Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network

[kirby9058]

the coin is no good to him/her/them so it us just stupid to keep it

EDIT, the guy who said he got dumped on what happens his coins?

you are euzen who was selling 500k tokens below market price
i sold you this account elliwilli and now you are pretending to be a honest user
i can give proof if someone wants

shame on you man  

[DecentralizeEconomics]

Bittrex not willing to cooperate and rollback the trades?  Don't trade there..

I will second that. And somehow the crap keeps piling up on Bittrex. Made so many bad experiences over there, I am fed up.

Sorry, but we are an exchange and did exactly what we are designed to do.  It is not our fault that someone sold legitimate coins here that you want to invalidate.  Do as you please, but I'm not going to do things that are detrimental to our system and users.

richie@bittrex

Well, I guess that's one opinion on the situation, but I'll wager to say that the majority of honest individuals don't view stolen coins as "legitimate coins".

[honesthodler]

the coin is no good to him/her/them so it us just stupid to keep it

EDIT, the guy who said he got dumped on what happens his coins?

you are euzen who was selling 500k tokens below market price
i sold you this account elliwilli and now you are pretending to be a honest user
i can give proof if someone wants

shame on you man 

lurk of this sub for quite some time and also holder of agoras token, but have to agree with user kirby9058. His account activity looks fishy. Take some time and look at his post history;  Trying to lend 10btc with an altcoin @34006 as collateral. Account was inactive from nov. 2015, that person wrote with English tongue, this guy is not.

EDIT: fixed broken link

[BoscoMurray]

i suggest we first come up with a method that prevents loss to all buyers. then, if we can do some cosmic level justice, that'd be great, and that's what tau is about. still preventing loss is more important than preventing profit.

at any case if it'll be decided to pay the bitcoins back to the buyers of the 500K, i'll pay that.
problem is we don't know who are they all, while we cannot discriminate between them.

Bittrex could give you a list of addresses that the coins are withdrawn to, and the average price those people paid.

Those users could send their Agoras to a burn address that you control. When you receive them, confirm they do actually come from said address, and pay them their BTC in return.

Maybe a little work for Bittrex and you - in fact, I don't know if this is even possible. Just an idea.

[lordoliver]

I thought about it again.
I try to summarize the numbers (please correct me, if something is wrong):
42.0M Tokens
05.0M IPO sold Tokens
09.5M stolen Tokens but curently not sellable
00.5M stolen Tokens dumped at lower price and are eligible for a later dump below IPO price.

So we see that the guy sold about 10% of the IPO tokens. So ohad said he would give 10% more coins to compensate it.
But even if ohad managed to distinuish the coins and gave everyone else 10% more new tokens, it would still look like this:
42.0M Tokens
05.5M IPO sold Tokens
00.5M stolen Tokens sold at lower price and are eligible for a later dump below IPO price.

so the stolen coins selling percentage shrank 1%... there is nearly no difference...
If BITTREX does not manage to rollback the trades. The only reasonable possiblity is to buy the coins somehow back.

[Pofick]

What should I do with my coins on bittrex to be fine?

[rocanonz]

It must be in the interest of all the legitimate buyers to come together to a common conclusion ASAP.
The bank argument vs. crypto doesn't hold up. Even in crypto-space, means to do justice must be found.

If you buy a stolen car and you are found, are you still entitled to own the car or you should return the property and be compensated?

[BoscoMurray]

What should I do with my coins on bittrex to be fine?

Provided that you did not buy your coins from the thief who dumped them at a low price, you don't need to do anything. You will automatically be allocated your fair and correct share of new tokens (I think).

It is only those people who had low priced buy orders and inadvertently bought from the thief who need concern themselves with what might happen to their coins. Although, it is a concern to us all, since it affects the value of our legitimate holdings.

[ohad]

i suggest we first come up with a method that prevents loss to all buyers. then, if we can do some cosmic level justice, that'd be great, and that's what tau is about. still preventing loss is more important than preventing profit.

at any case if it'll be decided to pay the bitcoins back to the buyers of the 500K, i'll pay that.
problem is we don't know who are they all, while we cannot discriminate between them.

Bittrex could give you a list of addresses that the coins are withdrawn to, and the average price those people paid.

Those users could send their Agoras to a burn address that you control. When you receive them, confirm they do actually come from said address, and pay them their BTC in return.

Maybe a little work for Bittrex and you - in fact, I don't know if this is even possible. Just an idea.

bittrex are regulated in the USA (toughest regulation). so they really cant do anything or even tell us what they can do.
the current situation is that bittrex won't revert the trades, and only one buyer from the buyers who bought the 500K is known.

[BoscoMurray]

i suggest we first come up with a method that prevents loss to all buyers. then, if we can do some cosmic level justice, that'd be great, and that's what tau is about. still preventing loss is more important than preventing profit.

at any case if it'll be decided to pay the bitcoins back to the buyers of the 500K, i'll pay that.
problem is we don't know who are they all, while we cannot discriminate between them.

Bittrex could give you a list of addresses that the coins are withdrawn to, and the average price those people paid.

Those users could send their Agoras to a burn address that you control. When you receive them, confirm they do actually come from said address, and pay them their BTC in return.

Maybe a little work for Bittrex and you - in fact, I don't know if this is even possible. Just an idea.

bittrex are regulated in the USA (toughest regulation). so they really cant do anything or even tell us what they can do.
the current situation is that bittrex won't revert the trades, and only one buyer from the buyers who bought the 500K is known.

Then I think the only thing that can be done is to distribute new tokens, 1 for 1, except the 20.5M.

Buying back the 500k from honest individuals may seem like a reasonable effort too, but if you would be using BTC gained from the ICO/IPO (or whatever this is), then is that really worthwhile? Taking money out the the development pot is possibly worse than diluting the legitimate coin supply... I'm only guessing here at your source of BTC for the buy back.

[ohad]

Buying back the 500k from honest individuals may seem like a reasonable effort too, but if you would be using BTC gained from the ICO/IPO (or whatever this is), then is that really worthwhile? Taking money out the the development pot is possibly worse than diluting the legitimate coin supply... I'm only guessing here at your source of BTC for the buy back.

we don't even know who the buyers are except one, so as for now buying them back is simply impossible due to lack of information. and yes this comes from the sales, no other source and it's the project's best interest to follow the buyer's decisions, and the amount is not huge.

[ohad]

midnight GMT is too soon as i see people trying to schedule discussions and the time is running till then. let's postpone it in another 24 hours to the next midnight GMT

[klosure]

Some update on the situation.

We have been investigating the identity of the scammer over the last couple of days. Luckily, he appears to be an amateur who thinks he is safe going through Tor but doesn't know how to set up his routing table properly to have out-of-band traffic route transparently over Tor. He is also suprizingly naive and fell for the obvious click bait that Ohad put in his latest email, thanks to which we now have a full packet dump and IDS traces of his multiple failed attempts at fetching an imaginary "final_proposal_v2" file that Ohad convinced him was waiting for him on Tauchain's server, complete with misrouted DNS queries, unobfuscated http headers, and a whole bunch of system finger prints. We also have his session info at TrustWave and TrendMicro (which he doesn't know how to configure properly either it seems), and plenty of gmail endorsed email proofs of this fraud.

As if that wasn't enough, as some have already noticed he has also been careless about managing his sock puppet accounts and keeps making the same grammatical faults (are been, is been, was been...), using the same broken idioms everywhere, and having his accounts support each other's fishy claims. We have been able to correlate him with a good bunch of Bitcointalk and social media accounts with a high degree of confidence, which means that we have a lot more charges to put against him when this affair goes to court. Oh and his ledger trails are laughably easy to track and nicely matching with addresses used by his sock puppets.

At this point we are confident that we have plenty enough material to justify engaging legal action against him. We are still discussing about what course to pursue on the matter. I'll be posting on the progress.

In the mean time and until further notice, we should still assume that the funds are gone and we will need to address quickly the issue of reissuing the assets, decide how to absorb the loss, and resume trading. Let's have this discussion going and come to an agreement.

[ohad]

thanks klosure!

on a different topic: i was speaking with Dor and he raised the possibility to divide all tokens among all synereo's (amp) holders, either current holders or in their upcoming crowdsale, as it will increase interest in our project. what do you people think?

[jibble]

thanks klosure!

on a different topic: i was speaking with Dor and he raised the possibility to divide all tokens among all synereo's (amp) holders, either current holders or in their upcoming crowdsale, as it will increase interest in our project. what do you people think?

I honestly think that is a terribly idea .

It will increase interest in free money and dumping , if they are being given away, a large majority wont care about the project

[klosure]

thanks klosure!

on a different topic: i was speaking with Dor and he raised the possibility to divide all tokens among all synereo's (amp) holders, either current holders or in their upcoming crowdsale, as it will increase interest in our project. what do you people think?

Well, if Synereo will agree to sharedrop an equivalent amount of AMP on Agora holders, I guess that could be a very workable deal as far as I'm concerned!

Actually, and although this has nothing to do with the subject at hand, I'm increasingly convinced that Tau would be an ideal plateform for Synereo. Social networks are heavily reliant on linked data, semantic models and logical inference which are core constituants of Tau's DNA. Synereo also seems to be leaning more and more toward a functional paradigm. I even had a doubt when reading this conversation where Lucius Greg Meredith lectures Vitalik Butterin about the brokenness of Ethereum's assumption that a max gaz cost can practically be computed for random turing complete contracts that may call other contracts in a possibly infinite recursion. I was almost expecting that Greg was going to mention Tau and MLTT. But instead he mentionned Special-K and Pi-calculus. Haven't dug it, but from the outset it does seem that Special-K would be a good fit in Tau.

Now from a functional perspective, if we add Agora to the mix, the synergies are becoming mind blowing. Doing logical inference and large scale principal component analysis on a massive dataset not only is a good application of Tau, but also requires large amount of distributed computational power which Zennet is all about. The typical use case shown in Synereo's marketing materials is a social network that allows professionals to rate each other, list their services and hire other professionals. Again something that is of a troubling complementarity with Agora as a job market where the focus is on the commoditization of work as a form of provable computation, and its pricing.

I'm probably getting a bit ahead of myself, but I do get this bizarre gut feeling that Zennet, Synereo and Agora would be an explosive combination, and a perfect fit for Tau. It's also a remarkable coincidence that both projects are based in Israel and that the developers appear to know each other.

Edit: typos

[BoscoMurray]

Nice work dude

[honesthodler]

Some update on the situation.

Sir, you are a boss!

[mr.coinzy]

I also think that no coins should be given freely to anyone (very bad idea), in such case the coins will be dumped as soon as possible, and hurt the project and the market.
One of the other solutions must be followed instead. I believe that the best option at the moment is to purchase the coins back at cost + giving a limited compensation to the seller returning the coins for his willingness to cooperate.

[ohad]

as things stand now, preventing loss is most important.
two cases are theoretically possible to be actually called losses: dilution of existing buyers, and buyers of the 500K not getting the new token.
under the primum non nocere principle (first do no harm), the default is to fully credit the 500K holders, and give the current holders more tokens so they won't turn out diluted.