[XMR] Monero Speculation

[celestio]

IMO, These are the two main, most important features for a decentralized cryptocurrency and they both go hand in hand(No centralized anonymity for ex):

Decentralization
Privacy


If Monero can continue to stay ahead of Bitcoin and others in those two fields, it'll be golden.

[kazuki49]

...

There wont be a Bitcoin in 2016
...

It's getting weird over in the Bitcoin camp, but I'm not sure that I agree that there won't be a Bitcoin in 2016.

Then again, I'm not sure how this plays out.  IMO, Bitcoin won't last.  It's the "Ur" of crypto/digital currencies.  It laid the groundwork, but we're beginning to see the cracks in the foundation.  

Monero is a great example of a next generation cryptocurrency, and is a worthy successor.  But Monero too will probably be succeeded by something else.  

I agree with you, I meant there won't be 'a' Bitcoin but two networks cannibalizing each other, so it both can be interpreted as the end of Bitcoin as we know it and the emergence of classic Bitcoin and Gavincoin.

[Melbustus]

...
We may at some point impose a maximum age for outputs to be mixable (at which point they can be removed from the UXTO when spent, just like Bitcoin; to avoid losing untracability you would have to respend the outputs back to yourself prior to the deadline, or allow a wallet to do so automatically).
...

Whoa... Seems to me that would very much break some fundamental use-cases for Monero. People probably want to store some wealth privately, for a potentially long time, without any ongoing effort; eg, print a paper key, toss it in a few safe locations, and forget about it. That's been the case for a lot of people who embraced bitcoin as a store-of-value, and I'd guess it is/will-be similar with Monero. Requiring respends obviously breaks that capability.

[Melbustus]

...
Strident attempts to fix the non-existent blocksize problem is highly likely to result in the current Gavinista coup going hot in the form of a Grand Schism style, all-out dueling blockchain civil war between the 1mb network and 20mb pretender to the throne.

The plan is to have miners use the block version num to signal willingness to accept >1mb blocks, thereby guaranteeing a super-majority of agreement before any substantial number of >1mb blocks are generated. This is highly unlikely to create any condition where there's a "Grand Schism". I understand you enjoy being hyperbolic and all, but still...

[cAPSLOCK]

Interesting.  Bytecoin, Boolberry and Monero all saw a little flurry of buying at around the same time today...  Any other cryptonotes see action?

[TrueCryptonaire]

I am always a little terrified when I hear that in order to succeed, Monero needs also btc to be succeeded.
By investing into XMR the investor is taking a risk on both Monero's success and Bitcoin's success.

Is it really so that Monero cannot stand on her own feet and merit but need the bitcoin for its success?

[generalizethis]

I am always a little terrified when I hear that in order to succeed, Monero needs also btc to be succeeded.
By investing into XMR the investor is taking a risk on both Monero's success and Bitcoin's success.

Is it really so that Monero cannot stand on her own feet and merit but need the bitcoin for its success?

No. Monero's success depends on its usefulness, the community's ability to articulate that usefulness to those currently unaware of Monero and the community's ability to build an ecosystem of products and services designed to maximize Monero's usefulness.

The text books leave this out, but there was a gold strike in California before Sutter's Mill.

[adhitthana]

I agree with you, I meant there won't be 'a' Bitcoin but two networks cannibalizing each other, so it both can be interpreted as the end of Bitcoin as we know it and the emergence of classic Bitcoin and Gavincoin.

I don't follow bitcoin closely ...what is that all about?

[TrueCryptonaire]

I am always a little terrified when I hear that in order to succeed, Monero needs also btc to be succeeded.
By investing into XMR the investor is taking a risk on both Monero's success and Bitcoin's success.

Is it really so that Monero cannot stand on her own feet and merit but need the bitcoin for its success?

No. Monero's success depends on its usefulness, the community's ability to articulate that usefulness to those currently unaware of Monero and the community's ability to build an ecosystem of products and services designed to maximize Monero's usefulness.

The text books leave this out, but there was a gold strike in California before Sutter's Mill.

Yup.
Ideally Monero should stand on its own merits.

I read the statements here: "monero will not rise to ath unless btc rallies" etc.
Why XMR needs btc to rally in order to rise?

[rpietila]

Monero's success depends on its usefulness, the community's ability to articulate that usefulness to those currently unaware of Monero and the community's ability to build an ecosystem of products and services designed to maximize Monero's usefulness.

It has to be noted that before MiG (which is in design still), there is not a single website that is coherently promoting Monero as an investment, a currency, a store of value, or anything that is material to its success marketcapwise.

Or please link if you know of one 

[generalizethis]

Monero's success depends on its usefulness, the community's ability to articulate that usefulness to those currently unaware of Monero and the community's ability to build an ecosystem of products and services designed to maximize Monero's usefulness.

It has to be noted that before MiG (which is in design still), there is not a single website that is coherently promoting Monero as an investment, a currency, a store of value, or anything that is material to its success marketcapwise.

Or please link if you know of one 

This is how i found out:

https://www.reddit.com/r/BitcoinSerious/comments/2eg0r0/whats_the_best_path_for_privacy/

Having an addictive game doesn't hurt either. 

[kazuki49]

Monero's success depends on its usefulness, the community's ability to articulate that usefulness to those currently unaware of Monero and the community's ability to build an ecosystem of products and services designed to maximize Monero's usefulness.

It has to be noted that before MiG (which is in design still), there is not a single website that is coherently promoting Monero as an investment, a currency, a store of value, or anything that is material to its success marketcapwise.

Or please link if you know of one  

This really is a good idea and there isn't anything like that... the official website does a good job as portal for "Monero an open-source project", but its nowhere near the level of information for "Monero a 21th century investment".

I could help translating to some languages.

[rpietila]

Having an addictive game doesn't hurt either.  

While the game is in development, the designer indulges himself in the mysteries of the ancient civilizations:

Just found out that the midpoint of the great chamber of the Kheops Pyramid is situated at such a point (29.9792458° N) that it agrees with the speed of light in vacuum in 9 figure precision (299,792,458 m/s, exact value), corresponding to 3.3 centimeters precision in the placement of the chamber. This is the most astounding coincidence that I have found during my longstanding interest in such. Youtube 1 minute.

It handsomely beats even the values of Pi and e found in Genesis 1:1 and Gospel of John 1:1 in precision. (There is also the well-known 5-digit value of Pi in 1. Kings, quoted from the sceptic site for added credibility among Bible non-believers. This establishes the circumference of the vessel in question in the verse, with 0.5 mm precision given that the diameter was an exact value.)

[vokain]

Risto, have you ever been to the Pyramids?

[rpietila]

Risto, have you ever been to the Pyramids?

Not personally, even reading of them is captivating enough    <- let's continue in another thread though 

[dEBRUYNE]

...
We may at some point impose a maximum age for outputs to be mixable (at which point they can be removed from the UXTO when spent, just like Bitcoin; to avoid losing untracability you would have to respend the outputs back to yourself prior to the deadline, or allow a wallet to do so automatically).
...

Whoa... Seems to me that would very much break some fundamental use-cases for Monero. People probably want to store some wealth privately, for a potentially long time, without any ongoing effort; eg, print a paper key, toss it in a few safe locations, and forget about it. That's been the case for a lot of people who embraced bitcoin as a store-of-value, and I'd guess it is/will-be similar with Monero. Requiring respends obviously breaks that capability.

If the wallet does this automatically for you, the problem is solved right? Check his last sentence. If you don't have to do anything yourself nor access the wallet, this argument can be debunked in my opinion. Smooth, do you have any comment on this perhaps?

[binaryFate]

...
We may at some point impose a maximum age for outputs to be mixable (at which point they can be removed from the UXTO when spent, just like Bitcoin; to avoid losing untracability you would have to respend the outputs back to yourself prior to the deadline, or allow a wallet to do so automatically).
...

Whoa... Seems to me that would very much break some fundamental use-cases for Monero. People probably want to store some wealth privately, for a potentially long time, without any ongoing effort; eg, print a paper key, toss it in a few safe locations, and forget about it. That's been the case for a lot of people who embraced bitcoin as a store-of-value, and I'd guess it is/will-be similar with Monero. Requiring respends obviously breaks that capability.

If the wallet does this automatically for you, the problem is solved right? Check his last sentence. If you don't have to do anything yourself nor access the wallet, this argument can be debunked in my opinion. Smooth, do you have any comment on this perhaps?

Cannot work if funds are not in a "wallet", aka a software that is at least periodically able to run and do nothing. If you have something completely offline, say a paper wallet or a brain wallet, it cannot update anything.
Maybe additional criteria could be applied to the unspents together with the age, in order to avoid this kind of issue?

[elrippo]

Having an addictive game doesn't hurt either.  

While the game is in development, the designer indulges himself in the mysteries of the ancient civilizations:

Just found out that the midpoint of the great chamber of the Kheops Pyramid is situated at such a point (29.9792458° N) that it agrees with the speed of light in vacuum in 9 figure precision (299,792,458 m/s, exact value), corresponding to 3.3 centimeters precision in the placement of the chamber. This is the most astounding coincidence that I have found during my longstanding interest in such. Youtube 1 minute.

It handsomely beats even the values of Pi and e found in Genesis 1:1 and Gospel of John 1:1 in precision. (There is also the well-known 5-digit value of Pi in 1. Kings, quoted from the sceptic site for added credibility among Bible non-believers. This establishes the circumference of the vessel in question in the verse, with 0.5 mm precision given that the diameter was an exact value.)

I think you should watch this -> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnXkgxFC30s
I hope you speak some german Risto, because this is a documentary by mathematitians and physichians, not by geologists 

I love that guy, an aeronautic engineer 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aFpG4fTiz1g
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7Hu7oOVvHk

Back to TOPIC 

[kazuki49]

I agree with you, I meant there won't be 'a' Bitcoin but two networks cannibalizing each other, so it both can be interpreted as the end of Bitcoin as we know it and the emergence of classic Bitcoin and Gavincoin.

I don't follow bitcoin closely ...what is that all about?

this: https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/37vg8y/is_the_blockstream_company_the_reason_why_4_core/crqbd78

tl;dr Gavin went nuts and want to abandon the current core bitcoin in favor of an obscure build that will allow his 20m blocks, and he is using his power to make sure everyone will follow him.

[iCEBREAKER]

Bitcoin Core (meaning the implementation as opposed to the Bitcoin protocol, which has a UXTO set but doesn't require processing it in any particular way) does some special thing with the UXTO which I haven't studied specifically so I can't really comment.

Cryptonote doesn't have a UXTO since any output can be spent any number of times. As such all outputs are equal, and there is no special UXTO collection to become overgrown.

In the original cryptonote implementation they were all stored in memory which is obviously absurd. Monero stores them in a database which means they will need to be accessed from a disk, but any efficient database should be able to do these simple lookups efficiently other than the physical access time. Once Monero becomes heavily used that will likely require an SSD, but it seems with 10 TB SSDs possibly arriving within the next year or so the days of anything non-SSD for general purpose computing are likely numbered. Magnetic disks are the new magtape.

We may at some point impose a maximum age for outputs to be mixable (at which point they can be removed from the UXTO when spent, just like Bitcoin; to avoid losing untracability you would have to respend the outputs back to yourself prior to the deadline, or allow a wallet to do so automatically). That was considered for MRL-0004 but didn't quite make the cut because of some unresolved complications. That would allow nodes to operate with more limited storage, the way Bitcoin currently does. That's somewhat dangerous though (with both protocols) since there is nothing to ensure that a sufficient number of full archive nodes exist or don't become overloaded. At some point it may then become impossible or nearly impossible for new participants to do a full sync. So more work is needed there too (again with both protocols).

This is great!  "No UXTO problem" is a feature important enough to be highlighted in the OP and investor/tech presentations.

Monero is even more awesome than I thought.  Thanks smooth!