum.bitcoin.com, and /r/btc are open.
Best info on Casascius coins: http://spotcoins.com/casascius
molecular
Donator
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2142



View Profile
September 26, 2014, 09:06:10 PM
 #12773

Bitcoin is very dangerous to trade. Its sensible for Schiff not to recommend it. Smart money figures it out on its own anyway.

Schiff will recommend Bitcoin once his Bitcoin stash has a similar value to his gold stash.

This might never materialize.

PGP key molecular F9B70769 fingerprint 9CDD C0D3 20F8 279F 6BE0  3F39 FC49 2362 F9B7 0769
Melbustus
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1554



View Profile
September 26, 2014, 09:24:48 PM
 #12774

but still, for a system that is supposed to hold and secure all sorts of valuable assets, i know i'm not the first one to bring up the concern regarding infinite loops due to Turing completeness.
I'm satisfied that they can fix infinite loops by paying per cycle.

What's more concerning is that nobody has bothered to do many actual use case evaluations and cost/benefit analysis.

Etherum is supposed to be, fundamentally, a blockchain-based computer.

Because it's a global blockchain, the cycle times need to be somewhere on the order of minutes to ensure synchronization.

Cycle times in the minutes means a clock frequency in the millihertz range.

The processor in your smartphone operates in the gigahertz range.

That's not quite a fair comparison - each tick of the Ethereum computer can do more useful work than a single tick in an transitional CPU. How much more work? Maybe about a million times more work.

This means Ethereum is a computer with an effective clock speed in the kilohertz range. (The Intel 8086 processor released in 1976 had a minimum 5 megahertz clock speed)

Sure, it's Turing-complete, but the kinds of applications you're going to run on a computer with kilohertz-scale cycle times and access latencies measured in minutes are going to resemble the kind of programs that used to be written on punch cards more than they'll resemble Windows 8.

Oh, and how about the cost?

Let's assume there really are applications that are appropriate for the Ethereum computer. Not only are there applications, but the market demand for these applications is great enough that the transaction fees will pay for the operation of the Ethereum network (no network can pay for itself via currency printing for ever, after all).

Computations performed on the CPU in your PC only need to involve the transistors in a single chip, and are generally only performed once.

Computations performed on Ethereum need to be duplicated by CPUs all over the world and broadcast all over the globe.

Running your applications on Ethereum (absent any currency-printing subsidy) is going to be millions of times more expensive than running it on a local CPU.

Certainly there will be some applications that absolutely require what Ethereum does and will be willing to pay six orders of magnitude more than other alternatives in order to get it, but will there be enough of those applications to pay for the operation of the Ethereum network?


In my mind, much of this boils down to Gavin's point that really the most interesting things you can do with "blockchain apps" involve some set of "Oracles", which can't be 100% decentralized... So, in light of the above cost outline, the question becomes: what *are* the applications which are worth paying millions of times more per compute cycle, which DO NOT involve an Oracle? (since presumably it's stupid to pay that much for decentralized compute when your key inputs are centralized anyways).


Bitcoin is the first monetary system to credibly offer perfect information to all economic participants.
But Bitcointalk & /r/bitcoin are heavily censored. bitco.in/forum, forum.bitcoin.com, and /r/btc are open.
Best info on Casascius coins: http://spotcoins.com/casascius
cypherdoc
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1764



View Profile
September 26, 2014, 09:48:23 PM
 #12775

but still, for a system that is supposed to hold and secure all sorts of valuable assets, i know i'm not the first one to bring up the concern regarding infinite loops due to Turing completeness.
I'm satisfied that they can fix infinite loops by paying per cycle.

What's more concerning is that nobody has bothered to do many actual use case evaluations and cost/benefit analysis.

Etherum is supposed to be, fundamentally, a blockchain-based computer.

Because it's a global blockchain, the cycle times need to be somewhere on the order of minutes to ensure synchronization.

Cycle times in the minutes means a clock frequency in the millihertz range.

The processor in your smartphone operates in the gigahertz range.

That's not quite a fair comparison - each tick of the Ethereum computer can do more useful work than a single tick in an transitional CPU. How much more work? Maybe about a million times more work.

This means Ethereum is a computer with an effective clock speed in the kilohertz range. (The Intel 8086 processor released in 1976 had a minimum 5 megahertz clock speed)

Sure, it's Turing-complete, but the kinds of applications you're going to run on a computer with kilohertz-scale cycle times and access latencies measured in minutes are going to resemble the kind of programs that used to be written on punch cards more than they'll resemble Windows 8.

Oh, and how about the cost?

Let's assume there really are applications that are appropriate for the Ethereum computer. Not only are there applications, but the market demand for these applications is great enough that the transaction fees will pay for the operation of the Ethereum network (no network can pay for itself via currency printing for ever, after all).

Computations performed on the CPU in your PC only need to involve the transistors in a single chip, and are generally only performed once.

Computations performed on Ethereum need to be duplicated by CPUs all over the world and broadcast all over the globe.

Running your applications on Ethereum (absent any currency-printing subsidy) is going to be millions of times more expensive than running it on a local CPU.

Certainly there will be some applications that absolutely require what Ethereum does and will be willing to pay six orders of magnitude more than other alternatives in order to get it, but will there be enough of those applications to pay for the operation of the Ethereum network?


In my mind, much of this boils down to Gavin's point that really the most interesting things you can do with "blockchain apps" involve some set of "Oracles", which can't be 100% decentralized... So, in light of the above cost outline, the question becomes: what *are* the applications which are worth paying millions of times more per compute cycle, which DO NOT involve an Oracle? (since presumably it's stupid to pay that much for decentralized compute when your key inputs are centralized anyways).



uh, maybe because The Blockchain may only ever be applicable to Bitcoin as Money?
justusranvier
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1400



View Profile WWW
September 26, 2014, 09:48:45 PM
 #12776

the question becomes: what *are* the applications which are worth paying millions of times more per compute cycle, which DO NOT involve an Oracle?
Exactly.

Ethereum's long term viability rests on the assumption that there is enough of these applications that servicing them will be profitable, i.e. the price that users of such applications will be willing to pay in transaction fees will be sufficient to cover the costs of operating the Ethereum network.

When was the last time you heard somebody involved with Ethereum spend any time at all explaining the long term value proposition of the Ethereum network?
Odalv
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1064



View Profile
September 26, 2014, 10:22:02 PM
 #12777

the question becomes: what *are* the applications which are worth paying millions of times more per compute cycle, which DO NOT involve an Oracle?
Exactly.

Ethereum's long term viability rests on the assumption that there is enough of these applications that servicing them will be profitable, i.e. the price that users of such applications will be willing to pay in transaction fees will be sufficient to cover the costs of operating the Ethereum network.

When was the last time you heard somebody involved with Ethereum spend any time at all explaining the long term value proposition of the Ethereum network?

I'm using a simple criterion: "Can it work on top of the bitcoin ?"

CoinJoin - yes
Hierarchical deterministic wallets- yes
Etherum - no ?
cypherdoc
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1764



View Profile
September 26, 2014, 10:27:15 PM
 #12778

the only thing they left out of this video was the dollar bill going in:

https://twitter.com/FascinatingVids/status/515605846357999617/photo/1

and the Bitcoin coming out.
sidhujag
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1302


View Profile
September 26, 2014, 11:26:14 PM
 #12779

we are seeing us equities enter bubble territory as a base here as usd rises with equities... we are back to pre great recession correlation instead of usd acting as a safe haven its becoming an indication of US economic performance.

interesting theory.  could be.  we'll see what happens Monday.  the pick up in volatility would suggest otherwise.

either way, bad for gold and silver.  i still think Bitcoin disconnects from the pm's and heads back up from here.
I called for it since 2011(predicted it happened within a year at that time) so the fact that it happens more now just means its a more powerful trend... can never get the timing right... but the hunch is usually right based on macro analysis. Makes sense anyway.. the country with the biggest army is the safest economically until the whole system implodes.

Since gold broke 1700 to the downside after 19xx we've seen flashes of this correlation but now its becoming evident... i personally think it will put downside pressure on btc in the short term, but any correction should help btc.
cypherdoc
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1764



View Profile
September 27, 2014, 12:59:57 AM
 #12780

we are seeing us equities enter bubble territory as a base here as usd rises with equities... we are back to pre great recession correlation instead of usd acting as a safe haven its becoming an indication of US economic performance.

interesting theory.  could be.  we'll see what happens Monday.  the pick up in volatility would suggest otherwise.

either way, bad for gold and silver.  i still think Bitcoin disconnects from the pm's and heads back up from here.
I called for it since 2011(predicted it happened within a year at that time) so the fact that it happens more now just means its a more powerful trend... can never get the timing right... but the hunch is usually right based on macro analysis. Makes sense anyway.. the country with the biggest army is the safest economically until the whole system implodes.

Since gold broke 1700 to the downside after 19xx we've seen flashes of this correlation but now its becoming evident... i personally think it will put downside pressure on btc in the short term, but any correction should help btc.

not sure if you mean you predicted gold or stocks in 2011.  if you mean the top in gold & silver, then you were right there with me altho certainly not around here.

i still think Bitcoin disconnects with gold and heads higher but it certainly is possible to go down with it for a while.

as for stocks and the dollar, there is a fundamental inconsistency in your argument.  since most money is debt and most of the money Wall St and stock jockeys play with is leverage and margin, a rising dollar cuts into any earnings from rising stocks.  it reduces their vig.  they want the dollar to go down so that they win on both sides of the trade.  in fact, the Fed has said it explicitly wants to chase cash holdings into "productive assets" which by their definition is stocks. we even have a name for it now; financial repression.  great, look what happened in 2000 and 2008.  the avg US citizen doesn't trust this strategy anymore and your rising dollar thesis would only reinforce their dollar hoarding.  what will chase them into stocks?  who's left to fuel the stock pump?  unlimited liquidity injections from the Fed to Wall St?  but wait, QE is going to terminate by the end of the year.

the other thing worth considering is 0 interest rates.  we seem to be at the lower bound altho i wouldn't doubt they'd try to shove negative rates down our throats. rising rates would kill everything i think.

mind you, i don't see any structural evidence we're near a top in the stock mkt.  for me, it's just a matter of timing and cycles.  we're overdue depending on what cycle you use.  doesn't mean it has to happen anytime soon though.

just things worth considering.
Pages: « 1 ... 589 590 591 592 593 594 595 596 597 598 599 600 601 602 603 604 605 606 607 608 609 610 611 612 613 614 615 616 617 618 619 620 621 622 623 624 625 626 627 628 629 630 631 632 633 634 635 636 637 638 [639] 640 641 642 643 644 645 646 647 648 649 650 651 652 653 654 655 656 657 658 659 660 661 662 663 664 665 666 667 668 669 670 671 672 673 674 675 676 677 678 679 680 681 682 683 684 685 686 687 688 689 ... 1560 »
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Sponsored by , a Bitcoin-accepting VPN.
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!