[XMR] Monero Speculation

[mmortal03]

Cross-chain mixing works for some purposes, but Putin/Kirchner/Obama's tax thugs and lickspittle corporatists will demand to know the origin of your coins.  Which is effectively a whitelisting approach putting the burden of proof on the user to prove their innocence against the presumption of guilt.

Right, what do you do when you buy something with such spent Bitcoins or Moneroj, when they come back and say, "We know you bought such and such with these, because it was shipped to your address. We now need a verifiable record of when and where you bought them, because you now potentially owe capital gains taxes on them."

[QuantumQrack]

Cross-chain mixing works for some purposes, but Putin/Kirchner/Obama's tax thugs and lickspittle corporatists will demand to know the origin of your coins.  Which is effectively a whitelisting approach putting the burden of proof on the user to prove their innocence against the presumption of guilt.

Right, what do you do when you buy something with such spent Bitcoins or Moneroj, when they come back and say, "We know you bought such and such with these, because it was shipped to your address. We now need a verifiable record of when and where you bought them, because you now potentially owe capital gains taxes on them."

I would advise everybody to just follow the rule of the law in your particular jurisdiction. :-)

[Anon136]

Cross-chain mixing works for some purposes, but Putin/Kirchner/Obama's tax thugs and lickspittle corporatists will demand to know the origin of your coins.  Which is effectively a whitelisting approach putting the burden of proof on the user to prove their innocence against the presumption of guilt.

Right, what do you do when you buy something with such spent Bitcoins or Moneroj, when they come back and say, "We know you bought such and such with these, because it was shipped to your address. We now need a verifiable record of when and where you bought them, because you now potentially owe capital gains taxes on them."

I would advise everybody to just follow the rule of the law in your particular jurisdiction. :-)

I couldn't agree more. You should definitely always follow the states instructions.

[shmadz]

Cross-chain mixing works for some purposes, but Putin/Kirchner/Obama's tax thugs and lickspittle corporatists will demand to know the origin of your coins.  Which is effectively a whitelisting approach putting the burden of proof on the user to prove their innocence against the presumption of guilt.

Right, what do you do when you buy something with such spent Bitcoins or Moneroj, when they come back and say, "We know you bought such and such with these, because it was shipped to your address. We now need a verifiable record of when and where you bought them, because you now potentially owe capital gains taxes on them."

I would advise everybody to just follow the rule of the law in your particular jurisdiction. :-)

I couldn't agree more. You should definitely always follow the states instructions.

I'm hoping there will be a state or jurisdiction that will embrace crypto, somewhere in the world, sometime within the next few years.

I'm expecting that this hypothetical state would gain a great deal of intellectual immigration and we should see a new "brain drain" from nations that oppose crypto ( not just crypto currency, but as some nations are now considering making crypto that has no back door illegal.)

Either my country embraces freedom and privacy, or I'm gonna be looking for alternatives.

[QuantumQrack]

Cross-chain mixing works for some purposes, but Putin/Kirchner/Obama's tax thugs and lickspittle corporatists will demand to know the origin of your coins.  Which is effectively a whitelisting approach putting the burden of proof on the user to prove their innocence against the presumption of guilt.

Right, what do you do when you buy something with such spent Bitcoins or Moneroj, when they come back and say, "We know you bought such and such with these, because it was shipped to your address. We now need a verifiable record of when and where you bought them, because you now potentially owe capital gains taxes on them."

I would advise everybody to just follow the rule of the law in your particular jurisdiction. :-)

I couldn't agree more. You should definitely always follow the states instructions.

So you are... comparing paying taxes to killing jews and burying them in mass graves?  ooooook.  Seems a stretch.

[pa]

Cross-chain mixing works for some purposes, but Putin/Kirchner/Obama's tax thugs and lickspittle corporatists will demand to know the origin of your coins.  Which is effectively a whitelisting approach putting the burden of proof on the user to prove their innocence against the presumption of guilt.

Right, what do you do when you buy something with such spent Bitcoins or Moneroj, when they come back and say, "We know you bought such and such with these, because it was shipped to your address. We now need a verifiable record of when and where you bought them, because you now potentially owe capital gains taxes on them."

I would advise everybody to just follow the rule of the law in your particular jurisdiction. :-)

I couldn't agree more. You should definitely always follow the states instructions.

I'm hoping there will be a state or jurisdiction that will embrace crypto, somewhere in the world, sometime within the next few years.

I'm expecting that this hypothetical state would gain a great deal of intellectual immigration and we should see a new "brain drain" from nations that oppose crypto ( not just crypto currency, but as some nations are now considering making crypto that has no back door illegal.)

Either my country embraces freedom and privacy, or I'm gonna be looking for alternatives.

We could establish a state in Antarctica and declare Monero to be legal tender. If global warming actually occurs, it may even have a pleasant climate someday.

[Hueristic]

Cross-chain mixing works for some purposes, but Putin/Kirchner/Obama's tax thugs and lickspittle corporatists will demand to know the origin of your coins.  Which is effectively a whitelisting approach putting the burden of proof on the user to prove their innocence against the presumption of guilt.

Right, what do you do when you buy something with such spent Bitcoins or Moneroj, when they come back and say, "We know you bought such and such with these, because it was shipped to your address. We now need a verifiable record of when and where you bought them, because you now potentially owe capital gains taxes on them."

I would advise everybody to just follow the rule of the law in your particular jurisdiction. :-)

I couldn't agree more. You should definitely always follow the states instructions.

So you are... comparing paying taxes to killing jews and burying them in mass graves?  ooooook.  Seems a stretch.

No, he is pointing out the absurdity of your global statement.

[QuantumQrack]

Cross-chain mixing works for some purposes, but Putin/Kirchner/Obama's tax thugs and lickspittle corporatists will demand to know the origin of your coins.  Which is effectively a whitelisting approach putting the burden of proof on the user to prove their innocence against the presumption of guilt.

Right, what do you do when you buy something with such spent Bitcoins or Moneroj, when they come back and say, "We know you bought such and such with these, because it was shipped to your address. We now need a verifiable record of when and where you bought them, because you now potentially owe capital gains taxes on them."

I would advise everybody to just follow the rule of the law in your particular jurisdiction. :-)

I couldn't agree more. You should definitely always follow the states instructions.

So you are... comparing paying taxes to killing jews and burying them in mass graves?  ooooook.  Seems a stretch.

No, he is pointing out the absurdity of your global statement.

So its absurd to follow laws concerning taxation?  We have a name for people who do that..they are called criminals.  Maybe you have read about a few or even know a few personally?  If you think Monero or cryptocurrencies are some panacea that will get people out of paying their fair share...you are sadly mistaken.

[Anon136]

Cross-chain mixing works for some purposes, but Putin/Kirchner/Obama's tax thugs and lickspittle corporatists will demand to know the origin of your coins.  Which is effectively a whitelisting approach putting the burden of proof on the user to prove their innocence against the presumption of guilt.

Right, what do you do when you buy something with such spent Bitcoins or Moneroj, when they come back and say, "We know you bought such and such with these, because it was shipped to your address. We now need a verifiable record of when and where you bought them, because you now potentially owe capital gains taxes on them."

I would advise everybody to just follow the rule of the law in your particular jurisdiction. :-)

I couldn't agree more. You should definitely always follow the states instructions.

So you are... comparing paying taxes to killing jews and burying them in mass graves?  ooooook.  Seems a stretch.

No, he is pointing out the absurdity of your global statement.

So its absurd to follow laws concerning taxation?  We have a name for people who do that..they are called criminals.  Maybe you have read about a few or even know a few personally?  If you think Monero or cryptocurrencies are some panacea that will get people out of paying their fair share...you are sadly mistaken.

holy strawman

[Hueristic]

So its absurd to follow laws concerning taxation?  We have a name for people who do that..they are called criminals.  Maybe you have read about a few or even know a few personally?  If you think Monero or cryptocurrencies are some panacea that will get people out of paying their fair share...you are sadly mistaken.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superior_orders

[jehst]

I know "don't quote the trolls", but what about when it is funny?

I really enjoy the troll compilation posts. When their posts are all together in once place, you can really see how small their vocabularies are.

[Johnny Mnemonic]

So its absurd to follow laws concerning taxation?  We have a name for people who do that..they are called criminals.

If you follow laws you don't believe in, you're a criminal to humanity, and are responsible for some of the worst atrocities known to man.

[smooth]

Cross-chain mixing works for some purposes, but Putin/Kirchner/Obama's tax thugs and lickspittle corporatists will demand to know the origin of your coins.  Which is effectively a whitelisting approach putting the burden of proof on the user to prove their innocence against the presumption of guilt.

Right, what do you do when you buy something with such spent Bitcoins or Moneroj, when they come back and say, "We know you bought such and such with these, because it was shipped to your address. We now need a verifiable record of when and where you bought them, because you now potentially owe capital gains taxes on them."

I would advise everybody to just follow the rule of the law in your particular jurisdiction. :-)

I couldn't agree more. You should definitely always follow the states instructions.

So you are... comparing paying taxes to killing jews and burying them in mass graves?  ooooook.  Seems a stretch.

No, he is pointing out the absurdity of your global statement.

So its absurd to follow laws concerning taxation?  We have a name for people who do that..they are called criminals.  Maybe you have read about a few or even know a few personally?  If you think Monero or cryptocurrencies are some panacea that will get people out of paying their fair share...you are sadly mistaken.

One of the things that technology does (all forms of technology, not just cryptocurrency) is change the conditions on the ground which create the context in which civilization is built and organized. So ultimately I have no doubt that one way or another people will be paying their fair share, but those ways will change, just as they have many times in the past.

[smooth]

Cross-chain mixing works for some purposes, but Putin/Kirchner/Obama's tax thugs and lickspittle corporatists will demand to know the origin of your coins.  Which is effectively a whitelisting approach putting the burden of proof on the user to prove their innocence against the presumption of guilt.

Right, what do you do when you buy something with such spent Bitcoins or Moneroj, when they come back and say, "We know you bought such and such with these, because it was shipped to your address. We now need a verifiable record of when and where you bought them, because you now potentially owe capital gains taxes on them."

I would advise everybody to just follow the rule of the law in your particular jurisdiction. :-)

I couldn't agree more. You should definitely always follow the states instructions.

I'm hoping there will be a state or jurisdiction that will embrace crypto, somewhere in the world, sometime within the next few years.

I'm expecting that this hypothetical state would gain a great deal of intellectual immigration and we should see a new "brain drain" from nations that oppose crypto ( not just crypto currency, but as some nations are now considering making crypto that has no back door illegal.)

Either my country embraces freedom and privacy, or I'm gonna be looking for alternatives.

Don't me started on my crypto war scenario. It's not a pretty picture and the outlines are already visible. Not good.

[Erik Goff]

One of the things that technology does (all forms of technology, not just cryptocurrency) is change the conditions on the ground which create the context in which civilization is built and organized. So ultimately I have no doubt that one way or another people will be paying their fair share, but those ways will change, just as they have many times in the past.

I couldn't agree more. I believe crypto is going to force governments to change to 'utility-based tax' which is a good thing.  For example, i pay 10 cents to have my trash removed, or 10 cents every time when i flush the toilet. Crypto/the internet of things makes this possible, and it could be the savior of the 'tragedy of the commons'.  Labor based tax ( the one people want to hide form their gov)  is obsolete. with utility-based tax, governments are reduced back to what they should do: provide services for citizens.

[jehst]

For example, i pay 10 cents to have my trash removed, or 10 cents every time when i flush the toilet.  ... Labor based tax ( the one people want to hide form their gov)  is obsolete. with utility-based tax, governments are reduced back to what they should do: provide services for citizens.

I don't think so. Our most expensive life purchases are real estate and vehicles. We can't hide either one. If people use cryptocurrency to hide their income sources, then governments will just tax us more on what they can see. They'll simply assume you're making a certain salary if you own a certain type of property and drive a certain type of car.

If you don't pay up, they just seize your house and car.

In addition, they'll increase the sales tax on physical goods. And if you have a physical store selling physical goods, you won't be able to hide your activity there.

(Of course, you can take advantage of this system if you're wealthy by living your whole life in a low-end house driving a low-end car and not consuming physical goods. Then, congratulations, you die a winner tax-wise.)

[MalMen]

For example, i pay 10 cents to have my trash removed, or 10 cents every time when i flush the toilet.  ... Labor based tax ( the one people want to hide form their gov)  is obsolete. with utility-based tax, governments are reduced back to what they should do: provide services for citizens.

I don't think so. Our most expensive life purchases are real estate and vehicles. We can't hide either one. If people use cryptocurrency to hide their income sources, then governments will just tax us more on what they can see. They'll simply assume you're making a certain salary if you own a certain type of property and drive a certain type of car.

If you don't pay up, they just seize your house and car.

In addition, they'll increase the sales tax on physical goods. And if you have a physical store selling physical goods, you won't be able to hide your activity there.

(Of course, you can take advantage of this system if you're wealthy by living your whole life in a low-end house driving a low-end car and not consuming physical goods. Then, congratulations, you die a winner tax-wise.)

I agree with that.... For example, in my country its iligal to be free energy independent, if you have solar panels that produce all you need to your house you cannot use that power for free, you need allways to sell that power and buy it again so the governament can tax it... i imagine that they will not like an currency that they cannot control at all

[rpietila]

Government's public purpose is to provide public services. But its real purpose is to be a power monopoly. They are in a difficult position, because if they care too much of the services for the people, they end up being attacked by other governments. If they care only for their staying in power, they end up becoming tyrannies and also succumb to bloody revolutions.

People should try to stay away from these power games. The more I have read and heard about history, governments are always the same. Follow your conscience.

[mmortal03]

Cross-chain mixing works for some purposes, but Putin/Kirchner/Obama's tax thugs and lickspittle corporatists will demand to know the origin of your coins.  Which is effectively a whitelisting approach putting the burden of proof on the user to prove their innocence against the presumption of guilt.

Right, what do you do when you buy something with such spent Bitcoins or Moneroj, when they come back and say, "We know you bought such and such with these, because it was shipped to your address. We now need a verifiable record of when and where you bought them, because you now potentially owe capital gains taxes on them."

I would advise everybody to just follow the rule of the law in your particular jurisdiction. :-)

Say you actually wanted to comply with such a law, where every crypto transaction might have capital gains implications. Am I really expected to keep a receipt of every single purchase I make with a cryptocurrency? Explain to me how one should even begin to keep such records for compliance if I buy things with Monero?

[ArticMine]

Government's public purpose is to provide public services. But its real purpose is to be a power monopoly. They are in a difficult position, because if they care too much of the services for the people, they end up being attacked by other governments. If they care only for their staying in power, they end up becoming tyrannies and also succumb to bloody revolutions.

People should try to stay away from these power games. The more I have read and heard about history, governments are always the same. Follow your conscience.

The real threat is not governments. It is corporations such as Microsoft and Apple who use DRM to control their customers for their own profit. A perfect example of this fast growing problem is the following support request:

Hey I'm using windows 8.1 RT and I cant download anything from outside except the store and the Store Doesn't have any Bitcoin related Applications! Now how do I setup a cold wallet?

You can't. Windows 8.1 RT can best be described as a Portable Orwellian Telescreen. Only those applications authorized by Big Brother (Microsoft and the MPAA) are permitted and Bitcoin is not one of them. I would recommend a computer running GNU/Linux for anything related to Bitcoin.

I have no problem figuring out capital gains on XBT or XMR and paying the appropriate tax to the Canadian government. I do have a big problem with DRM and bootloader locked devices. The real evil is corporations such as Microsoft and Apple that push DRM to meet the greed of organizations such as the MPAA. If they had their way I would not be able to use XBT or XMR, would not have any of the capital gains and would not have to pay said taxes.

Every time one pays for or supports any DRM infected content one is supporting an evil that is many times worse than the vast majority of governments on the planet.