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Author Topic: Statement about the suspect of recent Bitcoinica hack  (Read 124405 times)
Phinnaeus Gage
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August 02, 2012, 04:18:06 AM
 #941

Rarity, augustocroppo and mlawrence please continue your debate elsewhere and quit clogging up this thread. I had to split the discussion between Matthew and Chaang-Noi here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=97141.0 and it's a PITA to do so.

Looks like you forgot one person. LOL
You got a point there. Bruno, please stop clogging up this thread, and make one of yours. And probably name it 'The Hunt for Zhou Tong - Uncovering the man behind Bitcoinica' or something like that.  Angry

You're kidding! Right? But having definitive proof as to who truly is Zhou Tong is not relative to this thread, but discussing the meaning of the word "or" is. I've put in countless hours to help this community in this regard, among others, and am now kindly being asked to start a new thread on the subject because the proof does not merit any discussion on this thread.

The following quoted post, penned by greBit, does an excellent job of outlining, and connecting the dots, as to who Zhou Tong truly is. If this were the results of the mybitcoin.com investigation, I would have had daily BlowBobs from a many members here to last me a lifetime.

Please help me connect the dots illustrated by Bruno ...


Statement 1: Zhou Tong is `Dustin Curtis` owner of lifepath.me

Evidence:


That is correct! Kevin Lim owns isthereason.com. Kevin Lim is the same person that was selling lifepath.me on eBay at the time that Zhou Tong owned it. Zhou Tong even mentions lifepath.me on his Twitter account(s) prior to it being for sale on eBay. The email addresses even match up.

~Bruno~


http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lifepath-me-timeline-website-including-domain-name-code-and-designs-/140610305563#ht_3383wt_1165

Statement 2: Kevin Lim is `brainopera`
Evidence:

Quote
Registrant:
Kevin Lim
Pine Grove, Block 1K, #01-39
Singapore, 599001
Singapore

Registered through: GoDaddy.com, LLC (http://www.godaddy.com)
Domain Name: ISTHEREASON.COM
Created on: 08-Aug-04
Expires on: 08-Aug-13
Last Updated on: 09-Aug-11

Administrative Contact:
Lim, Kevin brainopera@gmail.com
Pine Grove, Block 1K, #01-39
Singapore, 599001
Singapore
+65.97371764

Technical Contact:
Lim, Kevin brainopera@gmail.com
Pine Grove, Block 1K, #01-39
Singapore, 599001
Singapore
+65.97371764


Statement 3: Kevin Lim is a bitcoin vendor in singapore
Evidence:

Quote from: Phinnaeus Gage link=topic=topic=95795.msg1068690
A simple Linkedin search would have found out who is William W. Murck. Or try that Google thingy that's all the rage. Seriously, a researcher like Patrick A. Murck, could not find out the following? http://brainopera.tumblr.com/post/6286926273/will-buy-bitcoin-in-singapore

Statement 4: Kevin Lim is `sgbitcoins@yahoo.com.sg`
Evidence:




Now this: https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups#!msg/hackerspacesg/FkuQ70ss2Z0/F_16htqyfDIJ

Quote
Singapore Bitcoins

Hi all,

I'm selling Bitcoins for cash on delivery. Please contact me directly
via email if you want to trade.

Prices and details here: https://sites.google.com/site/singaporebitcoins/

Thank you.

(To the mods: if ads like this aren't welcome on the mailing list, I
apologize. As Bitcoin is relevant to tech and startups, I hope that
this isn't considered spam.)

Scroll down a few posts and you see Kevin Lim's name.

https://sites.google.com/site/singaporebitcoins/

Quote
This service is currently on hiatus.

Contact us at sgbitcoins@gmail.com


~Bruno~


Statement 5: Zhou Tong is a bitcoin vendor in singapore called `sgitcoin`
Evidence:

His email address is sgitcoin@zhoutong.com on www.sgitcoin.com

Quote
Domain name: sgitcoin.com

Registrant Contact:
   Zhou Tong
   Tong Zhou ()
  
   Fax:
   PO Box 465
   Carlton South, VIC 3053
   AU

Administrative Contact:
   Zhou Tong
   Tong Zhou ()
   +61.390157926
   Fax:
   PO Box 465
   Carlton South, VIC 3053
   AU

Technical Contact:
   NameTerrific
   Tong Zhou ()
   +61.390157926
   Fax:
   Level 10, 50 Market Street
   Melbourne, VIC 3000
   AU

Status: Locked

Name Servers:
   node-1.us.terrificdns.com
   node-2.us.terrificdns.com
   node-3.us.terrificdns.com
  
Creation date: 02 Sep 2011 16:50:00
Expiration date: 02 Sep 2013 16:50:00

Statement 6: Zhou Tong is closely linked to Kevin Lim
Evidence:

If we can show that sgitcoin.com and sgbitcoins@yahoo.com.sg belong to the same identity.

They certainly appear very similar, coincidence would be hard to argue

Statement 7: bitchen is `sgbitcoins@yahoo.com.sg`
Evidence:

Hi everyone,

I'm offering GoxUSD funds or BTC for International Bank Wire/ WU/ Moneygram or local bank/ COD for people in Singapore. I will take a percentage as fee for withdrawals. This is a fast way for people looking to trade on Gox without waiting for their insane wire transfer times.

You can contact me via PM on the forums or drop me an email at sgbitcoins@yahoo.com.sg

Do let me know if you have any queries.

Statement 8: bitchen = Kevin Lim
Evidence:
From Statements  4 & 7
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August 02, 2012, 04:44:24 AM
 #942

You're kidding! Right? But having definitive proof as to who truly is Zhou Tong is not relative to this thread, but discussing the meaning of the word "or" is. I've put in countless hours to help this community in this regard, among others, and am now kindly being asked to start a new thread on the subject because the proof does not merit any discussion on this thread.

I think it's more an issue of how many different threads it's spilling over into.  It would be better if it was contained in a single thread if only because it's much easier for people to follow your reasoning and keep track of the connections you've found if that information is all in one place.  If you believe that Zhou's identity is relevant to other topics, you can always place a link to your thread in those topics.  There doesn't need to be a "who is Zhou" derail in every single thread about Bitcoinica or multiple topics on the same theme (this is how critical information gets overlooked because people rarely read every post in every single thread about the one topic).

Starting a specific thread about the issue of Zhou's identity need only involve posting an OP summarising the conclusions you've reached and then copying and pasting the relevant posts which you believe support your conclusions.  Right now that information is scattered across multiple threads and you're asking others to connect the dots for themselves like it's some kind of whodunnit game.  Many people don't feel like playing such games so your research will have more credibility if you present your conclusions along with your reasoning in one place.

All I can say is that this is Bitcoin. I don't believe it until I see six confirmations.
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August 02, 2012, 05:00:50 AM
 #943


You're kidding! Right? But having definitive proof as to who truly is Zhou Tong is not relative to this thread, but discussing the meaning of the word "or" is. I've put in countless hours to help this community in this regard, among others, and am now kindly being asked to start a new thread on the subject because the proof does not merit any discussion on this thread.


Don't pay attention to them. Some of them trolls, the others r interested in Zhou Tong's puppeteer not being revealed.
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August 02, 2012, 06:46:52 AM
 #944

Not only AurumXchange, Mtgox dont have a contact physical mail address in their site
or may be i missed to see it?

When you want to apply for AML Level 2 status, you can get their physical address easily on the website.

I had done it and got my account approved in about a week.

As per this post, AurumExchange HAS zhoutong address & they have enabled AML Level 2 status for zhoutong.
zhoutong is thief or fraud, so he may not/ can not/ will not/ do not go to police or law.
But why the hell AurumExchange not going to law or police?

They have his address , by which they gave him privileges to do business & not using that same address to send legal papers?

I see a similar pattern as btc-e did to supa.
Btc-e posted publicly that supa is a pedophile & asked forum users to FIND supa address, still they said that they have his ip tracked, address known .....& humiliated supa
& also in chat history posted by supa we all saw how much btc-e made supa to beg.

AurumExchange is the first to post publicly that zhoutong is thief/fraud/criminal.....
AurumExchange keep on saying that everything they do/did as per LAW ONLY.
How can they post something publicly with out knowing zhoutong as the real thief?
If they found out zhoutong as thief then why they are waiting to send legal papers to the address they HAVE?

I see a lot of cloudy things around AurumExchange.
They are telling as per law they do everything, still they are publicly showed zhoutong as thief with out going to police.
They so far didn't send any legal papers to zhoutong address they already have.
They are holding zhoutong money against law.
& they are just adding fuel to fire & watching.

zhoutong may be thief or not, but those (AurumExchange) who fingered/accused zhoutong as thief, so far NOT done/doing anything legally & just watching how forum members get angry, shouting, scolding zhoutong.



yes, my English is bad.
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August 02, 2012, 06:55:47 AM
 #945

Not only AurumXchange, Mtgox dont have a contact physical mail address in their site
or may be i missed to see it?

When you want to apply for AML Level 2 status, you can get their physical address easily on the website.

I had done it and got my account approved in about a week.

As per this post, AurumExchange HAS zhoutong address & they have enabled AML Level 2 status for zhoutong.
zhoutong is thief or fraud, so he may not/ can not/ will not/ do not go to police or law.
But why the hell AurumExchange not going to law or police?
...
They are holding zhoutong money against law.
& they are just adding fuel to fire & watching.

zhoutong may be thief or not, but those (AurumExchange) who fingered/accused zhoutong as thief, so far NOT done/doing anything legally & just watching how forum members get angry, shouting, scolding zhoutong.

yes, my English is bad.

I have no problem of them holding a potential thief's (our) money until he can 100% prove the origin of the money and disclose his "friend". Just imagine the accusations hold true and we let the thief get away with our money because we are correct, law-abiding citizens. It is more than coincidental that similar amounts were traded RIGHT after this hack. I am not at all convinced of the shitty friend story. Noone with an inch of intellect left can believe that story where the audience just needs to "trust" in the good man Zhou and his friend. I wouldn't be shocked after all three hacks and that shady company change that Zhou Tong played a lot of people here. For real, this is the internet. He might just look more like a crook, too and not play all hurt and innocent. I don't buy the pity the kid story anymore! We were made to believe it is a little boy with integrity for the longest time and it might be hard for some to realize they were deceived so badly.

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August 02, 2012, 07:11:21 AM
 #946

zhoutong may be thief or not, but those (AurumExchange) who fingered/accused zhoutong as thief, so far NOT done/doing anything legally & just watching how forum members get angry, shouting, scolding zhoutong.

The main issue is that this had been brought publicly on this very forum before by Zhou Tong himself, complaining his funds were stuck with AurumXchange.

In that kind of case, the only thing a company can do is to release a statement explaining what happened.

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August 02, 2012, 07:16:14 AM
 #947

zhoutong may be thief or not, but those (AurumExchange) who fingered/accused zhoutong as thief, so far NOT done/doing anything legally & just watching how forum members get angry, shouting, scolding zhoutong.

The main issue is that this had been brought publicly on this very forum before by Zhou Tong himself, complaining his funds were stuck with AurumXchange.

In that kind of case, the only thing a company can do is to release a statement explaining what happened.


Without blaming anyone, I would like to suggest a better way to handle similar situations in the future:

Release about half of the information to the suspect privately, and give him 12 hours to explain himself. This way you can use his explanation to check against the other half of the evidence, to determine whether it's a made up story or plausible truth.

After 12 hours, post the full evidence alongside with the explanation in public. It also protects privacy and encourages the community to act in a neutral manner.

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August 02, 2012, 07:34:04 AM
 #948

zhoutong may be thief or not, but those (AurumExchange) who fingered/accused zhoutong as thief, so far NOT done/doing anything legally & just watching how forum members get angry, shouting, scolding zhoutong.

The main issue is that this had been brought publicly on this very forum before by Zhou Tong himself, complaining his funds were stuck with AurumXchange.

In that kind of case, the only thing a company can do is to release a statement explaining what happened.

I hope calling some one thief publicly & doing nothing to prove that he is thief in legal way, is not applicable in any country.
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August 02, 2012, 07:35:24 AM
 #949

After watching that interview, it would seem that if Zhou were to release a video of himself in a conversation with a 3rd party (Skype), we would be able to identify his voice easily.

I find it interesting how "financial loss prevention" was a perk to get people to sign up.  A "feature."

But where have I seen that hat before?


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August 02, 2012, 08:42:46 AM
 #950

Not only AurumXchange, Mtgox dont have a contact physical mail address in their site
or may be i missed to see it?

When you want to apply for AML Level 2 status, you can get their physical address easily on the website.

I had done it and got my account approved in about a week.

As per this post, AurumExchange HAS zhoutong address & they have enabled AML Level 2 status for zhoutong.
zhoutong is thief or fraud, so he may not/ can not/ will not/ do not go to police or law.
But why the hell AurumExchange not going to law or police?

What you have quoted doesn't indicate that AurumXchange has Zhoutong's physical address.  I also suspect that he meant to post that you could get Mt Gox's physical address when you apply for Level 2 status as he has asked AurumXchange for their address several times (which he wouldn't have needed to do if he already had it).

AurumXchange has posted that there is an AML investigation under way. I'm not sure why you believe that they are not involving the law. 

All I can say is that this is Bitcoin. I don't believe it until I see six confirmations.
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August 02, 2012, 09:50:07 AM
 #951

After watching that interview, it would seem that if Zhou were to release a video of himself in a conversation with a 3rd party (Skype), we would be able to identify his voice easily.

I find it interesting how "financial loss prevention" was a perk to get people to sign up.  A "feature."

But where have I seen that hat before?




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August 02, 2012, 10:16:09 AM
 #952

I've been reading this thread on and off for a while now and I can't hold it in any longer.

Shouldn't a person be innocent until proven guilty?

To me, it doesn't seem like there's enough proof to confirm WITHOUT A DOUBT either way, although there is more evidence against ZT than for him.

It seems to me that there's more information the exchanges have but aren't able to release just now and until that happens, it's not possible to decide one way or the other.

If he's guilty then hang him, but let's say that he's cleared of all crimes. What will those who are baying for blood do then?

Will some of the accusers then admit that they've no integrity and that their word should count for nothing forever more unless ZT agrees to forgive them?

I don't think a simple "Oh, I'm really, really, really sorry!" would cut it after all the things that have been said but I guess integrity is only something some of the accusers expect from the accused.

If he turns out to be a 17yr old CHILD, can you imagine what it must feel like to have the whole community that you've been working with, turn on you? You've gone and lost a friend's money ($40K), you've been instrumental in damaging the community you helped to build and you have no idea who to turn to for help. I'd be pretty scared.

Someone of a more mean spirited nature might call it child abuse but it would certainly be no less than hateful bullying.

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August 02, 2012, 10:23:52 AM
 #953

Well I dont think ZT is the thief, but :

- He took great responsabilities. With those responsabilities comes risks of being personnaly involved. Only being verbally trashed in forums is pretty soft in my opinion.

- Some people here lost a lot. I lost ~45k$ and for me 40k represent a huge amount of money. Considering this, people have the right to be angry and voice their opinion.
You cant imagine how I am in pain knowing that people like patrick stateman and others from intersango are taking huge vacation and just generally avoiding the hard issues at play here while I am grinding my ass to recover my money and that I am kinda broke.

With that said, I still believe ZT is innocent and is doing his best, but I reserve my judgement and I respect other people rights to voice their opinion.

I would like to add that Intersango team responsability is as well huge and clear and that they deserve much more than the attacks that get thrown at them

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August 02, 2012, 10:29:54 AM
 #954

I've been reading this thread on and off for a while now and I can't hold it in any longer.

Shouldn't a person be innocent until proven guilty?

To me, it doesn't seem like there's enough proof to confirm WITHOUT A DOUBT either way, although there is more evidence against ZT than for him.

It seems to me that there's more information the exchanges have but aren't able to release just now and until that happens, it's not possible to decide one way or the other.

If he's guilty then hang him, but let's say that he's cleared of all crimes. What will those who are baying for blood do then?

Will some of the accusers then admit that they've no integrity and that their word should count for nothing forever more unless ZT agrees to forgive them?

I don't think a simple "Oh, I'm really, really, really sorry!" would cut it after all the things that have been said but I guess integrity is only something some of the accusers expect from the accused.

If he turns out to be a 17yr old CHILD, can you imagine what it must feel like to have the whole community that you've been working with, turn on you? You've gone and lost a friend's money ($40K), you've been instrumental in damaging the community you helped to build and you have no idea who to turn to for help. I'd be pretty scared.

Someone of a more mean spirited nature might call it child abuse but it would certainly be no less than hateful bullying.
Some people in here are already in such a bloodrage, that even if ZT turns out as a innocent child, they would still hang him, just to satisfy their bloodthirst.
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August 02, 2012, 10:35:08 AM
 #955

Not only AurumXchange, Mtgox dont have a contact physical mail address in their site
or may be i missed to see it?

When you want to apply for AML Level 2 status, you can get their physical address easily on the website.

I had done it and got my account approved in about a week.

As per this post, AurumExchange HAS zhoutong address & they have enabled AML Level 2 status for zhoutong.
zhoutong is thief or fraud, so he may not/ can not/ will not/ do not go to police or law.
But why the hell AurumExchange not going to law or police?

What you have quoted doesn't indicate that AurumXchange has Zhoutong's physical address.  I also suspect that he meant to post that you could get Mt Gox's physical address when you apply for Level 2 status as he has asked AurumXchange for their address several times (which he wouldn't have needed to do if he already had it).

AurumXchange has posted that there is an AML investigation under way. I'm not sure why you believe that they are not involving the law.  
AurumXchange keeps on asking zhoutong to give his address to send legal papers.
For to get AML level 2 status, zhoutong already sent his address.
Why AurumXchange not sending legal papers to that address?
They think its a fake address?
If fake then they can show the scanned copy of papers that the legal papers returned back to AurumXchange coz of no address exist or wrong address.
Why they not sending or if they sent, why they not showing proof of sending?
If some one called some one thief publicly, then legally they have to prove what, how, when, why he called thief.
If they didn't told anything to this forum, then we dont have to worry.

They accused zhoutong as thief, fraud...in AN OPEN PUBLIC FORUM & so far, more than 10+ days i think, not showing zhoutong as LEGALLY guilty in that same open public forum.
Why they are passing time instead of showing the same forum publicly their legal status & what they have done so far legally?
What AurumXchange hiding or saving?
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August 02, 2012, 10:46:36 AM
 #956

- He took great responsabilities. With those responsabilities comes risks of being personnaly involved.

Absolutely but at the same time you also have to accept you did business with a minor. This in no way absolves him in any way of his responsibilities but at the same time, some consideration must be given to his youth and inexperience.

Quote from: DarkEmi
Only being verbally trashed in forums is pretty soft in my opinion.

I agree that everything here is purely verbal but there have been a lot of cruel things said too. It's more of a witch hunt than anything else. Imagine being 17 and having to deal with people threatening you? There's a real chance that someone who's lost a lot of money could do violence towards him if they found out where he lived, simply because others believe he's guilty.

Quote from: DarkEmi
- Some people here lost a lot. I lost ~45k$ and for me 40k represent a huge amount of money. Considering this, people have the right to be angry and voice their opinion.

Voicing their opinion is not what everyone here is doing.

If I'd lost $45K I'd be raging - it's a huge amount of money to most people. I'd do everything I could to get that money back but without real evidence of someone's guilt, I wouldn't accept going after the next best thing (which in this case is someone with circumstantial evidence).

Quote from: DarkEmi
You cant imagine how I am in pain knowing that people like patrick stateman and others from intersango are taking huge vacation and just generally avoiding the hard issues at play here while I am grinding my ass to recover my money and that I am kinda broke.

I really feel for you. I really do. I've lost a similar amount of money in the past (still paying for it now) and I know who the culprit that took the money, I'm just not in a strong legal position to recover it.

Without an official statement from the people responsible for this disaster, it seems to me that ZT is doing more to resolve this situation than others. This doesn't mean he's innocent. It just leaves a lot of explaining from the responsible parties (seems like they're on holiday?!!!)

Quote from: DarkEmi
With that said, I still believe ZT is innocent and is doing his best, but I reserve my judgement and I respect other people rights to voice their opinion.

Right - and you've got a huuge stake in this issue. May I ask you why you think he's innocent because from where I'm sitting it sure does seem like he's more guilty than he is innocent?

Quote from: DarkEmi
I would like to add that Intersango team responsability is as well huge and clear and that they deserve much more than the attacks that get thrown at them

I agree. Why is everyone's efforts aimed at ZT? Is it because he was silly enough to try and help everyone? Shouldn't more be asked of Intersango? Shouldn't they at least release a statement saying what's happening?

If I were ZT and saw the disproportionate level of attacks against him/Intersango then I'd be wondering "Well stuff-it, I'm innocent - let them spend years trying to sort it out for themselves".

ZT: Don't give up. Remember you're helping the people who have been hurt most in this drama as well as clearing yourself. Sure, it's a lonely and scary time for you but your responsibility is to clear this mess up and move on.


*As ever, this post assumes that ZT is innocent until proven guilty.*

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August 02, 2012, 10:49:44 AM
 #957

It goes without saying that he is innocent until proven guilty, but I think we can all agree that there are some serious questions about Zhou Tong and whether he is who he says he is.

We should let the investigation continue and refrain from posting strong worded opinions, on either side of the argument, that are clearly not backed up by evidence. It would be better for everyone to follow along a more scientific approach and leave your emotionally based `beliefs` at home.

Zhou Tong could help to clear this matter up by simply doing a video skype call with a respected member of the community.

Is that really such a difficult thing to do?
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August 02, 2012, 10:56:40 AM
 #958

Quote from: dishwara
If fake then they can show the scanned copy of papers that the legal papers returned back to AurumXchange coz of no address exist or wrong address.
Why they not sending or if they sent, why they not showing proof of sending?
If some one called some one thief publicly, then legally they have to prove what, how, when, why he called thief.
If they didn't told anything to this forum, then we dont have to worry.

When something is being investigated legally, they can't comment on the situation. Even if they weren't investigating legally, it would be really unprofessional and irresponsible to share that information in a public forum.

I'm not entirely sure but from what I understand, it was ZT that made the situation public that AX had withheld his funds however one thing that puzzles me is it seems that AX released additional information regarding the account without ZT's permission. In the UK that would be against the law but I'm not sure what jurisdiction AX is in so I can't really comment on that.

Quote from: dishwara
They accused zhoutong as thief, fraud...in AN OPEN PUBLIC FORUM

I'm not sure they did - do you have a link/source?

Quote from: dishwara
Why they are passing time instead of showing the same forum publicly their legal status & what they have done so far legally?
What AurumXchange hiding or saving?

They'll only be allowed to share a very limited amount of information which won't be sufficient to expel/confirm doubts.

Only once the investigation has finished will they make any comment and even then they might only be able to say the funds have been released but nothing more.

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August 02, 2012, 11:04:11 AM
 #959

It goes without saying that he is innocent until proven guilty

Seems to me that a lot of people believe they've already been able to prove his guilt beyond a reasonable doubt...

whether he is who he says he is.

The only reason I'd have any suspicions of who he says he is would be if I believed he'd intended to steal everything when he started building his exchange. It seems to me that it'd be counter productive to claim you're a 17yr old when trying to build a business that requires credibility.

Quote from: greBit
Zhou Tong could help to clear this matter up by simply doing a video skype call with a respected member of the community.

I think it's a little more nuanced than that now.

1) If you already don't believe he's who he claims to be, it would be just as easy to dismiss the person on the Skype call as an actor (paid or otherwise).
2) A video call won't actually prove his age, only an approximate one and if the stereotype that Asians look young is to be believed, he might be 30 but look 22.
3) He could be putting his/his family's physical security at risk
4) Some people will only believe it if they have the skype call themselves and even then, see 1) and 2).

Quote from: greBit
Is that really such a difficult thing to do?

Not difficult to do at all but would it prove anything to the hardcore?

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August 02, 2012, 11:06:51 AM
 #960

Quote from: DarkEmi
With that said, I still believe ZT is innocent and is doing his best, but I reserve my judgement and I respect other people rights to voice their opinion.
Right - and you've got a huuge stake in this issue. May I ask you why you think he's innocent because from where I'm sitting it sure does seem like he's more guilty than he is innocent?
Too much foolish mistakes have been made in this theft, so either ZT was drunk when doing it, or he is innocent.

Quote from: DarkEmi
I would like to add that Intersango team responsability is as well huge and clear and that they deserve much more than the attacks that get thrown at them
I agree. Why is everyone's efforts aimed at ZT? Is it because he was silly enough to try and help everyone? Shouldn't more be asked of Intersango? Shouldn't they at least release a statement saying what's happening?
Intersango made a wise choice by going silent. Once there is no response for a long enough time, the lynch mob moves on to some other target.
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