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Author Topic: Statement about the suspect of recent Bitcoinica hack  (Read 124441 times)
sarpar
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July 30, 2012, 10:51:44 AM
 #541

@AurumXchange : Did Zhou so far provide evidence that these 40.000 "for a friend" are legitimate? Is he cooperative in that point?

I can imagine they will not say anything in public during what is now in progress behind the scenes.

This could also be the reason why ZT is suddenly so cooperative: FEAR

Y/N is enough for me - it shows whether Zhou is somehow right to retain 40.000 or not and just tries to save his ass by bringing his tuition fee for next year into a save harbour.

I openly boycott the Bitcoinica Consultancy team or Intersango: Donald Norman, Patrick Strateman and Amir Taaki
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July 30, 2012, 10:54:45 AM
 #542

ZT being the hacker or not, he is still the only one that acts sort of professional here.
Have a look at the consultancy:
Patrik/Intersago is in Vegas gambling with pirate
Amir/Genjix doesn't seem to care too much lately
Donald, one can only hope that he stopped delaying the payouts
So I guess that Roger is on the right track, ZT will be the fast track for getting back the funds
repentance
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July 30, 2012, 10:56:05 AM
 #543

AurumXchange posted that there are AML-investigations going on, so just sending these funds into the trust wont be so easy. Therfore you are unfair by retaining 40.000 from Chen and avoid further investigation of your personal actions.

Suggestion:

1. send all of Chens funds to the Trust
2. support the aurumXchange investigations including AML investigations
3. If you can prove they are legally your fund you get them returned
4. If you cant prove that they will get into the Bitcoinica Trust Fund
5. If the Trust fund exceeds the amount stolen in the hack you get it returned anyhow

Thats how it works and in no other fishy way. Your friend has to wait - but if he can trust your words shouldnt be afraid of anything

Users might be able to pressure Bitcoinica into accepting this arrangement or pressure other users into not taking legal action, but they have no power whatsoever to stop an AML investigation.  That will continue to its natural conclusion whether or not the funds are recovered because, although related, the theft and the money laundering are separate crimes.  

A money laundering investigation does not require a police report by the victims of the theft.  A money laundering investigation won't just look at this one suspicious transaction, either.  It will look for other suspicious transactions involving the same people and originating and destination accounts - the LR records may reveal further information which neither MtGox nor AurumXchange possess and which links to other people and accounts.

While passing the returned funds through a lawyer's trust account will help obscure their true origin, it's not going to help conceal the AurumXchange and Liberty Reserve transaction trails.

All I can say is that this is Bitcoin. I don't believe it until I see six confirmations.
Gareth Nelson
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July 30, 2012, 12:06:04 PM
 #544

Even though as a community we can determine Chen Jianhai to be the hacker,
No we cannot. You have provided no evidence of this person's existence at all, let alone their actions/implication in this theft. I invite you to do so now.

he hasn't been proven guilty legally yet. That will only happen when he faces a criminal charge.
He hasn't been proven to exist or guilty in any way either. You have invented this person to deflect blame from yourself. Again, I invite you to prove me wrong.

So intuitively I feel that the more the community criticizes me, the more I deserve to actually take possession of the funds and run away (because they penalized me like I did steal the funds, and I didn't).
This is a pathetic attempt of blackmail and to silence your critics without justification, with the retained promise of refund.

I believe so. He handled this matter very professionally and I'm going to continue recovering the fiat money from the hackers.
Well what a wonderful white knight you are. Please, tell me how you, a 14/15/16/17 year old:
1. Were able to gain audience with a prolific and dangerous criminal.
2. Prove his guilt and gain a confession.
3. Strip him of his latest theft.
4. Gain permission to publish his name and incriminate him publicly.
5. Still be able to walk.

I'm just going to comment here to say "Yes, this really is our attorney at BitInstant, and he is a trustworthy guy".... any creditors should feel free to call up his firm at Engage Legal if they have any concerns.
Please provide contact details for this firm and the specific people involved. Also please tell us how much of the recovered funds will be used to pay for whatever legal services have been contracted.


BB.

edit: Patrick's home address was mistakenly posted here, removed by his request - I ask that anyone who quoted my post please likewise remove it as the phone number etc are suitable means of contact
BitBuster
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July 30, 2012, 12:14:25 PM
 #545

No. I would simply retain $40K from those recovered from Chen Jianhai, and convert that to Singapore Dollar and send back to my friend.
So you will handle stolen goods and then launder it to a "friend" who is happy to be incriminated?

so there's no reason to not trust and co-operate with me when I can deliver my promise of the $100K and 20,000 BTC.
You appear to be a pathological liar, are heavily implicated and have returned very little. There is no reason to trust or co-operate with you.

Unfortunately, my friend (the source of legitimate LR funds) does not wish to be involved in this disaster because he is supposed to be irrelevant. He's fine with providing information to the authorities, but definitely not to the Bitcoin community after he has read this thread.
Can any legal entity confirm that this person does exist and that they are co-operating with investigations?

My only priority right now is to refund Bitcoinica customers, which should have finished 2 months ago.
This is only now a priority because you have been found out.

Doing anything else will not help this process.
No, doing anything else will not help you. You expect to just part-pay back some funds under the guise of a biblically inconsistent and suspicious story, without being tried and imprisoned for your theft.

The hacker didn't steal from me. Why should I file a police report?
Indeed, why are you so involved in this whole matter? You either stole the funds yourself or are heavily responsible for the theft. That is why you don't contact the authorities.

I'm sure Bitcoinica itself has helped the community to grow (by providing a way to hedge and facilitate trading through the interest system), otherwise I wouldn't have been involved in the first place.
I'm sure that Bitcoinica itself helped your personal wealth grow and this is why you started it in the first place.

The point of transferring the funds to a trusted third party is to provide safe and legal withholding of stolen properties and facilitate refunding process in the future.
So you say that Engage Legal have deliberately and knowingly received stolen funds from you? That incriminates both of you for handling and laundering stolen goods without any (stated) legal authority or court order.

Bitcoinica still owes you 100% of your claimed amount and I personally (or even Chen Jianhai) owe everyone 0% like always. Only when Bitcoinica officially recognize and identify their stolen properties, the liability status will change.
How convenient. True, the identity of the theif has not been legally proven, but this does not mean that you will not be. Again, if you have no liability (which is laughable, considering your deep implication in this), why are you so involved in the clear-up?

If there is any investigation I would respond that the originally legitimate funds of $40k (which I can show proof to police) were transferred to Bitcoinica instead.
And the Police would not care one bit. Stolen goods are stolen goods.

Fiat money is not Bitcoin. Your one dollar and my one dollar are identical.
Wrong.

If you need me to clarify any statement or evidence, please contact me directly at bitcoin@zhoutong.com. I will not post anything on this forum if I feel unnecessary or uncomfortable.

From this point you should not expect any explanation from me on this forum.
Predictably, you are now trying to end the dialogue because you STILL REFUSE TO ANSWER THE MANY LEGITIMATE QUESTIONS THAT HAVE BEEN PUT TO YOU, because they relate to your lies catching up with themselves. Running away won't help you, until you're in the prison showers, of course.

I give you one last chance to answer the many questions I and others have directly put to you.

   Patrick Murck
   7541 32nd Ave NW
   Seattle, Washington 98117
   United States
Thanks, could you point me to any additional email/website addresses and telephone numbers?


BB.
Gareth Nelson
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July 30, 2012, 12:17:05 PM
 #546

Patrick's contact details:

website: engagelegal.com
email: patrick@engagelegal.com
tel: US 703.608.8864
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July 30, 2012, 12:35:29 PM
 #547

I believe if this was a game, we would all be at about 90.1% of completion based on the scurry of posts coming from Zhou Tong.

The end is nigh, the end is nigh.

...In the land of the stale, the man with one share is king... >> Clipse

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BitBuster
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July 30, 2012, 12:48:40 PM
 #548

Patrick's contact details:

website: engagelegal.com
email: patrick@engagelegal.com
tel: US 703.608.8864
The website appears to show a technical consultancy with nothing to suggest that its staff are legally qualified or licensed to practice law in the United States?

On what authority does this entity operate in a legal capacity?

Is it even a registered company?

The domain was registered in June 2011. When exactly did this outfit begin operation?


BB.
eroxors
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July 30, 2012, 12:57:58 PM
 #549

The story is complete B.S.... it was woven together with precision to protect the criminal.

Don't get caught up in the game and have a nice day!
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July 30, 2012, 01:07:31 PM
 #550

Patrick's contact details:

website: engagelegal.com
email: patrick@engagelegal.com
tel: US 703.608.8864
The website appears to show a technical consultancy with nothing to suggest that its staff are legally qualified or licensed to practice law in the United States?

On what authority does this entity operate in a legal capacity?

Is it even a registered company?

The domain was registered in June 2011. When exactly did this outfit begin operation?


BB.

http://www.linkedin.com/in/patrickmurck

He's a lawyer.
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July 30, 2012, 01:36:05 PM
 #551


That's quite a leap of faith - it says NOWHERE on his profile he is a lawyer.

The closest he came was working for two years at a law firm as an attorney - which is simply another name for agent or proxy.

He's not a lawyer - just a glorified legal secretary.

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July 30, 2012, 01:41:16 PM
 #552

http://www.linkedin.com/in/patrickmurck

Patrick Murck's Overview

Current:        Principal at Engage Legal
                   Principal at Engage Strategy
Past:            Business Development / Legal at BigDoor
                   Attorney at Fletcher, Heald & Hildreth, PLC
                   Law Clerk at Garvey Schubert Barer
Education:    The Catholic University of America, Columbus School of Law
                  American University
vampire
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July 30, 2012, 01:47:24 PM
 #553


That's quite a leap of faith - it says NOWHERE on his profile he is a lawyer.

The closest he came was working for two years at a law firm as an attorney - which is simply another name for agent or proxy.

He's not a lawyer - just a glorified legal secretary.

He has a JD, I dont know if he passed bar or not.

edit: I cannot find him the WA's bar list:

http://www.mywsba.org
Yankee (BitInstant)
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July 30, 2012, 02:20:52 PM
 #554


That's quite a leap of faith - it says NOWHERE on his profile he is a lawyer.

The closest he came was working for two years at a law firm as an attorney - which is simply another name for agent or proxy.

He's not a lawyer - just a glorified legal secretary.

He has a JD, I dont know if he passed bar or not.

edit: I cannot find him the WA's bar list:

http://www.mywsba.org


Thats because he is a member of the Washington DC bar

http://www.dcbar.org/find_a_member/index.cfm

-Charlie

Bitcoin pioneer. An apostle of Satoshi Nakamoto. A crusader for a new, better, tech-driven society. A dreamer.

More about me: http://CharlieShrem.com
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July 30, 2012, 02:27:23 PM
 #555


That's quite a leap of faith - it says NOWHERE on his profile he is a lawyer.

The closest he came was working for two years at a law firm as an attorney - which is simply another name for agent or proxy.

He's not a lawyer - just a glorified legal secretary.

He has a JD, I dont know if he passed bar or not.

edit: I cannot find him the WA's bar list:

http://www.mywsba.org


Thats because he is a member of the Washington DC bar

http://www.dcbar.org/find_a_member/index.cfm

-Charlie

Well then, I stand corrected!   Smiley

I'm into creating universes, smiting people, writing holy books and listening to prayers.
If you want your prayers answered, you must donate to 1CDyx8AUTiYXS1ThcBU3vy4SJWQq6pdFMH
defxor
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July 30, 2012, 02:40:33 PM
 #556

This tells a lot about your attitude. I hope it is a hindsight and you didn't assume Bitcoinica to be a scammer's product when it was launched.

tl;dr: The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

I'm quite sure you launched Bitcoinica with the intention for it to provide value to the community. As initially suggested by Patrick/Intersango and others, your claims about trade volume were very suspicious. It's likely you simply exaggerated them, not unusual when being proud of what you've created.

Whether the Linode theft (where other accounts as well were swiped) just provided an excuse for some profit on the side or not I don't know, but I'm quite sure the only real money to have come out of running Bitcoinica were from user deposits. I have no personal opinion of whether it operated as a pure bucket shop or not, but others have documented the lack of visible MtGox movement even when Bitcoinica should've been hedging.

When, based on how you presented the success of Bitcoinica in public, you were approached with investment offers I believe you were simply unable to admit that it wasn't as successful as you claimed. I believe you went along way too far with whatever happened, and that the Rackspace "hack" was the simplest way out when Tihan started questioning the books. Additionally, it provided yet more profit which you might've needed to be able to keep up appearances with your friends and family.

After the very visible and complete failure by the Intersango people to handle the resulting mess I believe you made yet another profitable "hack" on the service. It wasn't as well planned nor executed as the previous, maybe it was simply opportunistic after having realized the release of the source code provided the excuse needed.

I've posted links to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudologia_fantastica and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance since I do believe they apply. I think you're currently unable to admit to yourself and people close to you where things went wrong, and you're still hoping to be able to exit this unscathed.

(I consider the above to be the simplest explanation possible that still fits all the known facts. I'm wary about the exact involvement by Amir, Patrick and Donald though - and since Tihan and Zhou supposedly have met in person it would be interesting to know exactly whom else have actually met either of them.*)

But then, the only reason I really care is that if people's only takeaway from having joined the Bitcoin community is that they get constantly scammed this will never fly. I thus believe Bitcoin fraud needs to be handled by the proper legal authorities. We're way past Mybitcoin's "as long as I give 49% back you guys won't hurt me, right?" - which btw looks suspiciously close to what you're currently trying to do as well.

*) Edit: Tihan's identity is verified by an upstanding member of the community, and thus Zhou's should be as well.
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July 30, 2012, 02:46:26 PM
 #557

Well then, I stand corrected!   Smiley

He's a lawyer, just can't practice law in WA.
sarpar
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July 30, 2012, 03:13:51 PM
 #558

@AurumXchange : Did Zhou so far provide evidence that these 40.000 "for a friend" are legitimate? Is he cooperative in that point?

No, he has not. We have sent numerous emails requesting very specific KYC information and received nothing in return.

Here is the situation (as far as I can explain in a public forum). The moment Zhou Tong, in his uncontrollable verbosity, said that the funds he exchanged through us were exchanged "for a friend", he not only breached our end user exchange agreement (which clearly specifies that third party exchanges are strictly prohibited), but also broke every AML/CFT law in existence.

We are now required by law to withhold these funds on a segregated account until:

1) The identity and residential address of each party involved can be proven by the furnishing of KYC information that is identifiable through the use of reputable services such as world-check.com and/or notarized statements by local authorities.
2) This would include the identity of Zhou Tong, "the friend", and the Multi-millionaire relic collector, since the origins of this funds are more likely the result of criminal activity.
3) We will need certified statements of the origins of funds, along with official declarations of the financial institutions involved in the handling of this funds corroborating the flow of capital.
4) Since Zhou Tong is the prime suspect of this investigation, we are under no obligation to release information to him. We have asked him repeatedly for his attorney's contact information, and to this date we have received no answer.
5) Once this information is received, and our investigation is concluded, we will report our fundings to the relevant authorities who will decide how to proceed.

Once the information is received, we would report our findings and facts to the competent authorities, and most likely release the funds to their appointed receiver for further action.


Dear Zhou (since you still read this),

this shows clearly what I feared. So my conclusion is:

If you retain one single cent of the funds recovered from "Chen" as long as the AurumXchange-issue is not solved you CLEARLY scam the Bitcoinica-Users for that amount.

To remind you: so far you promised to be able to recover further 140.000 USD. I think a time horizon for that to come through would be a sign of good will.

I openly boycott the Bitcoinica Consultancy team or Intersango: Donald Norman, Patrick Strateman and Amir Taaki
BitBuster
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July 30, 2012, 03:48:38 PM
 #559

Thats because he is a member of the Washington DC bar

http://www.dcbar.org/find_a_member/index.cfm

-Charlie
Well then, I stand corrected!   Smiley
Sorry, I still don't get under what authority is Patrick Murck allowed to receive, possess and transfer stolen goods? There must be some sort of judicial process which results in the granting of a warrant to do so? Please Patrick Murck, lets have all the facts and proof.

Zhou is clearly on his way to prison, which is a shame and a triumph at the same time. No doubt there are others who are culpable too.


BB.
Yankee (BitInstant)
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July 30, 2012, 04:07:49 PM
 #560


Thats because he is a member of the Washington DC bar

http://www.dcbar.org/find_a_member/index.cfm

-Charlie
Well then, I stand corrected!   Smiley
Sorry, I still don't get under what authority is Patrick Murck allowed to receive, possess and transfer stolen goods? There must be some sort of judicial process which results in the granting of a warrant to do so? Please Patrick Murck, lets have all the facts and proof.

Zhou is clearly on his way to prison, which is a shame and a triumph at the same time. No doubt there are others who are culpable too.

BB.

Dude, instead of lashing out and requesting information in bold lettering. Have you even emailed or called Patrick to ask him?

I was just at their offices in Seattle last week, and their team of 4+ lawyers hold Bitinstant and a few others as their clients.

Please, do yourself a favor and reach out. Once you do, you can post the information on the forums.

Here is his info:

Patrick's contact details:

website: engagelegal.com
email: patrick@engagelegal.com
tel: US 703.608.8864

-Charlie

Bitcoin pioneer. An apostle of Satoshi Nakamoto. A crusader for a new, better, tech-driven society. A dreamer.

More about me: http://CharlieShrem.com
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