Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.

[MatthewLM]

Always annoying when gold and silver goes down but you miss the lows because you have no excess fiat to convert.

[1713906670]

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[silverbox]

Buy the excavator man..  What are you considering?  I have a Cat 426, I love that thing   Things that seemed silly or impossible become amazingly fun when you have heavy equipment

Since my days as a ditch digger I always poo-poo'd those small machines, but I watched an old Komatsu PC-45 at work for a while the other day and it seemed surprisingly capable.

In actual fact, several of the more pressing projects I have would benefit by a smaller machine with a swing boom.  And the ones which would benefit by a giant machine are ones which I can pick at over time.  I also would not mind being able to transport the thing more easily than moving the space shuttle.  So, I'll probably end up with the smallest machine I can find which has steel tracks and a thumb.

Just looked up that Komatsu pc-45.  I wouldn't go any smaller then that, but it looks fun, 10,000 lbs is still big enuf to really dig in .    You can weld up a rigid thumb on about anything if you really need one  

Have you considered a hoe?  Like a Deere 310 or 410?  I actually wanted a Deere 310, but got a good deal on the Cat 426, so went with it..

Now if you can find a seller that will take BTC.. It could be a bitcoin first!

[silverbox]

Always annoying when gold and silver goes down but you miss the lows because you have no excess fiat to convert.

Yeah I was about to buy some silver if it went any lower. 

[tvbcof]

Buy the excavator man..  What are you considering?  I have a Cat 426, I love that thing   Things that seemed silly or impossible become amazingly fun when you have heavy equipment

Since my days as a ditch digger I always poo-poo'd those small machines, but I watched an old Komatsu PC-45 at work for a while the other day and it seemed surprisingly capable.

In actual fact, several of the more pressing projects I have would benefit by a smaller machine with a swing boom.  And the ones which would benefit by a giant machine are ones which I can pick at over time.  I also would not mind being able to transport the thing more easily than moving the space shuttle.  So, I'll probably end up with the smallest machine I can find which has steel tracks and a thumb.

Just looked up that Komatsu pc-45.  I wouldn't go any smaller then that, but it looks fun, 10,000 lbs is still big enuf to really dig in .    You can weld up a rigid thumb on about anything if you really need one  

Have you considered a hoe?  Like a Deere 310 or 410?  I actually wanted a Deere 310, but got a good deal on the Cat 426, so went with it..

Now if you can find a seller that will take BTC.. It could be a bitcoin first!

I've already got a small-ish but satisfactory Kubota wheel-hoe.

The projects I have include building a semi-usable access road in some fairly impossible terrain a-la Burma (where I would almost certainly role a wheel hoe) and dealing with vast quantities of brush, roots, stumps and logs (which is why a well functioning thumb and steel tracks appeal to me.)  I also want to work on a 'bunker complex like thing' at some more urban property.

I'd love to have a good reason to bury fiber but would lack something to plug it into.  Long range wireless is the most likely solution to my network problems unfortunately.

[silverbox]

Buy the excavator man..  What are you considering?  I have a Cat 426, I love that thing   Things that seemed silly or impossible become amazingly fun when you have heavy equipment

Since my days as a ditch digger I always poo-poo'd those small machines, but I watched an old Komatsu PC-45 at work for a while the other day and it seemed surprisingly capable.

In actual fact, several of the more pressing projects I have would benefit by a smaller machine with a swing boom.  And the ones which would benefit by a giant machine are ones which I can pick at over time.  I also would not mind being able to transport the thing more easily than moving the space shuttle.  So, I'll probably end up with the smallest machine I can find which has steel tracks and a thumb.

Just looked up that Komatsu pc-45.  I wouldn't go any smaller then that, but it looks fun, 10,000 lbs is still big enuf to really dig in .    You can weld up a rigid thumb on about anything if you really need one  

Have you considered a hoe?  Like a Deere 310 or 410?  I actually wanted a Deere 310, but got a good deal on the Cat 426, so went with it..

Now if you can find a seller that will take BTC.. It could be a bitcoin first!

I've already got a small-ish but satisfactory Kubota wheel-hoe.

The projects I have include building a semi-usable access road in some fairly impossible terrain a-la Burma (where I would almost certainly role a wheel hoe) and dealing with vast quantities of brush, roots, stumps and logs (which is why a well functioning thumb and steel tracks appeal to me.)  I also want to work on a 'bunker complex like thing' at some more urban property.

I'd love to have a good reason to bury fiber but would lack something to plug it into.  Long range wireless is the most likely solution to my network problems unfortunately.

I hope its not one of those baby kubota's (less then 5,000 lbs) I've used those before and they can't dig for shit, cause they don't have enuf weight to transfer onto the bucket tines.

Don't bury fiber, bury conduit (for power distribution and hardwired com/surveillance).  You can always pull fiber thru it later, but plain ol copper works just fine

[tvbcof]

I've already got a small-ish but satisfactory Kubota wheel-hoe.

The projects I have include building a semi-usable access road in some fairly impossible terrain a-la Burma (where I would almost certainly role a wheel hoe) and dealing with vast quantities of brush, roots, stumps and logs (which is why a well functioning thumb and steel tracks appeal to me.)  I also want to work on a 'bunker complex like thing' at some more urban property.

I'd love to have a good reason to bury fiber but would lack something to plug it into.  Long range wireless is the most likely solution to my network problems unfortunately.

I hope its not one of those baby kubota's (less then 5,000 lbs) I've used those before and they can't dig for shit, cause they don't have enuf weight to transfer onto the bucket tines.

Don't bury fiber, bury conduit (for power distribution and hardwired com/surveillance).  You can always pull fiber thru it later, but plain ol copper works just fine

The Kubota is more or less a baby (B7800), and it's only half mine.  But it is practically new so quite reliable, sips fuel, and plenty big for 95% of what we use it for.  In fact we've not even mounted the hoe for a year.  I've got access to several large wheel-hoes complements of relatives and neighbors when I really need one, so it makes sense to borrow (or rent) in the minority of cases when I really want to do some serious earth moving (though I prefer a dozer for that in many cases.)

As far as conduit is concerned, I'm not thrilled at the prospects of trying to pull anything through a quarter mile of conduit.  And to get to a fat pipe would be more like 15 miles.

[silverbox]

I've already got a small-ish but satisfactory Kubota wheel-hoe.

The projects I have include building a semi-usable access road in some fairly impossible terrain a-la Burma (where I would almost certainly role a wheel hoe) and dealing with vast quantities of brush, roots, stumps and logs (which is why a well functioning thumb and steel tracks appeal to me.)  I also want to work on a 'bunker complex like thing' at some more urban property.

I'd love to have a good reason to bury fiber but would lack something to plug it into.  Long range wireless is the most likely solution to my network problems unfortunately.

I hope its not one of those baby kubota's (less then 5,000 lbs) I've used those before and they can't dig for shit, cause they don't have enuf weight to transfer onto the bucket tines.

Don't bury fiber, bury conduit (for power distribution and hardwired com/surveillance).  You can always pull fiber thru it later, but plain ol copper works just fine

The Kubota is more or less a baby (B7800), and it's only half mine.  But it is practically new so quite reliable, sips fuel, and plenty big for 95% of what we use it for.  In fact we've not even mounted the hoe for a year.  I've got access to several large wheel-hoes complements of relatives and neighbors when I really need one, so it makes sense to borrow (or rent) in the minority of cases when I really want to do some serious earth moving (though I prefer a dozer for that in many cases.)

As far as conduit is concerned, I'm not thrilled at the prospects of trying to pull anything through a quarter mile of conduit.  And to get to a fat pipe would be more like 15 miles.

Yeah the B7800 is a baby , like 1800 lbs. 

I didn't mean to run conduit to get to I-net, but for internal com/power for buildings on the same property , If your gonna have a bunker, might as well have a few outbuildings and what not .  Its so handy to have a conduit between buildings with a pull rope left in it.. Whenever you need so and so at location X, you just pull it .  If you leave a big enuf conduit, you can even go really old school and run stuff with discrete signals, lol.

[Stephen Gornick]

Always annoying when gold and silver goes down but you miss the lows because you have no excess fiat to convert.

This still boils down to doing a wire transfer to APMEX, but at least you can fund the wire using Bitcoins.  Still isn't instant though:
 - http://www.spendbitcoins.com/convert/apmex/

[tvbcof]

I didn't mean to run conduit to get to I-net, but for internal com/power for buildings on the same property , If your gonna have a bunker, might as well have a few outbuildings and what not .  Its so handy to have a conduit between buildings with a pull rope left in it.. Whenever you need so and so at location X, you just pull it .  If you leave a big enuf conduit, you can even go really old school and run stuff with discrete signals, lol.

What I actually need is a retaining wall (town property.)  But an underground garage would be handy and would solve some of the engineering issues which vex tall retaining walls.

But I have a rather long stretch which needs a retaining wall.  So it would be cool to have a sister structure to use as a workspace and I could re-use most of the falsework.

Now if I have an underground workspace, what would be cool would be to have it EMP and TEMPEST resistant.  Hmmm...starting to look a bit more like a bunker complex.

Actually what I need is an excuse to get an excavator I fear.  If I get around to doing this work you can bet your bottom dollar (or BTC or silver coin) that it will be riddled with conduit

[silverbox]

I didn't mean to run conduit to get to I-net, but for internal com/power for buildings on the same property , If your gonna have a bunker, might as well have a few outbuildings and what not .  Its so handy to have a conduit between buildings with a pull rope left in it.. Whenever you need so and so at location X, you just pull it .  If you leave a big enuf conduit, you can even go really old school and run stuff with discrete signals, lol.

What I actually need is a retaining wall (town property.)  But an underground garage would be handy and would solve some of the engineering issues which vex tall retaining walls.

But I have a rather long stretch which needs a retaining wall.  So it would be cool to have a sister structure to use as a workspace and I could re-use most of the falsework.

Now if I have an underground workspace, what would be cool would be to have it EMP and TEMPEST resistant.  Hmmm...starting to look a bit more like a bunker complex.

Actually what I need is an excuse to get an excavator I fear.  If I get around to doing this work you can bet your bottom dollar (or BTC or silver coin) that it will be riddled with conduit

Nice .  You should get an excavator, or a big hoe!  probably the nicest thing about a big hoe is that the front bucket is really big (mines 1/2 yard, which is like 2/3 yard of dirt u take a heaping scoop), so you can tear up a big area with the hoe then front bucket all the material to someplace else, harder to do this with an excavator.  Also if you have a 4 way front bucket on a hoe, you can pick up really big things and move them around, the arm is strong, but not pick up a 2 ton log strong .

[cypherdoc]

you 2 are gonna need those machines to move all your metal around  :

[miscreanity]

you 2 are gonna need those machines to move all your metal around  :

At least they'll have it - a real asset that acts as savings. You'll have Bitcoin, which isn't ready for prime time yet.

One of the most accurate analyses I've come across - from: http://www.gata.org/files/QBAMCO-May2012.pdf

The absolute amount of gold held in official hands – 10%, 18% or even 25% -- is meaningless. The important concept to keep in mind is that the stock of official gold holdings throughout all economies is quite small relative to privately held bullion. Somewhere in the world there is between $7 and $15 trillion of gold wealth (at current spot pricing) held in private hands (vs. $1.6 trillion in official accounts). Private wealth holders across the world have been saving gold bullion for generations; in Europe, the Middle East, China, India, Japan, Russia, South America and the United States (even in private pockets on Wall Street, believe it not, where there’s an old saying: “make it on Wall Street, bury it on Main Street”).

It should not be surprising that global central banks have begun buying gold bullion in ever increasing amounts. It was just reported this month that Hong Kong shipped almost 63 metric tons of gold to China in March, a 59% increase over February and a 587% increase year over year. Russia has been a consistent buyer of about 5,000 tonnes each month and has recently accelerated its purchases. Other high growth economies including India cannot seem to get sufficient supplies of bullion. Clearly the governments of these countries want to exchange their baseless and diluting reserves for a scarcer money form. And just this week the IMF – yes, the same IMF that had been selling its bullion to central banks of emerging economies with surplus reserves – announced it was buying $2 billion of gold. The reason: “there is a need to increase the Fund’s reserves in order to help mitigate...elevated credit risks”.

Meanwhile, central banks of developed debtor economies are being pressured by their contracting debt-based economies to manufacture more fiat currencies through the process of debt monetization – issuing even more debt and paying for it with newly-created base money (currency and/or bank reserves held at central banks). They are devaluing their currencies for savers and investors and destroying the future purchasing power of surplus
reserves held abroad.

If past is prologue, the baseless currencies of developed economies will eventually be subjected to asset monetization. Greece could solve its debt problems tomorrow if it sold Mykonos for $400 billion and the US could halve its Treasury debt if it sold Alaska for $8 trillion. However, such asset sales seem far more unlikely (and in Alaska’s case, impossible – who could buy it?) than simply revaluing an asset already held in official hands -- the asset monetary issuers have always used; the only monetary asset on their balance sheets that can be re-valued higher against the currency they manufacture; (one might say the “traditional” one): gold.

We argue the final outcome must be to devalue current baseless currencies against gold and that governments of high-growth economies are buying official gold in increasing amounts so they have a representative share when gold becomes the basis for a new global monetary system.

Have global private gold savers/investors that comprise the great majority of its holders been buying in advance of a more formal currency reset (devaluation) of baseless paper against gold? Who are central banks buying their physical gold from currently? (Certainly they are not buying it from global commodities exchanges.) The only answer is that they must be buying all they can from the 80% to 90% of private gold holders in the world. And we should ask ourselves this: who has been buying gold consistently since 2000, when it traded around $250 an ounce, 11 years before central banks became net buyers? Could the buyers have been private holders around the world that understand wealth doesn’t begin and end with leveraged Western financial assets and baseless fiat currencies? This would make sense.

Still, the volume of physical gold traded relative to its stock remains tiny, implying that relatively few physical holders are willing to part with most of their gold. If central banks want to stock their shelves prior to devaluation then they would have to employ a bit of finesse. If we were a sovereign in search of gold we would short gold futures and take physical bullion off the market at synthetically low prices (the same way other sovereigns might manipulate, say, interest rates).

And finally, who are the private bullion-owning wealth holders that are leaking gold out to hungry governments and central banks? By definition they are collectively The Powers That Be. Whether they are disaggregated or conspiratorially linked, private gold holders are the true unencumbered savers among us. They are the ones that have a chunk of their wealth in a money form that stores purchasing power no matter what. And unlike fiduciaries overseeing the encumbered wealth of financial asset investors, there is no one and no system between them and their purchasing power.

We suspect most of these quiet savers are quite sophisticated, know exactly what they are doing, and view the preponderance of levered financial assets with suspicion regardless of whatever value they may have relative to one another. (Would it be that much of a stretch to believe these individuals holding trillions in inert rocks might also have great influence over global resources, monetary systems, banking systems and governments?)

tl;dr - privately held gold is multiples greater than the amount of official gold holdings, and it is where the real power behind the global financial system sits. Gold is artificially (mis)priced in fiat terms, and will be revalued much higher.

[N12]

tl;dr - privately held gold is multiples greater than the amount of official gold holdings, and it is where the real power behind the global financial system sits. Gold is artificially (mis)priced in fiat terms, and will be revalued much higher.

Cool story, but will this happen in our lifetimes?

It seems to me that the intent of the fancy "IT IS ALL MANIPULATED! MARKET IS RIGGED!" stories is about getting people to hold the metal bag when they have no other option than the paper price (where can I sell gold for higher? I would like to take that opportunity up, please), so their wealth is being drained.

[tvbcof]

General Comment: New more compact historic form.  Enjoy!

Another Score:  5/17/12
          year ago    now       delta mult
BTC     7.80         5.09       + 0.65
Gold    1480         1574      + 1.06

--------------------------
ref (for future updates):
http://bitcoincharts.com/charts/mtgoxUSD#czsg2011-05-08zeg2011-05-08ztgSzm1g10zm2g25zv  (change date)
http://www.kitco.com/charts/livegold.html  (hist cgi at bottom)
mult=now/year_ago

day          ya-btc  btc  mult  ya-Au  Au    mult  
2012-05-17  7.80  5.09  0.65    1480  1574  1.06            
2012-05-16  7.40  5.09  0.69    1495  1533  1.03
2012-05-15  6.80  5.03  0.74    1492  1545  1.04
2012-05-14  8.50  5.00  0.59    1495  1555  1.04
2012-05-12  5.40  4.95  0.92    1505  1580  1.05
2012-05-11  5.00  4.95  0.99    1505  1580  1.05
2012-05-10  3.82  4.90  1.28    1510  1593  1.05
2012-05-09  3.75  5.03  1.34    1510  1590  1.05
2012-05-08  3.64  5.03  1.38    1497  1605  1.07

[bitcoinBull]

General Comment: New more compact historic form.  Enjoy!

How about doing a comparison of prices starting from six months ago instead?

Or are you intentionally trolling with your cherry-picked datapoints?

[tvbcof]

General Comment: New more compact historic form.  Enjoy!

How about doing a comparison of prices starting from six months ago instead?

Or are you intentionally trolling with your cherry-picked datapoints?

Purposely cherry-picking.  It's something of a trend on this thread.

Hey, Silverbox.  Where's your daily report.  It would be interesting to note whether Cypherdoc was 'King for a day'... generously characterizing yesterday's brief performance metrics as 'right'...

[cypherdoc]

General Comment: New more compact historic form.  Enjoy!

How about doing a comparison of prices starting from six months ago instead?

Or are you intentionally trolling with your cherry-picked datapoints?

Purposely cherry-picking.  It's something of a trend on this thread.

Hey, Silverbox.  Where's your daily report.  It would be interesting to note whether Cypherdoc was 'King for a day'... generously characterizing yesterday's brief performance metrics as 'right'...

care to give an example of this so called "cherry picking"?  or just another careless comment?  

according to these charts of gold, silver, and the miners over the last year, alot of ppl would agree that i've gotten the call on pm's right.  these charts should totally be agreeable since you're seemingly into year on year comparisons.

or are you just a cherry picker too?:

[the joint]

I think Miscreanity should start a subscription service.

[cypherdoc]

I think Miscreanity should start a subscription service.

what happened to the Roadrunner?

[the joint]

I think Miscreanity should start a subscription service.

what happened to the Roadrunner?

I've been reading his posts, not yours.