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Author Topic: Statement about the suspect of recent Bitcoinica hack  (Read 124464 times)
ninjarobot
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July 31, 2012, 11:06:37 PM
 #741

Zhou Tong developed and supported an idea, as a child. Adults, with logic and reason dumped way too much money into a child's website. The website is sold to someone else. The child no longer runs or owns it, and it gets hacked. The forum's solution? Blame the child. What a sick bunch of losers they must be.

...said the guy who accepted $11.000 from that child.

I only committed a significant amount of money to Bitcoinica after it became a licensed FSP ran by the Bitcoin Consultancy group. (which I mistakenly believed to be the among best in the business at that time). Recent evidence from MtGox, Bitinstant and AurumXchange points directly at Zhou. And Zhou points to some mystery man named Chen. Please excuse me for being skeptical.
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July 31, 2012, 11:15:34 PM
 #742

Public clarification #1

"Transfer for a friend" is not "third-party transfer" and is not "money laundering".

I was not merely doing a simple transfer, I was doing a business with this friend by giving him preferential foreign exchange rates compared to his banks, for a return of a small commission.

The supposed procedure:

Friend's LR                ->   My LR (my revenue to perform the service)
My LR                      ->   My USD bank account (my own exchange activity through AurumXchange, et al.)
My USD bank account ->   X (my own exchange activity for forex)
X                            ->   My SGD bank account (my own withdrawal in another currency)
My SGD bank account ->   Friend's SGD bank account (my cost to perform the service)

Only the first and last part are related to both my friend and me. It's a common business procedure for all kinds of legitimate trades, and the procedure itself is completely legal.

The suspicion comes from a Bitcoinica hack which happens to involve an email address that I used for testing purpose on mtgox.com, and a transfer on AurumXchange at similar timeframe with an amount of similar order of magnitude. However, "third-party transfer" is strictly defined to be using an exchange service as an intermediary between two different accounts not controlled by the same person.

For example,

My LR -> AurumXchange
AurumXchange -> Friend's bank account

This is third party transfer, and it should trigger an AML investigation immediately.

A common use of third-party transfer is scamming:

Trader A: I want to buy some Bitcoins
Trader B: Sure, send the funds to *** (AurumXchange's bank account), and make sure you have transaction reference XXX
Trader A: Done
Trader B gets a Mt. Gox code from AurumXchange, and deposits into an unverified Mt. Gox account, and cash out Bitcoins.
Trader B never pays Trader A anything.
Trader A: You are a scammer! I'm reporting to the police with your bank account.
AurumXchange will be investigated, and Trader B may never appear again.

This IS the real (third-party transfer == money laundering) you're talking about.

EDIT:

I only post public clarification when too many people are questioning the same thing when I deem to be factually wrong and worth a public clarification. You should continue contacting me at bitcoin@zhoutong.com for other clarifications or explanations. You shouldn't expect me to read/reply every single post in this thread.

Founder of NameTerrific (https://www.nameterrific.com/). Co-founder of CoinJar (https://coinjar.io/)

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Matthew N. Wright
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July 31, 2012, 11:26:49 PM
 #743

Zhou Tong developed and supported an idea, as a child. Adults, with logic and reason dumped way too much money into a child's website. The website is sold to someone else. The child no longer runs or owns it, and it gets hacked. The forum's solution? Blame the child. What a sick bunch of losers they must be.

...said the guy who accepted $11.000 from that child.

I only commited a significant amount of money to Bitcoinica after it became a licensed FSP ran by the Bitcoin Consultancy group. (which I mistakenly believed to be the among best in the business at that time). Recent evidence from MtGox, Bitinstant and AurumXchange points directly at Zhou. And Zhou points to some mystery man named Chen. Please excuse me for being skeptical.

Meh, skeptical is fine. I'm skeptical myself because the Zhou talking here is -nothing- like the Zhou I've talked to either. Completely different personality. Maybe he's changed a bit. Maybe he's just busier. I'm just having a hard time swallowing the (now banned) abusive trolls here claiming hearsay as indisputable evidence is all.

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August 01, 2012, 12:03:01 AM
 #744

If someone falsely accused you of being a massive criminal and whipped up a mob after you with false and misleading information, you might change your tone too.

Public clarification #1

"Transfer for a friend" is not "third-party transfer" and is not "money laundering".

I was not merely doing a simple transfer, I was doing a business with this friend by giving him preferential foreign exchange rates compared to his banks, for a return of a small commission.

The supposed procedure:

Friend's LR                ->   My LR (my revenue to perform the service)
My LR                      ->   My USD bank account (my own exchange activity through AurumXchange, et al.)
My USD bank account ->   X (my own exchange activity for forex)
X                            ->   My SGD bank account (my own withdrawal in another currency)
My SGD bank account ->   Friend's SGD bank account (my cost to perform the service)

Only the first and last part are related to both my friend and me. It's a common business procedure for all kinds of legitimate trades, and the procedure itself is completely legal.

The suspicion comes from a Bitcoinica hack which happens to involve an email address that I used for testing purpose on mtgox.com, and a transfer on AurumXchange at similar timeframe with an amount of similar order of magnitude. However, "third-party transfer" is strictly defined to be using an exchange service as an intermediary between two different accounts not controlled by the same person.

For example,

My LR -> AurumXchange
AurumXchange -> Friend's bank account

This is third party transfer, and it should trigger an AML investigation immediately.

A common use of third-party transfer is scamming:

Trader A: I want to buy some Bitcoins
Trader B: Sure, send the funds to *** (AurumXchange's bank account), and make sure you have transaction reference XXX
Trader A: Done
Trader B gets a Mt. Gox code from AurumXchange, and deposits into an unverified Mt. Gox account, and cash out Bitcoins.
Trader B never pays Trader A anything.
Trader A: You are a scammer! I'm reporting to the police with your bank account.
AurumXchange will be investigated, and Trader B may never appear again.

This IS the real (third-party transfer == money laundering) you're talking about.

EDIT:

I only post public clarification when too many people are questioning the same thing when I deem to be factually wrong and worth a public clarification. You should continue contacting me at bitcoin@zhoutong.com for other clarifications or explanations. You shouldn't expect me to read/reply every single post in this thread.

Well that explains that.  It's noble of you to stay so above the fray here while others fling random insults and accusations back and forth.  I hope your funds are released soon as there is no justification to keep them frozen.

"Money is like manure: Spread around, it helps things grow. Piled up in one place, it just stinks."
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August 01, 2012, 12:12:15 AM
 #745

Public clarification #1

"Transfer for a friend" is not "third-party transfer" and is not "money laundering".

I was not merely doing a simple transfer, I was doing a business with this friend by giving him preferential foreign exchange rates compared to his banks, for a return of a small commission.

The supposed procedure:

Friend's LR                ->   My LR (my revenue to perform the service)
My LR                      ->   My USD bank account (my own exchange activity through AurumXchange, et al.)
My USD bank account ->   X (my own exchange activity for forex)
X                            ->   My SGD bank account (my own withdrawal in another currency)
My SGD bank account ->   Friend's SGD bank account (my cost to perform the service)

Only the first and last part are related to both my friend and me. It's a common business procedure for all kinds of legitimate trades, and the procedure itself is completely legal.

The suspicion comes from a Bitcoinica hack which happens to involve an email address that I used for testing purpose on mtgox.com, and a transfer on AurumXchange at similar timeframe with an amount of similar order of magnitude. However, "third-party transfer" is strictly defined to be using an exchange service as an intermediary between two different accounts not controlled by the same person.

For example,

My LR -> AurumXchange
AurumXchange -> Friend's bank account

This is third party transfer, and it should trigger an AML investigation immediately.

A common use of third-party transfer is scamming:

Trader A: I want to buy some Bitcoins
Trader B: Sure, send the funds to *** (AurumXchange's bank account), and make sure you have transaction reference XXX
Trader A: Done
Trader B gets a Mt. Gox code from AurumXchange, and deposits into an unverified Mt. Gox account, and cash out Bitcoins.
Trader B never pays Trader A anything.
Trader A: You are a scammer! I'm reporting to the police with your bank account.
AurumXchange will be investigated, and Trader B may never appear again.

This IS the real (third-party transfer == money laundering) you're talking about.

EDIT:

I only post public clarification when too many people are questioning the same thing when I deem to be factually wrong and worth a public clarification. You should continue contacting me at bitcoin@zhoutong.com for other clarifications or explanations. You shouldn't expect me to read/reply every single post in this thread.

So, you've had another day to think of another excuse, and you come here thinking we're going to believe you??

I would have had more respect for you if you had just admitted you stole the money and were returning it to avoid jail time.

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August 01, 2012, 12:16:20 AM
 #746

Public clarification #1

"Transfer for a friend" is not "third-party transfer" and is not "money laundering".

I was not merely doing a simple transfer, I was doing a business with this friend by giving him preferential foreign exchange rates compared to his banks, for a return of a small commission.

The supposed procedure:

Friend's LR                ->   My LR (my revenue to perform the service)
My LR                      ->   My USD bank account (my own exchange activity through AurumXchange, et al.)
My USD bank account ->   X (my own exchange activity for forex)
X                            ->   My SGD bank account (my own withdrawal in another currency)
My SGD bank account ->   Friend's SGD bank account (my cost to perform the service)

Only the first and last part are related to both my friend and me. It's a common business procedure for all kinds of legitimate trades, and the procedure itself is completely legal.

The suspicion comes from a Bitcoinica hack which happens to involve an email address that I used for testing purpose on mtgox.com, and a transfer on AurumXchange at similar timeframe with an amount of similar order of magnitude. However, "third-party transfer" is strictly defined to be using an exchange service as an intermediary between two different accounts not controlled by the same person.

For example,

My LR -> AurumXchange
AurumXchange -> Friend's bank account

This is third party transfer, and it should trigger an AML investigation immediately.

A common use of third-party transfer is scamming:

Trader A: I want to buy some Bitcoins
Trader B: Sure, send the funds to *** (AurumXchange's bank account), and make sure you have transaction reference XXX
Trader A: Done
Trader B gets a Mt. Gox code from AurumXchange, and deposits into an unverified Mt. Gox account, and cash out Bitcoins.
Trader B never pays Trader A anything.
Trader A: You are a scammer! I'm reporting to the police with your bank account.
AurumXchange will be investigated, and Trader B may never appear again.

This IS the real (third-party transfer == money laundering) you're talking about.

EDIT:

I only post public clarification when too many people are questioning the same thing when I deem to be factually wrong and worth a public clarification. You should continue contacting me at bitcoin@zhoutong.com for other clarifications or explanations. You shouldn't expect me to read/reply every single post in this thread.

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August 01, 2012, 12:17:59 AM
 #747

If someone falsely accused you of being a massive criminal and whipped up a mob after you with false and misleading information, you might change your tone too.

Well that explains that.  It's noble of you to stay so above the fray here while others fling random insults and accusations back and forth.  I hope your funds are released soon as there is no justification to keep them frozen.

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https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=30204.0

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August 01, 2012, 12:19:52 AM
 #748


So, you've had another day to think of another excuse, and you come here thinking we're going to believe you??

I would have had more respect for you if you had just admitted you stole the money and were returning it to avoid jail time.

So a fact becomes "excuse". And you're not believing it without reading.

And people should do things for "respect", not for truths.

You are very pragmatic and I like it. I respect you now, happy?

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Matthew N. Wright
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August 01, 2012, 12:38:28 AM
 #749


So, you've had another day to think of another excuse, and you come here thinking we're going to believe you??

I would have had more respect for you if you had just admitted you stole the money and were returning it to avoid jail time.

So a fact becomes "excuse". And you're not believing it without reading.

And people should do things for "respect", not for truths.

You are very pragmatic and I like it. I respect you now, happy?

Returning the money will not avoid jail time. However it might reduce the amount of time spent. Judges seems to like remorse. However that is not what has been expressed :/



Why would he get jail time? Was there a crime committed? What crime was that? Which country was it committed in? Who committed it? I'm missing some details here...

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August 01, 2012, 12:43:31 AM
 #750

@Zhou Tong  Would you please make a video of yourself telling the Bitcoin community how hard you are trying to resolve this bad situation.
Many people have difficulty with believing your are real when everyone admits they've never met you. Also, a sign with current date would be a help. We need to provide to the shady parts by bringing a little light into those spaces.

When people are acting retarded on a forum you just ignore them. I get ignored on occasion  Grin, and when I do I move on.

Your in a difficult spot, I hope it improves and the community can get back to more productive endeavors.

For Bitcoin to be a true global currency the value of BTC needs always to rise.
If BTC became the global currency & money supply = 100 Trillion then ⊅1.00 BTC = $4,761,904.76.
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August 01, 2012, 12:44:51 AM
 #751

@ZHOU: Did you provide this Information in Detail to AurumXchange, so that they have all Information they asked for? (I guess for them you can't stay that vague)
@AurumXchange: Is sufficient Information provided to drop money laundering investigations?

I openly boycott the Bitcoinica Consultancy team or Intersango: Donald Norman, Patrick Strateman and Amir Taaki
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August 01, 2012, 12:46:10 AM
 #752

@ZHOU What is the status on the FIAT-Recovery?

I openly boycott the Bitcoinica Consultancy team or Intersango: Donald Norman, Patrick Strateman and Amir Taaki
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August 01, 2012, 12:49:13 AM
 #753

I knew I should have emphasized my text...crap.

For Bitcoin to be a true global currency the value of BTC needs always to rise.
If BTC became the global currency & money supply = 100 Trillion then ⊅1.00 BTC = $4,761,904.76.
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August 01, 2012, 12:49:42 AM
 #754

How about paying everyones claims @ 100% before you get any respect...

Bitcoinica still has not given me 50% of my claim of 600 BTC
INTERSANGO can go down with bitcoinica for abandoning customers
Alberto Armandi is a SCAMMER
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August 01, 2012, 12:52:11 AM
 #755

I only post public clarification when too many people are questioning the same thing

And yet nothing in that post explains you posting on your QQ that you're selling LR, which turns out to come from the same LR account you claim "the hacker" created.

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August 01, 2012, 12:58:13 AM
 #756

I only post public clarification when too many people are questioning the same thing

And yet nothing in that post explains you posting on your QQ that you're selling LR, which turns out to come from the same LR account you claim "the hacker" created.



He tried:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=95795.msg1063716#msg1063716

But overall that's a problem - he talks a lot, but doesn't answer the necessary questions to the point to solve the issue.

I openly boycott the Bitcoinica Consultancy team or Intersango: Donald Norman, Patrick Strateman and Amir Taaki
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August 01, 2012, 01:05:58 AM
 #757

@Zhou Tong  Would you please make a video of yourself telling the Bitcoin community how hard you are trying to resolve this bad situation.
Many people have difficulty with believing your are real when everyone admits they've never met you. Also, a sign with current date would be a help. We need to provide to the shady parts by bringing a little light into those spaces.
his twitter account pre-dating bitcoin (feb 2009) is proof that Zhou Tong is a real person.. well, as much proof as a twitter account could provide. 

i think it would be a good idea to post some sort of video, but that wouldn't do much for proving innocence in Bitcoinicagate.

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August 01, 2012, 01:06:42 AM
 #758

@ZHOU What is the status on the FIAT-Recovery?

Waiting for Patrick Murck's instruction and to my best knowledge, he is waiting for Bitcoinica's instruction.

I can't start recovery of the funds before I'm told "OK" by either party. In case Patrick Murck doesn't want to hold the stolen funds, I can be in trouble if I have asked Chen Jianhai to transfer the funds "for the purpose of recovery".

I'll co-operate to any legal actions to my best ability. Until someone (Patrick Murck or Bitcoinica) complains publicly, you should assume that I'm doing my best.

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August 01, 2012, 01:12:43 AM
 #759

@ZHOU What is the status on the FIAT-Recovery?

Waiting for Patrick Murck's instruction and to my best knowledge, he is waiting for Bitcoinica's instruction.

I can't start recovery of the funds before I'm told "OK" by either party. In case Patrick Murck doesn't want to hold the stolen funds, I can be in trouble if I have asked Chen Jianhai to transfer the funds "for the purpose of recovery".

I'll co-operate to any legal actions to my best ability. Until someone (Patrick Murck or Bitcoinica) complains publicly, you should assume that I'm doing my best.

Since I assume that you do your best, I also assume you will transfer all recovered funds (140.000) and not retain anything to cover your friend until this AurumXchange issue is solved. Am I right?

I openly boycott the Bitcoinica Consultancy team or Intersango: Donald Norman, Patrick Strateman and Amir Taaki
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August 01, 2012, 01:14:33 AM
 #760

...
I can't say it was a waste though as I still feel this community is stale and lacking character (or the character it has chosen is basically anti-social and troll infested). I mean, look at this thread as a clear example. The only times anyone is passionate and involved in something is when they're out for blood. It's really sad. Whenever a member of the bitcoin community stands up for what they believe in and makes a mistake, they are treated like some sort of plague by the trolls here. It's a vivid reflection of world politics, "I can't stand what's going on but I refuse to get involved, learn a skill and help change it!". Zhou Tong developed and supported an idea, as a child. Adults, with logic and reason dumped way too much money into a child's website. The website is sold to someone else. The child no longer runs or owns it, and it gets hacked. The forum's solution? Blame the child. What a sick bunch of losers they must be.
...
Matthew, while I am probably not your greatest fan, you are right on that this "community" contains a lot of people that seems to have a really bad character.
But lets face it, eventually Bitcoin will replace a lot of banking related things, and I think what we see is only the beginning. I guess to some of those "trolls" Bitcoin is a real threat. Do you know how much revenue the banks and other entities make by just, well, keeping and transfering our money? It is really gigantic, and Bitcoin will, not today or tomorrow, but eventually, cost them a few billions. So I think we should get used to have tons of people in the Bitcoin world, which have only one agenda, and that is to destroy Bitcoin.
Think about it, we even have passionate "fans" of litecoin, solidcoin, or whatever name the daily scam-coin has, who would love to destroy Bitcoin in favor for their scam-coins. And now guess what all those people in the fiat world would love to do, once they see their billions of easy profit in danger.
And then there are also tons of frustrated guys out there, that just love to do some witch hunt, and currently ZT is the perfect victim for them.
We have to learn to deal with people from both of those groups.
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