BitBuster
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July 30, 2012, 12:48:40 PM |
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The website appears to show a technical consultancy with nothing to suggest that its staff are legally qualified or licensed to practice law in the United States? On what authority does this entity operate in a legal capacity? Is it even a registered company? The domain was registered in June 2011. When exactly did this outfit begin operation? BB. |
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eroxors
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Activity: 924
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Think. Positive. Thoughts.
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July 30, 2012, 12:57:58 PM |
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The story is complete B.S.... it was woven together with precision to protect the criminal.
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vampire
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July 30, 2012, 01:07:31 PM |
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The website appears to show a technical consultancy with nothing to suggest that its staff are legally qualified or licensed to practice law in the United States? On what authority does this entity operate in a legal capacity? Is it even a registered company? The domain was registered in June 2011. When exactly did this outfit begin operation? BB. He's a lawyer. |
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Vod
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Merit: 3166
Licking my boob since 1970
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July 30, 2012, 01:36:05 PM |
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That's quite a leap of faith - it says NOWHERE on his profile he is a lawyer.The closest he came was working for two years at a law firm as an attorney - which is simply another name for agent or proxy. He's not a lawyer - just a glorified legal secretary. |
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dishwara
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July 30, 2012, 01:41:16 PM |
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http://www.linkedin.com/in/patrickmurckPatrick Murck's Overview Current: Principal at Engage Legal Principal at Engage Strategy Past: Business Development / Legal at BigDoor Attorney at Fletcher, Heald & Hildreth, PLC Law Clerk at Garvey Schubert Barer Education: The Catholic University of America, Columbus School of Law American University
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vampire
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July 30, 2012, 01:47:24 PM |
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That's quite a leap of faith - it says NOWHERE on his profile he is a lawyer.The closest he came was working for two years at a law firm as an attorney - which is simply another name for agent or proxy. He's not a lawyer - just a glorified legal secretary. He has a JD, I dont know if he passed bar or not. edit: I cannot find him the WA's bar list: http://www.mywsba.org |
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Yankee (BitInstant)
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Charlie 'Van Bitcoin' Shrem
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July 30, 2012, 02:20:52 PM |
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That's quite a leap of faith - it says NOWHERE on his profile he is a lawyer.The closest he came was working for two years at a law firm as an attorney - which is simply another name for agent or proxy. He's not a lawyer - just a glorified legal secretary. He has a JD, I dont know if he passed bar or not. edit: I cannot find him the WA's bar list: http://www.mywsba.orgThats because he is a member of the Washington DC bar http://www.dcbar.org/find_a_member/index.cfm -Charlie |
Bitcoin pioneer. An apostle of Satoshi Nakamoto. A crusader for a new, better, tech-driven society. A dreamer. More about me: http://CharlieShrem.com |
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Vod
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Licking my boob since 1970
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July 30, 2012, 02:27:23 PM |
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That's quite a leap of faith - it says NOWHERE on his profile he is a lawyer.The closest he came was working for two years at a law firm as an attorney - which is simply another name for agent or proxy. He's not a lawyer - just a glorified legal secretary. He has a JD, I dont know if he passed bar or not. edit: I cannot find him the WA's bar list: http://www.mywsba.orgThats because he is a member of the Washington DC bar http://www.dcbar.org/find_a_member/index.cfm -Charlie Well then, I stand corrected!  |
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defxor
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July 30, 2012, 02:40:33 PM
Last edit: September 14, 2012, 07:46:52 PM by defxor |
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This tells a lot about your attitude. I hope it is a hindsight and you didn't assume Bitcoinica to be a scammer's product when it was launched.
tl;dr: The road to hell is paved with good intentions. I'm quite sure you launched Bitcoinica with the intention for it to provide value to the community. As initially suggested by Patrick/Intersango and others, your claims about trade volume were very suspicious. It's likely you simply exaggerated them, not unusual when being proud of what you've created. Whether the Linode theft (where other accounts as well were swiped) just provided an excuse for some profit on the side or not I don't know, but I'm quite sure the only real money to have come out of running Bitcoinica were from user deposits. I have no personal opinion of whether it operated as a pure bucket shop or not, but others have documented the lack of visible MtGox movement even when Bitcoinica should've been hedging. When, based on how you presented the success of Bitcoinica in public, you were approached with investment offers I believe you were simply unable to admit that it wasn't as successful as you claimed. I believe you went along way too far with whatever happened, and that the Rackspace "hack" was the simplest way out when Tihan started questioning the books. Additionally, it provided yet more profit which you might've needed to be able to keep up appearances with your friends and family. After the very visible and complete failure by the Intersango people to handle the resulting mess I believe you made yet another profitable "hack" on the service. It wasn't as well planned nor executed as the previous, maybe it was simply opportunistic after having realized the release of the source code provided the excuse needed. I've posted links to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudologia_fantastica and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance since I do believe they apply. I think you're currently unable to admit to yourself and people close to you where things went wrong, and you're still hoping to be able to exit this unscathed. (I consider the above to be the simplest explanation possible that still fits all the known facts. I'm wary about the exact involvement by Amir, Patrick and Donald though - and since Tihan and Zhou supposedly have met in person it would be interesting to know exactly whom else have actually met either of them.*) But then, the only reason I really care is that if people's only takeaway from having joined the Bitcoin community is that they get constantly scammed this will never fly. I thus believe Bitcoin fraud needs to be handled by the proper legal authorities. We're way past Mybitcoin's "as long as I give 49% back you guys won't hurt me, right?" - which btw looks suspiciously close to what you're currently trying to do as well. *) Edit: Tihan's identity is verified by an upstanding member of the community, and thus Zhou's should be as well. |
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vampire
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July 30, 2012, 02:46:26 PM |
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Well then, I stand corrected! He's a lawyer, just can't practice law in WA. |
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sarpar
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July 30, 2012, 03:13:51 PM |
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@AurumXchange : Did Zhou so far provide evidence that these 40.000 "for a friend" are legitimate? Is he cooperative in that point?
No, he has not. We have sent numerous emails requesting very specific KYC information and received nothing in return. Here is the situation (as far as I can explain in a public forum). The moment Zhou Tong, in his uncontrollable verbosity, said that the funds he exchanged through us were exchanged "for a friend", he not only breached our end user exchange agreement (which clearly specifies that third party exchanges are strictly prohibited), but also broke every AML/CFT law in existence. We are now required by law to withhold these funds on a segregated account until: 1) The identity and residential address of each party involved can be proven by the furnishing of KYC information that is identifiable through the use of reputable services such as world-check.com and/or notarized statements by local authorities. 2) This would include the identity of Zhou Tong, "the friend", and the Multi-millionaire relic collector, since the origins of this funds are more likely the result of criminal activity. 3) We will need certified statements of the origins of funds, along with official declarations of the financial institutions involved in the handling of this funds corroborating the flow of capital. 4) Since Zhou Tong is the prime suspect of this investigation, we are under no obligation to release information to him. We have asked him repeatedly for his attorney's contact information, and to this date we have received no answer. 5) Once this information is received, and our investigation is concluded, we will report our fundings to the relevant authorities who will decide how to proceed. Once the information is received, we would report our findings and facts to the competent authorities, and most likely release the funds to their appointed receiver for further action. (since you still read this), this shows clearly what I feared. So my conclusion is: If you retain one single cent of the funds recovered from "Chen" as long as the AurumXchange-issue is not solved you CLEARLY scam the Bitcoinica-Users for that amount.To remind you: so far you promised to be able to recover further 140.000 USD. I think a time horizon for that to come through would be a sign of good will. |
I openly boycott the Bitcoinica Consultancy team or Intersango: Donald Norman, Patrick Strateman and Amir Taaki
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BitBuster
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July 30, 2012, 03:48:38 PM |
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Well then, I stand corrected! Sorry, I still don't get under what authority is Patrick Murck allowed to receive, possess and transfer stolen goods? There must be some sort of judicial process which results in the granting of a warrant to do so? Please Patrick Murck, lets have all the facts and proof. Zhou is clearly on his way to prison, which is a shame and a triumph at the same time. No doubt there are others who are culpable too. BB. |
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Yankee (BitInstant)
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Charlie 'Van Bitcoin' Shrem
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July 30, 2012, 04:07:49 PM |
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Well then, I stand corrected! Sorry, I still don't get under what authority is Patrick Murck allowed to receive, possess and transfer stolen goods? There must be some sort of judicial process which results in the granting of a warrant to do so? Please Patrick Murck, lets have all the facts and proof. Zhou is clearly on his way to prison, which is a shame and a triumph at the same time. No doubt there are others who are culpable too. BB. Dude, instead of lashing out and requesting information in bold lettering. Have you even emailed or called Patrick to ask him? I was just at their offices in Seattle last week, and their team of 4+ lawyers hold Bitinstant and a few others as their clients. Please, do yourself a favor and reach out. Once you do, you can post the information on the forums. Here is his info: -Charlie |
Bitcoin pioneer. An apostle of Satoshi Nakamoto. A crusader for a new, better, tech-driven society. A dreamer. More about me: http://CharlieShrem.com |
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sarpar
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July 30, 2012, 04:15:45 PM |
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Well then, I stand corrected! Sorry, I still don't get under what authority is Patrick Murck allowed to receive, possess and transfer stolen goods? There must be some sort of judicial process which results in the granting of a warrant to do so? Please Patrick Murck, lets have all the facts and proof. Zhou is clearly on his way to prison, which is a shame and a triumph at the same time. No doubt there are others who are culpable too. BB. in my opinion not really important. having legal education he knows what he gets himself into. he acts on recommendation of big-players in the bitcoin scene - so I dont worry. btw. BTC-funds you can monitor in the address provided. ... contrary to that I am deeply thankful that he offers this service to the community! Let us focus on the relevant tasks to end this nightmare the following in order: 1. Recovery of ALL funds through Zhou2. Get the bitcoinica team up running again 3. Receive refunds 4. Thank Patrick Murk, prosecute the hacker, thank OR prosecute the Bitcoinica team (its up to you: ACT!) let's stay with 1. and 2. for the moment, since all other theoretical discussions are of 0 value. |
I openly boycott the Bitcoinica Consultancy team or Intersango: Donald Norman, Patrick Strateman and Amir Taaki
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dancingnancy
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July 30, 2012, 04:18:29 PM |
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@AurumXchange : Did Zhou so far provide evidence that these 40.000 "for a friend" are legitimate? Is he cooperative in that point?
No, he has not. We have sent numerous emails requesting very specific KYC information and received nothing in return. Here is the situation (as far as I can explain in a public forum). The moment Zhou Tong, in his uncontrollable verbosity, said that the funds he exchanged through us were exchanged "for a friend", he not only breached our end user exchange agreement (which clearly specifies that third party exchanges are strictly prohibited), but also broke every AML/CFT law in existence. We are now required by law to withhold these funds on a segregated account until: 1) The identity and residential address of each party involved can be proven by the furnishing of KYC information that is identifiable through the use of reputable services such as world-check.com and/or notarized statements by local authorities. 2) This would include the identity of Zhou Tong, "the friend", and the Multi-millionaire relic collector, since the origins of this funds are more likely the result of criminal activity. 3) We will need certified statements of the origins of funds, along with official declarations of the financial institutions involved in the handling of this funds corroborating the flow of capital. 4) Since Zhou Tong is the prime suspect of this investigation, we are under no obligation to release information to him. We have asked him repeatedly for his attorney's contact information, and to this date we have received no answer. 5) Once this information is received, and our investigation is concluded, we will report our fundings to the relevant authorities who will decide how to proceed. Once the information is received, we would report our findings and facts to the competent authorities, and most likely release the funds to their appointed receiver for further action. I trust you guys, but are acting extremely unprofessional. I will personally never use your service in fear of you publicly going after users in this format. From an outsiders perspective you really look terrible. I'm serious. ZT looks bad, but so do you. You have stated ZT is the prime suspect? In what? Is there even a fucking police report? He is the prime suspect according to you, AFAIK. Basically, you are just holding his money because you want to. You have stated he has broken your TOS. I am sure you have violated your own TOS when you have posted personal information about your users all over the web. This is turning into a big fucking joke. Get the fucking money to the lawyers so us bitcoinica users can get our money back. That's it. |
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sarpar
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July 30, 2012, 04:27:11 PM |
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I trust you guys, but are acting extremely unprofessional. I will personally never use your service in fear of you publicly going after users in this format. From an outsiders perspective you really look terrible. I'm serious. ZT looks bad, but so do you.
You have stated ZT is the prime suspect? In what? Is there even a fucking police report? He is the prime suspect according to you, AFAIK.
Basically, you are just holding his money because you want to. You have stated he has broken your TOS. I am sure you have violated your own TOS when you have posted personal information about your users all over the web.
This is turning into a big fucking joke.
Get the fucking money to the lawyers so us bitcoinica users can get our money back. That's it.
Obviously you have a very poor understanding of current international financial legislation. Zhou Tong, by his own admission (not according to us), exchange this funds for "a friend". If you suggest we are holding his funds solely based on the fact that he broke our TOS, you obviously did not take the time to read what I have posted. We are LEGALLY obligated to freeze his funds. what will actually happen if he doesn't react to these money laundering accusations? (since his plan is to take the amount frozen just from Chens funds) Will it be frozen forever? |
I openly boycott the Bitcoinica Consultancy team or Intersango: Donald Norman, Patrick Strateman and Amir Taaki
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bittenbob
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July 30, 2012, 04:31:47 PM |
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I trust you guys, but are acting extremely unprofessional. I will personally never use your service in fear of you publicly going after users in this format. From an outsiders perspective you really look terrible. I'm serious. ZT looks bad, but so do you.
You have stated ZT is the prime suspect? In what? Is there even a fucking police report? He is the prime suspect according to you, AFAIK.
Basically, you are just holding his money because you want to. You have stated he has broken your TOS. I am sure you have violated your own TOS when you have posted personal information about your users all over the web.
This is turning into a big fucking joke.
Get the fucking money to the lawyers so us bitcoinica users can get our money back. That's it.
Say what you will but if Roberto and Mark hadn't done this, we would be no further towards recovering funds. So far Zhou has managed to transfer 15k BTC out of 20k BTC and 140k USD promised. If anything you should be thanking AurumXchange and MTGox for getting to the bottom of this. |
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ninjarobot
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July 30, 2012, 04:38:10 PM |
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I trust you guys, but are acting extremely unprofessional. I will personally never use your service in fear of you publicly going after users in this format. From an outsiders perspective you really look terrible. I'm serious. ZT looks bad, but so do you.
You have stated ZT is the prime suspect? In what? Is there even a fucking police report? He is the prime suspect according to you, AFAIK.
Basically, you are just holding his money because you want to. You have stated he has broken your TOS. I am sure you have violated your own TOS when you have posted personal information about your users all over the web.
This is turning into a big fucking joke.
Get the fucking money to the lawyers so us bitcoinica users can get our money back. That's it.
Say what you will but if Roberto and Mark hadn't done this, we would be no further towards recovering funds. So far Zhou has managed to transfer 15k BTC out of 20k BTC and 140k USD promised. If anything you should be thanking AurumXchange and MTGox for getting to the bottom of this. +1 After having experienced the continued inaction of Bitcoinica - Seeing these services work together and achieve results is a breath of fresh air. Kudos! |
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BitBuster
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July 30, 2012, 04:40:41 PM |
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Dude, instead of lashing out and requesting information in bold lettering. Have you even emailed or called Patrick to ask him? Hi Charlie, I'm not lashing out at anyone except for perhaps Zhou. I think it is much better that Patrick posts here himself rather than me asking for a private response then posting it here. Others could accuse me of making it up or even mis-quoting. The words are much better from the legally-qualified horses mouth. I can assure you that neither one of us needs the headache, the personal time invested, nor the lawyer bills we are getting regarding this issue, not to mention have our company's name dragged through this circus. Please be considerate to that fact. Roberto, while I appreciate the sentiment and believe that you have acted admirably, what you describe is an inevitable and repetitive consequence of operating a bitcoin exchange. Your profit margin is the reason that you are involved with bitcoin and thus bear responsibility to persue the criminals who use you. It has no doubt been a stressful time, but it was your choice to enter the market and take on that responsibility. Please don't take this as an insult, because it isn't. I'm just stating the fact of the matter. Gotta take the rough with the smooth. So far Zhou has managed to transfer 15k BTC out of 20k BTC and 140k USD promised. This is what I don't get. If "Chen" admitted guilt and agreed to pay up, why does there even need to be seperate transactions? Surely one transaction equalling the total amount is all that's required? Is this yet another delaying tactic by Zhou or a means of keeping the dogs at bay ("dont kill me now, I can get the rest of the money")? BB. |
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Vod
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Licking my boob since 1970
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July 30, 2012, 04:42:49 PM
Last edit: July 30, 2012, 04:55:58 PM by mlawrence |
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Is this yet another delaying tactic by Zhou or a means of keeping the dogs at bay ("dont kill me now, I can get the rest of the money")?
This is how I see it. He figures the longer he can stall, the more people will forget and less likely he will be held accountable for theft. |
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