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Author Topic: Statement about the suspect of recent Bitcoinica hack  (Read 124439 times)
bittenbob
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August 01, 2012, 01:15:25 AM
 #761

Hi Zhou,

I think there was one question that you didn't answer from one of my earlier emails. You said you could recover 20k BTC and to date have recovered 15k BTC. Are you still able to recover the other 5k BTC?
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August 01, 2012, 01:18:45 AM
 #762

Hi Zhou,

I think there was one question that you didn't answer from one of my earlier emails. You said you could recover 20k BTC and to date have recovered 15k BTC. Are you still able to recover the other 5k BTC?
+1

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August 01, 2012, 01:24:12 AM
 #763


So, you've had another day to think of another excuse, and you come here thinking we're going to believe you??

I would have had more respect for you if you had just admitted you stole the money and were returning it to avoid jail time.

So a fact becomes "excuse". And you're not believing it without reading.

And people should do things for "respect", not for truths.

You are very pragmatic and I like it. I respect you now, happy?

Returning the money will not avoid jail time. However it might reduce the amount of time spent. Judges seems to like remorse. However that is not what has been expressed :/



Why would he get jail time? Was there a crime committed? What crime was that? Which country was it committed in? Who committed it? I'm missing some details here...

You're missing a lot more than some details...

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August 01, 2012, 01:35:08 AM
 #764


So, you've had another day to think of another excuse, and you come here thinking we're going to believe you??

I would have had more respect for you if you had just admitted you stole the money and were returning it to avoid jail time.

So a fact becomes "excuse". And you're not believing it without reading.

And people should do things for "respect", not for truths.

You are very pragmatic and I like it. I respect you now, happy?

Returning the money will not avoid jail time. However it might reduce the amount of time spent. Judges seems to like remorse. However that is not what has been expressed :/



Why would he get jail time? Was there a crime committed? What crime was that? Which country was it committed in? Who committed it? I'm missing some details here...

You're missing a lot more than some details...

Would you mind helping me understand? Can you answer my questions above or are you also completely in the dark? I'll take your lack of response to each question above as a sign that you also do not know the answer to the questions and thank you anyway for your time.

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August 01, 2012, 01:44:57 AM
 #765

Hi Zhou,

I think there was one question that you didn't answer from one of my earlier emails. You said you could recover 20k BTC and to date have recovered 15k BTC. Are you still able to recover the other 5k BTC?

Yes. I'm recovering the first 15k BTC to show "good faith" and "co-operation". The remaining will be recovered after all the fiat has been recovered. The fiat money is the most legally sensitive part of this deal, and it should have taken place before Bitcoin.

Founder of NameTerrific (https://www.nameterrific.com/). Co-founder of CoinJar (https://coinjar.io/)

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August 01, 2012, 01:50:42 AM
 #766

@ZHOU What is the status on the FIAT-Recovery?

Waiting for Patrick Murck's instruction and to my best knowledge, he is waiting for Bitcoinica's instruction.

I can't start recovery of the funds before I'm told "OK" by either party. In case Patrick Murck doesn't want to hold the stolen funds, I can be in trouble if I have asked Chen Jianhai to transfer the funds "for the purpose of recovery".

I'll co-operate to any legal actions to my best ability. Until someone (Patrick Murck or Bitcoinica) complains publicly, you should assume that I'm doing my best.

Since I assume that you do your best, I also assume you will transfer all recovered funds (140.000) and not retain anything to cover your friend until this AurumXchange issue is solved. Am I right?

That was just a proposal, or you can say it's a way to make AurumXchange comfortable of not freezing the funds. I will be sure to take legal advice before I do that.

By the way, a freezing order by court in Dominica is only effective for 7 days unless a money laundering crime is charged within 7 days. Also divulging any information about an ongoing AML investigation is a criminal offence, punishable with up to $250,000 in fines and 10 years of inprisonment. (The inprisonment for money laundering itself is up to 7 years.)

Reference: Dominican Money Laundering Prevention Act (2000)

This means that AurumXchange must have received an order by a more superior party than court to have frozen the funds for more than 7 days, and/or an AML investigation has not formally taken place.

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August 01, 2012, 01:53:09 AM
 #767

@AurumXchange: Is sufficient Information provided to drop money laundering investigations?[/b]

I will let you draw your own conclusions:

The $40,000 I exchanged at AurumXchange was indeed from a friend.

I use my own Liberty Reserve account for all my own transactions, including those on behalf of my friend.

I'll try to ask my friend if he's okay with publicizing the related transactions, or I can wait until the investigation is concluded (or the real hacker being found).

So, I have done a deal "for a friend" on AurumXchange using my own account.

Unfortunately, my friend (the source of legitimate LR funds) does not wish to be involved in this disaster because he is supposed to be irrelevant. He's fine with providing information to the authorities, but definitely not to the Bitcoin community after he has read this thread.

At this time, certain things have been put in motion and our attorneys advice us to refrain from answering further questions, or making any further statements regarding this issue on a public forum.

Zhou: Please provide KYC/AML compliance information as per our instructions, and have your attorney contact us. If you believe we are at fault by holding the funds in question, you are well within your rights of filling a lawsuit against our company.

Thank you
Roberto


The last private communication I have received from you is "Do you want the address of our company?", I said yes.

There's no company name, no registration details, no telephone number and no address on your website.

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August 01, 2012, 01:55:23 AM
 #768

Public clarification #1

"Transfer for a friend" is not "third-party transfer" and is not "money laundering".

I was not merely doing a simple transfer, I was doing a business with this friend by giving him preferential foreign exchange rates compared to his banks, for a return of a small commission.

The supposed procedure:

Friend's LR                ->   My LR (my revenue to perform the service)
My LR                      ->   My USD bank account (my own exchange activity through AurumXchange, et al.)
My USD bank account ->   X (my own exchange activity for forex)
X                            ->   My SGD bank account (my own withdrawal in another currency)
My SGD bank account ->   Friend's SGD bank account (my cost to perform the service)

Only the first and last part are related to both my friend and me. It's a common business procedure for all kinds of legitimate trades, and the procedure itself is completely legal.

The suspicion comes from a Bitcoinica hack which happens to involve an email address that I used for testing purpose on mtgox.com, and a transfer on AurumXchange at similar timeframe with an amount of similar order of magnitude. However, "third-party transfer" is strictly defined to be using an exchange service as an intermediary between two different accounts not controlled by the same person.

For example,

My LR -> AurumXchange
AurumXchange -> Friend's bank account

This is third party transfer, and it should trigger an AML investigation immediately.

A common use of third-party transfer is scamming:

Trader A: I want to buy some Bitcoins
Trader B: Sure, send the funds to *** (AurumXchange's bank account), and make sure you have transaction reference XXX
Trader A: Done
Trader B gets a Mt. Gox code from AurumXchange, and deposits into an unverified Mt. Gox account, and cash out Bitcoins.
Trader B never pays Trader A anything.
Trader A: You are a scammer! I'm reporting to the police with your bank account.
AurumXchange will be investigated, and Trader B may never appear again.

This IS the real (third-party transfer == money laundering) you're talking about.

EDIT:

I only post public clarification when too many people are questioning the same thing when I deem to be factually wrong and worth a public clarification. You should continue contacting me at bitcoin@zhoutong.com for other clarifications or explanations. You shouldn't expect me to read/reply every single post in this thread.

Laundering = conceal the origin of funds. this is exactly what you try to do by covering your "friend"
(I can understand that you protect him from the public but with AurumXchange you should put your cards on the table)
After you stated publicly that you are acting for a third party in this transaction ergo not acting on your behalf, AurumXchange was responsible to prove that everything is legitimate. Your friend could have used an unknown source to hand the funds over to you, just to receive them in his own account. In this scenario you would have been an intermediary of money laundering. The sole thing you have to do is provide all information concerning this transaction to AurumXchange to prove it is legitimate. If you are doing your best you should provide this information quickly.

Your scenario:
If you run an exchange business you would probably need a licence in which case you as intermediary are responsible of supervising  AML-regulations. I doubt you have this kind of business and guess it is a theoretical construction to serve your cause.

I openly boycott the Bitcoinica Consultancy team or Intersango: Donald Norman, Patrick Strateman and Amir Taaki
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August 01, 2012, 02:01:36 AM
 #769


By the way, a freezing order by court in Dominica is only effective for 7 days unless a money laundering crime is charged within 7 days. Also divulging any information about an ongoing AML investigation is a criminal offence, punishable with up to $250,000 in fines and 10 years of inprisonment. (The inprisonment for money laundering itself is up to 7 years.)

Reference: Dominican Money Laundering Prevention Act (2000)

This means that AurumXchange must have received an order by a more superior party than court to have frozen the funds for more than 7 days, and/or an AML investigation has not formally taken place.


If you have nothing to fear and tell the truth, why are you fighting so strongly against providing this little AML compliance info?
Do your best and send it to them! -> Problem solved!

I openly boycott the Bitcoinica Consultancy team or Intersango: Donald Norman, Patrick Strateman and Amir Taaki
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August 01, 2012, 02:01:43 AM
 #770

Public clarification #1

"Transfer for a friend" is not "third-party transfer" and is not "money laundering".

I was not merely doing a simple transfer, I was doing a business with this friend by giving him preferential foreign exchange rates compared to his banks, for a return of a small commission.

The supposed procedure:

Friend's LR                ->   My LR (my revenue to perform the service)
My LR                      ->   My USD bank account (my own exchange activity through AurumXchange, et al.)
My USD bank account ->   X (my own exchange activity for forex)
X                            ->   My SGD bank account (my own withdrawal in another currency)
My SGD bank account ->   Friend's SGD bank account (my cost to perform the service)

Only the first and last part are related to both my friend and me. It's a common business procedure for all kinds of legitimate trades, and the procedure itself is completely legal.

The suspicion comes from a Bitcoinica hack which happens to involve an email address that I used for testing purpose on mtgox.com, and a transfer on AurumXchange at similar timeframe with an amount of similar order of magnitude. However, "third-party transfer" is strictly defined to be using an exchange service as an intermediary between two different accounts not controlled by the same person.

For example,

My LR -> AurumXchange
AurumXchange -> Friend's bank account

This is third party transfer, and it should trigger an AML investigation immediately.

A common use of third-party transfer is scamming:

Trader A: I want to buy some Bitcoins
Trader B: Sure, send the funds to *** (AurumXchange's bank account), and make sure you have transaction reference XXX
Trader A: Done
Trader B gets a Mt. Gox code from AurumXchange, and deposits into an unverified Mt. Gox account, and cash out Bitcoins.
Trader B never pays Trader A anything.
Trader A: You are a scammer! I'm reporting to the police with your bank account.
AurumXchange will be investigated, and Trader B may never appear again.

This IS the real (third-party transfer == money laundering) you're talking about.

EDIT:

I only post public clarification when too many people are questioning the same thing when I deem to be factually wrong and worth a public clarification. You should continue contacting me at bitcoin@zhoutong.com for other clarifications or explanations. You shouldn't expect me to read/reply every single post in this thread.

Laundering = conceal the origin of funds. this is exactly what you try to do by covering your "friend"
(I can understand that you protect him from the public but with AurumXchange you should put your cards on the table)
After you stated publicly that you are acting for a third party in this transaction ergo not acting on your behalf, AurumXchange was responsible to prove that everything is legitimate. Your friend could have used an unknown source to hand the funds over to you, just to receive them in his own account. In this scenario you would have been an intermediary of money laundering. The sole thing you have to do is provide all information concerning this transaction to AurumXchange to prove it is legitimate. If you are doing your best you should provide this information quickly.

Your scenario:
If you run an exchange business you would probably need a licence in which case you as intermediary are responsible of supervising  AML-regulations. I doubt you have this kind of business and guess it is a theoretical construction to serve your cause.

I'm not acting for a third party. AurumXchange has no legal obligation to send the money to my friend.

I was stating that the source of funds is my friend, and I have no knowledge of any money laundering activity. I'm not wilfully protecting a criminal from money laundering because his business activity is legitimate.

AurumXchange has the obligation to report to authority if they believe the transaction is suspicious. At the same time, they can release the funds either to source account or destination account because criminal liability will be waived (they can legally proceed with the business so that no information about AML is divulged, and they are not subject to accomplice crime, according to Dominican laws).

Founder of NameTerrific (https://www.nameterrific.com/). Co-founder of CoinJar (https://coinjar.io/)

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August 01, 2012, 02:04:48 AM
 #771


By the way, a freezing order by court in Dominica is only effective for 7 days unless a money laundering crime is charged within 7 days. Also divulging any information about an ongoing AML investigation is a criminal offence, punishable with up to $250,000 in fines and 10 years of inprisonment. (The inprisonment for money laundering itself is up to 7 years.)

Reference: Dominican Money Laundering Prevention Act (2000)

This means that AurumXchange must have received an order by a more superior party than court to have frozen the funds for more than 7 days, and/or an AML investigation has not formally taken place.


If you have nothing to fear and tell the truth, why are you fighting so strongly against providing this little AML compliance info?
Do your best and send it to them! -> Problem solved!

It's not a little. It's the entire trace of financial transactions and confidential identifications of all known involved parties, all certified!

And they have to be sent to a "company" without registration number, telephone or address. And according to AurumXchange, this is the first time they blocked funds!

I have provided Mt. Gox with my identification documents, but I'm not willing to do the same for AurumXchange due to their shady business activities. I'm more willing to file a lawsuit against Roberto personally (because there's no company registration details).

Founder of NameTerrific (https://www.nameterrific.com/). Co-founder of CoinJar (https://coinjar.io/)

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August 01, 2012, 02:12:22 AM
 #772

Public clarification #2

Chen Jianhai has attempted to cash out $5,000 of LR exchanged from stolen Bitcoins owned by Bitcoinica. However the funds have been blocked by AurumXchange.

There is solid evidence that the $5,000 was Bitcoinica's stolen properties, because the email and LR account matched the hacker's identity. The bank account was purchased from the black market though.

AurumXchange is possessing $5,000 of Bitcoinica's stolen funds at the moment. Also the total income from other Chen Jianhai's money laundering transactions is estimated to be about $2,200, calculated from the data provided by AurumXchange.

Founder of NameTerrific (https://www.nameterrific.com/). Co-founder of CoinJar (https://coinjar.io/)

Donations for my future Bitcoin projects: 19Uk3tiD5XkBcmHyQYhJxp9QHoub7RosVb
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August 01, 2012, 02:17:23 AM
 #773


By the way, a freezing order by court in Dominica is only effective for 7 days unless a money laundering crime is charged within 7 days. Also divulging any information about an ongoing AML investigation is a criminal offence, punishable with up to $250,000 in fines and 10 years of inprisonment. (The inprisonment for money laundering itself is up to 7 years.)

Reference: Dominican Money Laundering Prevention Act (2000)

This means that AurumXchange must have received an order by a more superior party than court to have frozen the funds for more than 7 days, and/or an AML investigation has not formally taken place.


If you have nothing to fear and tell the truth, why are you fighting so strongly against providing this little AML compliance info?
Do your best and send it to them! -> Problem solved!

It's not a little. It's the entire trace of financial transactions and confidential identifications of all known involved parties, all certified!

And they have to be sent to a "company" without registration number, telephone or address. And according to AurumXchange, this is the first time they blocked funds!

I have provided Mt. Gox with my identification documents, but I'm not willing to do the same for AurumXchange due to their shady business activities. I'm more willing to file a lawsuit against Roberto personally (because there's no company registration details).
In my opinion no big hindrance for such an amount of money. I am also confident that AurumXchange will provide you with contact information since it is obviously in their interest to solve this issue as quickly as possible. So far they act very constructive and supportive.

This business wasn't so shady when you exchanged your funds - so you will have to bear the consequences!

I openly boycott the Bitcoinica Consultancy team or Intersango: Donald Norman, Patrick Strateman and Amir Taaki
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August 01, 2012, 02:17:43 AM
 #774

Public clarification #2

Chen Jianhai has attempted to cash out $5,000 of LR exchanged from stolen Bitcoins owned by Bitcoinica. However the funds have been blocked by AurumXchange.

There is solid evidence that the $5,000 was Bitcoinica's stolen properties, because the email and LR account matched the hacker's identity. The bank account was purchased from the black market though.

AurumXchange is possessing $5,000 of Bitcoinica's stolen funds at the moment. Also the total income from other Chen Jianhai's money laundering transactions is estimated to be about $2,200, calculated from the data provided by AurumXchange.

You seem to know an aweful lot about everything in a conveniently short period of time. Why does it matter what order the funds are sent in? They need to be returned without delay, regardless of consequence.
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August 01, 2012, 02:18:56 AM
 #775

Hi Zhou,

I think there was one question that you didn't answer from one of my earlier emails. You said you could recover 20k BTC and to date have recovered 15k BTC. Are you still able to recover the other 5k BTC?

Yes. I'm recovering the first 15k BTC to show "good faith" and "co-operation". The remaining will be recovered after all the fiat has been recovered. The fiat money is the most legally sensitive part of this deal, and it should have taken place before Bitcoin.

Hey asshole - send the remaining 25k BTC NOW.  We all know the fiat money is locked up until you identify yourself, and it's clear you are not going to do that.

STOP PLAYING YOUR CHILDISH GAMES.

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August 01, 2012, 02:20:23 AM
 #776


By the way, a freezing order by court in Dominica is only effective for 7 days unless a money laundering crime is charged within 7 days. Also divulging any information about an ongoing AML investigation is a criminal offence, punishable with up to $250,000 in fines and 10 years of inprisonment. (The inprisonment for money laundering itself is up to 7 years.)

Reference: Dominican Money Laundering Prevention Act (2000)

This means that AurumXchange must have received an order by a more superior party than court to have frozen the funds for more than 7 days, and/or an AML investigation has not formally taken place.


If you have nothing to fear and tell the truth, why are you fighting so strongly against providing this little AML compliance info?
Do your best and send it to them! -> Problem solved!

It's not a little. It's the entire trace of financial transactions and confidential identifications of all known involved parties, all certified!

And they have to be sent to a "company" without registration number, telephone or address. And according to AurumXchange, this is the first time they blocked funds!

I have provided Mt. Gox with my identification documents, but I'm not willing to do the same for AurumXchange due to their shady business activities. I'm more willing to file a lawsuit against Roberto personally (because there's no company registration details).

I think asking for registration is something you should have done BEFORE you deposited funds there. Your refusal to provide AML documents to them means they have no choice to seize the funds and you are acting in bad faith at this point.
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August 01, 2012, 02:25:27 AM
 #777

Roberto claims to have been trying to interact with Zhou through legal channels, https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=84042.msg1061816#msg1061816

No reason to doubt this, especially if continuing to give Zhou the benefit of the doubt.

How's your child Korean model doing? I've not followed the story...

My model? I don't own any models, maybe an RC plane. If you're asking about the 17 1/2 year old Korean model whom I think is awesome for supporting Bitcoin, I guess she's doing fine. Why don't you ask her yourself on her facebook at http://www.facebook.com/yoonyeonghwa . Last I talked to her, she was interested in promoting mining in Korea too. I told her she could buy contracts from people like you too if she wanted, but I couldn't rightfully suggest a shady operation that pays false figures and then crashes out. I think I'll recommend she buy a Jalapeno.

@Zhou Tong: I would also concur that Roberto, if he has not received an order from the government to do so (which would seem quite bizarre since no government would ask such a thing), posting your private information on the threads accusing you of being a scammer is not only against the law for AML purposes but a breach of your privacy agreement with him. Please consult with an attorney.

@Roberto: Please post your business registration/contact information in this thread for informational purposes so that Zhou's attorney can have it to address you officially.
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August 01, 2012, 02:25:42 AM
 #778

Hi Zhou,

I think there was one question that you didn't answer from one of my earlier emails. You said you could recover 20k BTC and to date have recovered 15k BTC. Are you still able to recover the other 5k BTC?

Yes. I'm recovering the first 15k BTC to show "good faith" and "co-operation". The remaining will be recovered after all the fiat has been recovered. The fiat money is the most legally sensitive part of this deal, and it should have taken place before Bitcoin.

Hey asshole - send the remaining 25k BTC NOW.  We all know the fiat money is locked up until you identify yourself, and it's clear you are not going to do that.

STOP PLAYING YOUR CHILDISH GAMES.

I'm also trying to figure out if this mounts to extortion. So far, many of the statements from Zhou have been of extortion nature. Promising to have the funds released if no legal action is taken is a prime example. Its time to just send the funds Zhou. Too many people have suffered too long because of this fiasco.
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August 01, 2012, 02:25:49 AM
 #779


By the way, a freezing order by court in Dominica is only effective for 7 days unless a money laundering crime is charged within 7 days. Also divulging any information about an ongoing AML investigation is a criminal offence, punishable with up to $250,000 in fines and 10 years of inprisonment. (The inprisonment for money laundering itself is up to 7 years.)

Reference: Dominican Money Laundering Prevention Act (2000)

This means that AurumXchange must have received an order by a more superior party than court to have frozen the funds for more than 7 days, and/or an AML investigation has not formally taken place.


If you have nothing to fear and tell the truth, why are you fighting so strongly against providing this little AML compliance info?
Do your best and send it to them! -> Problem solved!

It's not a little. It's the entire trace of financial transactions and confidential identifications of all known involved parties, all certified!

And they have to be sent to a "company" without registration number, telephone or address. And according to AurumXchange, this is the first time they blocked funds!

I have provided Mt. Gox with my identification documents, but I'm not willing to do the same for AurumXchange due to their shady business activities. I'm more willing to file a lawsuit against Roberto personally (because there's no company registration details).
In my opinion no big hindrance for such an amount of money. I am also confident that AurumXchange will provide you with contact information since it is obviously in their interest to solve this issue as quickly as possible. So far they act very constructive and supportive.

This business wasn't so shady when you exchanged your funds - so you will have to bear the consequences!

They didn't provide me any contact information. Their "repeated requests" are lies.

I have not received a single email from AurumXchange and all communication from them is the support ticket. You can go and check the ticket yourself, and compare with their public posts (compare the private "sorry I can't share any information with you." and the public "look, ZT is the thief!"). It's highly obvious that they only want to let the public know their "heroic" acts and they have no interest in solving this matter with involved individuals.

The business is shady as always, like any unincorporated Bitcoin business. But I trusted Roberto personally because he has been very co-operative in Bitcoinica integration, and we gave each other $10,000 of mutual line of credit in that deal.

Founder of NameTerrific (https://www.nameterrific.com/). Co-founder of CoinJar (https://coinjar.io/)

Donations for my future Bitcoin projects: 19Uk3tiD5XkBcmHyQYhJxp9QHoub7RosVb
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August 01, 2012, 02:27:25 AM
 #780

Hi Zhou,

I think there was one question that you didn't answer from one of my earlier emails. You said you could recover 20k BTC and to date have recovered 15k BTC. Are you still able to recover the other 5k BTC?

Yes. I'm recovering the first 15k BTC to show "good faith" and "co-operation". The remaining will be recovered after all the fiat has been recovered. The fiat money is the most legally sensitive part of this deal, and it should have taken place before Bitcoin.

Hey asshole - send the remaining 25k BTC NOW.  We all know the fiat money is locked up until you identify yourself, and it's clear you are not going to do that.

STOP PLAYING YOUR CHILDISH GAMES.

I'm also trying to figure out if this mounts to extortion. So far, many of the statements from Zhou have been of extortion nature. Promising to have the funds released if no legal action is taken is a prime example. Its time to just send the funds Zhou. Too many people have suffered too long because of this fiasco.

Send to who? Send to satoshi? Send to Red Cross?

I'm trying to resolve this problem for Bitcoinica customers, not just for myself.

I'm waiting, not delaying.

Founder of NameTerrific (https://www.nameterrific.com/). Co-founder of CoinJar (https://coinjar.io/)

Donations for my future Bitcoin projects: 19Uk3tiD5XkBcmHyQYhJxp9QHoub7RosVb
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