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Author Topic: Statement about the suspect of recent Bitcoinica hack  (Read 135950 times)
defxor
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July 29, 2012, 07:36:17 PM
 #441

Wouldn't it be rational to claim that Zhou Tong is one person, and Chen Jinghai is another?

There's no reason whatsoever to involve a second person called "Chen" in anything. The simplest explanation that fits all the known facts (including the LR-selling you, just like Zhou, seem to skip over) requires only ... Zhou.

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augustocroppo
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July 29, 2012, 08:18:49 PM
 #442

Please, be rational.

Of course...

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=95795.msg1062656#msg1062656


Currently I can recover at most 20,000 BTC and $140,000 from Chen Jianhai.

(...)

AFAIK he used Blockchain's mixing service, but we don't expect the fees to be returned because it's impossible to identify the funds anyway. (Also Blockchain has offered a 0.5% bonus for those people who facilitated the laundering.)

The average price he sold at should be around $7.2, including the exchanging fees. At this price point we are short $42,000. I'll see if it's possible to get this from Chen Jianhai, but quite unlikely. I doubt the effectiveness of Chinese police as well, because he's very likely to have "Guanxi" to deal with his financial activities (which I can't decide whether legal or not). In any case, he has been acting in a very naive way and I assume he still has freedom today because of his guanxi, not technical sophistication.

(...)
dancingnancy
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July 29, 2012, 08:54:18 PM
 #443

Please, be rational.

Of course...

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=95795.msg1062656#msg1062656


Currently I can recover at most 20,000 BTC and $140,000 from Chen Jianhai.

(...)

AFAIK he used Blockchain's mixing service, but we don't expect the fees to be returned because it's impossible to identify the funds anyway. (Also Blockchain has offered a 0.5% bonus for those people who facilitated the laundering.)

The average price he sold at should be around $7.2, including the exchanging fees. At this price point we are short $42,000. I'll see if it's possible to get this from Chen Jianhai, but quite unlikely. I doubt the effectiveness of Chinese police as well, because he's very likely to have "Guanxi" to deal with his financial activities (which I can't decide whether legal or not). In any case, he has been acting in a very naive way and I assume he still has freedom today because of his guanxi, not technical sophistication.

(...)

What you are saying is not out of the realm of possibilities.

Does it matter at this point, though?  At least for us Bitcoinica users..
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July 29, 2012, 09:13:40 PM
 #444

Please, be rational.

Of course...

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=95795.msg1062656#msg1062656


Currently I can recover at most 20,000 BTC and $140,000 from Chen Jianhai.

(...)

AFAIK he used Blockchain's mixing service, but we don't expect the fees to be returned because it's impossible to identify the funds anyway. (Also Blockchain has offered a 0.5% bonus for those people who facilitated the laundering.)

The average price he sold at should be around $7.2, including the exchanging fees. At this price point we are short $42,000. I'll see if it's possible to get this from Chen Jianhai, but quite unlikely. I doubt the effectiveness of Chinese police as well, because he's very likely to have "Guanxi" to deal with his financial activities (which I can't decide whether legal or not). In any case, he has been acting in a very naive way and I assume he still has freedom today because of his guanxi, not technical sophistication.

(...)

"We" means community?

Who is short $42,000? The thief is never "short" of any money. It must be Bitcoinica customers.

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July 29, 2012, 09:16:43 PM
 #445

"We" means community?

Who is short $42,000? The thief is never "short" of any money. It must be Bitcoinica customers.

Do you think this community is going to forget that you spent $42,000 of their money?  I would suggest (not that you follow them) that you sell some of your assets and pay it back in FULL.

Edit:  You actually spent more than $42k on your trips and whatever, but you are lucky the price of bitcoins has climbed so much...

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July 29, 2012, 09:18:03 PM
 #446

Just gonna bump this.

This has yet to be addressed by Zhou.

There is no reason to suspect otherwise.

But there is: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=95738.msg1055632#msg1055632

Why was Zhou, through his own QQ-account, selling LR from the LR-account Zhou said "the hacker" created?

Occam's razor.

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July 29, 2012, 09:18:40 PM
 #447

There is no reason to suspect otherwise.

But there is: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=95738.msg1055632#msg1055632

Why was Zhou, through his own QQ-account, selling LR from the LR-account Zhou said "the hacker" created?

Occam's razor.


1. Look at the amount. I said I deal in upwards of $10,000, why would I sent $300+? I don't have to do that transaction even if I'm trying to launder money.

2. There's a "Private Payment" feature at Liberty Reserve, and it costs only $0.75. Am I that silly to save $0.75 and reveal the identity? At least I should use different accounts right?

It doesn't fit in my thinking at all. So the screenshot is either fake, or taken by someone who has actually dealt with Chen Jianhai.

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July 29, 2012, 09:20:02 PM
 #448

It doesn't fit in my thinking at all. So the screenshot is either fake, or taken by someone who has actually dealt with Chen Jianhai.

And the story continues...

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July 29, 2012, 09:25:08 PM
 #449

Exactly. The thief must have been someone who was not interested in Bitcoin. Zhou is likely not that person.

Fall of bitcoinica won't the fall of bitcoin. The market didn't even pay attention.



If Zhou is innocent the court will clear him.
You don't understand. Why else would the thief sell easy-to-launder BTC? Evidently, they are of little value to him. We know that Zhou Tong considers BTC valuable, and wouldn't be stupid enough to sell the ones he stole. Therefore, Zhou did not steal them.

This is a classic framing. There is no reason to suspect otherwise.

It's extremely difficult to value that which you stole! Easy come, easy go.
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July 29, 2012, 09:25:50 PM
 #450

I deal in upwards of $10,000

Must be nice Mr. Big Spender.  You also steal in amounts above that.
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July 29, 2012, 09:26:22 PM
 #451

And the story continues...
The peter griffin avatar suits you really well.

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July 29, 2012, 09:28:08 PM
 #452

And the story continues...
The peter griffin avatar suits you really well.

Thanks!  I do like licking the boobies!  Smiley

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July 29, 2012, 09:31:30 PM
 #453

Quote
Untitled
BY: A GUEST ON JUL 27TH, 2012  |  SYNTAX: NONE  |  SIZE: 0.03 KB  |  HITS: 12  |  EXPIRES: NEVER
DOWNLOAD  |  RAW  |  EMBED  |  REPORT ABUSE

    
1FqqBZnemCrcCDbz57Nk7LHLCN42hCHXEV
create a new version of this paste RAW Paste Data

http://pastebin.com/YfTKKGvj

I have sent 15,000 BTC to an address provided by Patrick Murck.

He or one of his clients will later confirm the receipt of the funds and also the escrow/representation relationship.


Status: 4/unconfirmed, broadcast through 8 nodes
Date: 29/07/12 19:54
To: 1FqqBZnemCrcCDbz57Nk7LHLCN42hCHXEV
Debit: -15000.00 BTC
Net amount: -15000.00 BTC
Transaction ID: b87922d693b3d3b66da385592a07147cf0b8f31f78057ebb212eb60745b58cf9

Quote
Summary
Size   1257 (bytes)
Received Time   2012-07-29 09:54:37
Included in blocks   191319 (2012-07-29 10:13:56 +19 minutes)
Confirmations:   93 confirmations
Relayed by ip   91.121.66.59 (whois)

http://blockchain.info/tx-index/13806782/b87922d693b3d3b66da385592a07147cf0b8f31f78057ebb212eb60745b58cf9


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July 29, 2012, 09:49:35 PM
 #454

The funds were sent to the Bitcoin address as requested: http://blockchain.info/address/1FqqBZnemCrcCDbz57Nk7LHLCN42hCHXEV.

Thank you Zhou for your cooperation.

I was asked by some of the creditors and interest holders in Bitcoinica, LP to broker this transaction. Steps are being taken to safely transfer the funds to Bitcoinica, LP so they may be distributed in a fair and expeditious manner to claimants.

Thank you,
Patrick Murck
Principal | Engage Legal PLLC

The address presumably indicated by Patrick Murck was used twice before receive the 15,000 BTC. This indicate the address was not produced exclusively to receive the "stolen funds".

Quote
3023856a550ebb4e9b79a5e80af926f608fddee0749648e70ee3a01bc0f4592c 2012-07-29 07:31:43

14cwNLGkm5PWj5ghdwxs8J84VuryU7h5tq

12FWKX4v6auTnzN1xmxji8SdmtcEC5QdCx

    1FqqBZnemCrcCDbz57Nk7LHLCN42hCHXEV

6.461 BTC

4f47dcd9db5518dc829b9fb6ab0f99f33e54032edc4b508e0deb1f702dcb36b4 2012-07-27 20:41:31

1MSvjiRBFd4WgJusnQWZoyxjfcxbRZwjtE

    1FqqBZnemCrcCDbz57Nk7LHLCN42hCHXEV

0.1 BTC

http://blockchain.info/address/1FqqBZnemCrcCDbz57Nk7LHLCN42hCHXEV
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July 29, 2012, 10:06:49 PM
 #455

The funds were sent to the Bitcoin address as requested: http://blockchain.info/address/1FqqBZnemCrcCDbz57Nk7LHLCN42hCHXEV.

Thank you Zhou for your cooperation.

I was asked by some of the creditors and interest holders in Bitcoinica, LP to broker this transaction. Steps are being taken to safely transfer the funds to Bitcoinica, LP so they may be distributed in a fair and expeditious manner to claimants.

Thank you,
Patrick Murck
Principal | Engage Legal PLLC

The address presumably indicated by Patrick Murck was used twice before receive the 15,000 BTC. This indicate the address was not produced exclusively to receive the "stolen funds".

Quote
3023856a550ebb4e9b79a5e80af926f608fddee0749648e70ee3a01bc0f4592c 2012-07-29 07:31:43

14cwNLGkm5PWj5ghdwxs8J84VuryU7h5tq

12FWKX4v6auTnzN1xmxji8SdmtcEC5QdCx

    1FqqBZnemCrcCDbz57Nk7LHLCN42hCHXEV

6.461 BTC

4f47dcd9db5518dc829b9fb6ab0f99f33e54032edc4b508e0deb1f702dcb36b4 2012-07-27 20:41:31

1MSvjiRBFd4WgJusnQWZoyxjfcxbRZwjtE

    1FqqBZnemCrcCDbz57Nk7LHLCN42hCHXEV

0.1 BTC

http://blockchain.info/address/1FqqBZnemCrcCDbz57Nk7LHLCN42hCHXEV

and...

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defxor
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July 29, 2012, 10:31:07 PM
 #456

It doesn't fit in my thinking at all. So the screenshot is either fake, or taken by someone who has actually dealt with Chen Jianhai.

Occam's Razor says that the simplest explanation is neither that someone, for no reason, created a screenshot where your QQ-account would start selling LR that when the transactions were made turned out to come from the LR account you yourself stated that the hacker created. Nor is the simplest explanation that you now all of a sudden would start to claim that "Chen" has hacked your QQ account to do deals.

The simplest explanation is that you didn't expect that someone who bought LR from you, the transactions you've so far claimed are completely unrelated and "for a friend", would match up the LR account to information released much later by aurumxchange.

* The Liberty Reserve account used by the hacker is U9236056.

The $40,000 I exchanged at AurumXchange was indeed from a friend. Later I can also post proof that I exchanged another $30,000 at other exchanges during the same period. The total amount far exceeds the stolen amount claimed in the OP. My own Liberty Reserve account number is U7097615.

The hacker registered a Liberty Reserve account U9236056 at Jul 12, 2012 9:42 PM.

vs

I am the owner of www.cnbtcnews.com. I introduce bitcoin to chinese people.
The evidence is from one person of my qq group.
zhoutong sell LR, and he buy LR from zhoutong.

How does this person know for sure Zhou Thong was behind U9236056?

He buy LR from zhoutong ,zhoutong show the LR account and the total fund is $23439.57.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudologia_fantastica

Select quotes:

Quote
The stories told are not entirely improbable and often have some element of truth. They are not a manifestation of delusion or some broader type of psychosis: upon confrontation, the teller can admit them to be untrue, even if unwillingly.

Quote
The stories told tend toward presenting the liar favorably. For example, the person might be presented as being fantastically brave, knowing or being related to many famous people.

Quote
There are many consequences of being a pathological liar. Due to lack of trust, most pathological liars' relationships and friendships fail. If the disease continues to progress, lying could become so severe as to cause legal problems, including but not limited to fraud.
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July 29, 2012, 10:38:03 PM
 #457


The simplest explanation is that you didn't expect that someone who bought LR from you, the transactions you've so far claimed are completely unrelated and "for a friend", would match up the LR account to information released much later by aurumxchange.


So, I have done a deal "for a friend" on AurumXchange using my own account.

And I have also done a deal "for a friend" on QQ using a friend's account?

Both happened before I had any clue of the investigation.

I did the deals, but all in much larger amounts with my own account.

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July 29, 2012, 10:39:09 PM
 #458

Well as far as I'm concerned there's still zero evidence that thus Chen person even exists.    And now, just to add to the convenience, Zhou is refunding the USD from his own accounts.

Look, if in the future this mystery Chen person is actually arrested for this then I'll happily apologise to Zhou for doubting him, but as things stand now I find that extremely unlikely to happen.  

Is it possible that Zhou is telling the truth, sure, but from all the evidence presented thus far that just simply isn't the likely scenario I'm afraid.    

If all this fantastical stuff actually IS true then the way its gone down is extremely unfortunate for Zhou, as most of the evidence hes posting to exonerate himself just makes him look more guilty.

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July 29, 2012, 10:48:28 PM
 #459

It doesn't fit in my thinking at all. So the screenshot is either fake, or taken by someone who has actually dealt with Chen Jianhai.

Occam's Razor says that

Anyone using that as a postulate in a theorem clearly doesn't actually 'get' Occam's Razor.

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July 29, 2012, 11:04:23 PM
 #460

It doesn't fit in my thinking at all. So the screenshot is either fake, or taken by someone who has actually dealt with Chen Jianhai.

Occam's Razor says that

Anyone using that as a postulate in a theorem clearly doesn't actually 'get' Occam's Razor.

Occam's Razor from wiki:

Quote
Overview

The principle is often incorrectly summarized as "other things being equal, a simpler explanation is better than a more complex one." In practice, the application of the principle often shifts the burden of proof in a discussion.[a] The razor asserts that one should proceed to simpler theories until simplicity can be traded for greater explanatory power. The simplest available theory need not be most accurate. Philosophers point out also that the exact meaning of simplest may be nuanced.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor
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