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Author Topic: Statement about the suspect of recent Bitcoinica hack  (Read 124486 times)
Coinoisseur
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July 26, 2012, 04:29:13 PM
 #81

I know at least in the US you can still face charges for committing crimes against other criminals or suspect organizations.

People have been convicted for extorting others using evidence of criminal behavior, fyi.

Of course they can, however, legally bitcoin will be dismissed as a criminal money-laundering network for which there are no "victims".

And as for "QQ you are using a stateless currency so too bad", that is a statement I can understand when dealing directly through the bitcoin network. Dealing with a registered business and mixing in government currencies changes the situation significantly.
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dree12
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July 26, 2012, 04:30:41 PM
 #82

How convenient! And you know what, it is bullshit!
I would love to be proven wrong but fear that I won't be.

USD was taken as well, authorities are well versed in dealing with USD based crimes. Law enforcement has recovered virtual furniture and goods before so I also challenge the claim they would be incapable of dealing with bitcoins.
I see what you mean but do not believe similar cases are relevant to bitcoin, which has not been subject of any significant court proceedings.

Of course it's bullshit.  Most - if not all - of the countries involved have specialised computer and financial crimes units and police regularly call in civilian experts to assist with their investigations (especially universities).  There are plenty of technology experts they can call on for assistance.
Of course they can, however, legally bitcoin will be dismissed as a criminal money-laundering network for which there are no "victims".

The prosecution is not the financial burden of the victims in criminal cases - the only people who would have to worry about legal fees would be the accused.
Only when the "victims" have won the case will the accussed have to pay their fees and damages. That does not account for being able to financially propel a prosecution for the length of any investigations and court proceedings. Go on, ask a lawyer to work on your behalf for free in lieu of payment after success. Indeed, the accumulated cost of bringing this whole saga to court will cost more than what was originally stolen.

In theory a court case may be possible, but by considering just a few practicalities, it seems highly unlikely.


This is only vaguely related but:

At first everyone's like "Yeah, fuck state government and central authority. We don't need them to run our economy! Let the people take their money into their own hands! Bitcoin FTW!" In fact, this forum is full of slogans like that.

But as soon as people lose their precious coins due to their own carelessness and greed to a dubious enterprise in the East they all go running for law, police and central authority to rescue their asses.

And you know what happens when you ask authority for help: they will place their protective palms on your butts and slowly move their middle finger up your cavities.

I'd rather have a glass of champagne with that Chinese millionaire and take a look at his relic collection (and maybe steal one) than listen to a heard of sheep whining and complaining to authority.

Most of y'all early adopters will lose most of their coins anyway and still end up richer than today. Just you wait!

[/yadda yadda]
This man speaks sense.
Not everyone, just a particular kind of libertards.
You don't have the luxury to pick and choose. Bitcoin exists outside of institutional (legal) control and protection. We cannot have our cake and eat it.


BB.

Tell me, why are the vast majority of Bitcoin users not allowed to enlist government support because a few people don't like it? Nothing exists outside of institutional control and protection, and I can assure you most Bitcoin users are more than happy with that.
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July 26, 2012, 04:30:52 PM
 #83



The USD part if brought to the attention of the authorities would be at least investigated.  I can not say the same for the BTC part.  So far, no BTC theft that we know of has been treated as a real theft by any government agency.  

BTC theft for the time being may be treated similar to other "in game currency" thefts or ponzis.  

http://www.diedagain.com/eve-ponzi-scheme-nets-over-50k-in-swindled-profit

Object of theft is irrelevant. When crime is committed it must/should be reported to authorities regardless.  Someone steals a peanut from you - you have a legal right to seek justice. Bitcoin is no different since it carries value to a crime victim and obviously to one committing a crime, otherwise why steal in a first place. Value doesn't have to be material/financial in order to report theft to authorities, it could as well be sentimental, artistic, historic, etc.
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July 26, 2012, 04:31:18 PM
 #84

But still good luck building a case in china...
You must have had a HUGE account with bitcoinica building such an international case ranging into corruption havens such as china.
Not even if I possessed all bitcoinica funds I would waste my funds for taking a chance there. In relation to internationally enforced cases we are talking about peanuts here.


...but as I stated earlier not all bitcoiners are pacific hackers - I personally from what I know would fear for my life being involved in this.
For all those still hoping for their fund - write it off finally and enjoy the crime story evolving.

Law enforcement would be starting with the evidence MtGox has and following the trail from there.  I wouldn't assume that what's been revealed by the exchanges on here is all there is to find.

It's one thing to report a crime and have the investigation go nowhere - it's not the fault of whoever reported it if the investigation reaches a dead end.  It's almost impossible at this point to shed the belief that you're trying to hide something if it's not reported though.

Quote
So far, no BTC theft that we know of has been treated as a real theft by any government agency.

So far, no BTC theft of any size that we know of has been reported to a government agency.

Quote
Only when the "victims" have won the case will the accussed have to pay their fees and damages. That does not account for being able to financially propel a prosecution for the length of any investigations and court proceedings. Go on, ask a lawyer to work on your behalf for free in lieu of payment after success. Indeed, the accumulated cost of bringing this whole saga to court will cost more than what was originally stolen.

You're confusing civil and criminal law here.  People are talking about making a report to law enforcement for a criminal investigation for theft to determine who actually committed and/or profited from the MtGox compromise.  That's a quite separate issue to people suing Bitcoinica for the return of their funds.

All I can say is that this is Bitcoin. I don't believe it until I see six confirmations.
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July 26, 2012, 04:31:51 PM
 #85

But as soon as people lose their precious coins due to their own carelessness and greed to a dubious enterprise in the East they all go running for law, police and central authority to rescue their asses.

How is an inside job our carelessness?


Several months ago I was briefly entertaining the thought of putting some funds on bitcoinica just to try it out (I'm not familiar with daytrading at all). But I didn't. Because I didn't feel safe about it. Just a gut feeling. I then told myself "Maybe like 10 BTC just for fun", but didn't even do that.

If you're an amateur and risked a significant amount, fuck your coins. If you consider yourself a professional daytrader you should've known about the technology and the risk involved: fuck your coins.

The warnings were ALL OVER THE PLACE.


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July 26, 2012, 04:32:59 PM
 #86


Not everyone, just a particular kind of libertards.
You don't have the luxury to pick and choose. Bitcoin exists outside of institutional (legal) control and protection. We cannot have our cake and eat it.

BB.

This is extremely naive.

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dree12
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July 26, 2012, 04:34:06 PM
 #87


Not everyone, just a particular kind of libertards.
You don't have the luxury to pick and choose. Bitcoin exists outside of institutional (legal) control and protection. We cannot have our cake and eat it.

BB.

This is extremely naive.


Exactly. You don't have the luxury to pick and choose. By integrating with society, you are part of the legal system whether you like it or not.
BitBuster
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July 26, 2012, 04:38:04 PM
 #88

Tell me, why are the vast majority of Bitcoin users not allowed to enlist government support because a few people don't like it? Nothing exists outside of institutional control and protection, and I can assure you most Bitcoin users are more than happy with that.
On the contrary, have no point have I attempted to deny access to legal support. All I've said is that I think you're more likely to see a return by non-legal means.

Its clear that many here disagree with me and to them I say - bravo! I want everyone to initiate legal proceedings and try to put these people behind bars!


BB.
hatshepsut
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July 26, 2012, 04:41:07 PM
 #89

But as soon as people lose their precious coins due to their own carelessness and greed to a dubious enterprise in the East they all go running for law, police and central authority to rescue their asses.

How is an inside job our carelessness?


Several months ago I was briefly entertaining the thought of putting some funds on bitcoinica just to try it out (I'm not familiar with daytrading at all). But I didn't. Because I didn't feel safe about it. Just a gut feeling. I then told myself "Maybe like 10 BTC just for fun", but didn't even do that.

If you're an amateur and risked a significant amount, fuck your coins. If you consider yourself a professional daytrader you should've known about the technology and the risk involved: fuck your coins.

The warnings were ALL OVER THE PLACE.



Fuck your face bitch.
davout
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July 26, 2012, 04:41:21 PM
 #90

Exactly. You don't have the luxury to pick and choose. By integrating with society, you are part of the legal system whether you like it or not.
I speak as an exchange operator when I say : yup !

defxor
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July 26, 2012, 04:43:26 PM
 #91

Object of theft is irrelevant.

Exactly, as shown by the Dutch judges who sentenced persons for theft of virtual Runescape objects:

Quote
One of the defendants then appealed to the country's supreme court on the grounds that the stolen goods "were neither tangible nor material and, unlike for example electricity, had no economic value."

However, the judges declared that these virtual items had value because they represented "time and energy invested" to acquire.

http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/01/31/dutch-supreme-court-declares-runescape-theft-a-real-world-crime/
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July 26, 2012, 04:44:04 PM
 #92

we can trace it down to the last Satoshi
No you can't, you'll however see them slowly mix with all the rest of them and eventually every single coin will have a faint Bitcoinica smell.
You know, just like when you pee in the bathtub: was has been peed cannot be unpeed  Wink

goodlord666
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July 26, 2012, 04:44:46 PM
 #93


On the contrary, have no point have I attempted to deny access to legal support. All I've said is that I think you're more likely to see a return by non-legal means.

BB.

I like that sentence.
It would be interesting for a change if this could be settled somehow without conventional government involvement.

Somebody in an unrelated post was suggesting a new nation based on Bitcoin.

Is this not an opportunity to take responsibility into our own hands?



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July 26, 2012, 04:46:54 PM
 #94

We're not talking about $20, this is like hundreds of thousands of dollars.  We could have almost bought a half dozen Ferraris with the money that has been stolen from Bitcoinica's customers.  Even if you didn't take the money, you were responsible and IMHO it should be YOUR loss.  Since there is a direct link between you and the hack, as outlined in your "Truth 4: Even though there's evidence showing that I'm linked to this hack, I have absolutely no relationship with all previous hacks.", that means you are practically admitting to be involved in this hack.  I think that you should have to pay it back AND suffer a penalty.  If you steal a car, your penalty is not giving the car back, it's giving the car back PLUS JAILTIME BRO.

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July 26, 2012, 04:47:13 PM
 #95


On the contrary, have no point have I attempted to deny access to legal support. All I've said is that I think you're more likely to see a return by non-legal means.

BB.

I like that sentence.
It would be interesting for a change if this could be settled somehow without conventional government involvement.

Somebody in an unrelated post was suggesting a new nation based on Bitcoin.

Is this not an opportunity to take responsibility into our own hands?





So what do you suggest?  Rampant theft and if you get caught you return the funds, no harm no foul?

I'm into creating universes, smiting people, writing holy books and listening to prayers.
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July 26, 2012, 04:48:24 PM
 #96


On the contrary, have no point have I attempted to deny access to legal support. All I've said is that I think you're more likely to see a return by non-legal means.

BB.

I like that sentence.
It would be interesting for a change if this could be settled somehow without conventional government involvement.

Somebody in an unrelated post was suggesting a new nation based on Bitcoin.

Is this not an opportunity to take responsibility into our own hands?




How - exactly - are you going to persuade MtGox to unfreeze Bitcoinica's account?  They've already said they won't do so until the legal issues are resolved.

All I can say is that this is Bitcoin. I don't believe it until I see six confirmations.
goodlord666
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July 26, 2012, 05:01:18 PM
 #97


I like that sentence.
It would be interesting for a change if this could be settled somehow without conventional government involvement.

Somebody in an unrelated post was suggesting a new nation based on Bitcoin.

Is this not an opportunity to take responsibility into our own hands?

Quote
How - exactly - are you going to persuade MtGox to unfreeze Bitcoinica's account?  They've already said they won't do so until the legal issues are resolved.

I'm not too familiar with the details in this case. But "solving legal issues" doesn't equal "government intervention".

Government intervention could possibly fuck things up even more as they are probably the most ignorant party in all this (both technologically and philosophically).

Nobody seems to think about what tricky situation Zhou Tong may really be in. Perhaps the underworld has been putting pressure on him right from the start.

I forget which country exactly he's from, but maybe the legal punishment he faces when convicted by a conventional court are draconian and the concessions he makes to his customers, the community and his shadowy associates is the best he can do.

Play it cool, folks!

When stupid people argue, it's the judge that wins.



Coinoisseur
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July 26, 2012, 05:01:41 PM
 #98

A return of funds? Not really. But where is the hope of fund returns now after all that has transpired? What is the likelihood of all creditors of Bitcoinica receiving satisfactory compensation from this mysterious Chinese credit fraudster? Seems to me the carrot and stick of "going to the authorities will make it impossible for us to compensate you" has been held out so long that the carrot is looking pretty moldy.

Then there is the remaining Bitcoinica funds which will remain locked until their provenance can be established. Note the exchanges involved say Bitcoinica has been unhelpful in resolving the matter up to this point.

Tell me, why are the vast majority of Bitcoin users not allowed to enlist government support because a few people don't like it? Nothing exists outside of institutional control and protection, and I can assure you most Bitcoin users are more than happy with that.
On the contrary, have no point have I attempted to deny access to legal support. All I've said is that I think you're more likely to see a return by non-legal means.

Its clear that many here disagree with me and to them I say - bravo! I want everyone to initiate legal proceedings and try to put these people behind bars!


BB.
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July 26, 2012, 05:08:36 PM
 #99

i seriously doubt Zhou could've "discovered" all this info and forced a confession in less than 6h from Aurumexchanges Public announcement.
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July 26, 2012, 05:12:02 PM
 #100


I like that sentence.
It would be interesting for a change if this could be settled somehow without conventional government involvement.

Somebody in an unrelated post was suggesting a new nation based on Bitcoin.

Is this not an opportunity to take responsibility into our own hands?

Quote
How - exactly - are you going to persuade MtGox to unfreeze Bitcoinica's account?  They've already said they won't do so until the legal issues are resolved.

I'm not too familiar with the details in this case. But "solving legal issues" doesn't equal "government intervention".

Government intervention could possibly fuck things up even more as they are probably the most ignorant party in all this (both technologically and philosophically).

Nobody seems to think about what tricky situation Zhou Tong may really be in. Perhaps the underworld has been putting pressure on him right from the start.

I forget which country exactly he's from, but maybe the legal punishment he faces when convicted by a conventional court are draconian and the concessions he makes to his customers, the community and his shadowy associates is the best he can do.

Play it cool, folks!

When stupid people argue, it's the judge that wins.




Guess what, its none of our problem.

If he chose to play with fire from the start then he should burn in that fire.

No one ever forced him to deal with money laundering scumbags and if that is really the type of people he would associate himself with then its even more reason not to believe a single bit of info he so graciously provided.

...In the land of the stale, the man with one share is king... >> Clipse

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