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Author Topic: Statement about the suspect of recent Bitcoinica hack  (Read 124602 times)
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August 02, 2012, 01:09:55 PM
 #981


Chen stole Zhou's identity. Used it for credit card fraud and steal money from Bitcoinica. Australian police would suffice, Zhou resided there during the theft.

And whatever you just wrote above directly applies to Zhou, he claimed that he got funds back from Chen by threatening with Chinese police.

As of right now Zhou is black mailing.



That being the case, can ZT give us some indication as to why you've not gone to the Australian police? (If your reasons would make you vulnerable to the angry mob you could at least acknowledge the question).

Agreed that police involvement would appear to scare 'Chen' into co-operating. It's actually also part of the reason why I have doubts as to whether Chen exists. That being said, I believe ZT has additional leverage on Chen (e.g. knowing other information on him/family). It's fair to say there's very little info here and what there is could conceivably be made up (i.e. Chen doesn't exist).

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August 02, 2012, 01:12:01 PM
 #982

I may be missing something, but where is the evidence of identity theft? Do you have other sources apart from a post made by the `Zhou Tong` ?

This is a fair point.

I suspect that if there is any additional proof it would only be available from the exchanges. It's unlikely the exchanges are going to make this public any time soon.

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August 02, 2012, 01:13:49 PM
 #983

It's unlikely the exchanges are going to make this public any time soon.

It's funny how that works. They don't mind libeling and breaking their privacy agreement with a user to make claims that he's a crook publicly, but they don't want to post proof and run off of the forums with their tails between their legs once legal action is threatened. Priceless.

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August 02, 2012, 01:15:12 PM
 #984

Why do I get the feeling that a lot of FUD is being spread here? Well, I don't know.  Roll Eyes

Please ZT, can I be on your payroll too?

Always good to be sceptical. I'm not trying to spread FUD. Any uncertainty and doubt already exists and if you read my posts, I'm neither for or against ZT so I'd be poor value as a paid sock-puppet.

It would be foolish to accept anything I say as fact because I've no more credibility than the next person but I've not made any claims and I'm unlikely to as I don't have access to any new information.

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August 02, 2012, 01:20:22 PM
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Whoa, what? What 400k? Did anyone steal 400K? Is Zhou connected to someone stealing 400k? Where did you get that figure from?

The last time I checked this thread, Aurumxchange was holding $40k of Zhou's money or something to that nature, and Chen was caught stealing something as well, which Zhou is trying to get back from him. Refresh my memory.


You seem totally biased.
Yes, someone stole 40k btc and 40k$ or around that figure, in bitcoins and $, which amount if I am correct to around 400k$, and yes, someone connected to Zhou stole that amount.

I am not saying that Zhou did it, I indeed think he did not and is "just" connected to the thief, but please get down from your high horses.

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August 02, 2012, 01:21:25 PM
 #986

It's unlikely the exchanges are going to make this public any time soon.

It's funny how that works. They don't mind libeling and breaking their privacy agreement with a user to make claims that he's a crook publicly, but they don't want to post proof and run off of the forums with their tails between their legs once legal action is threatened. Priceless.

I've been looking through the thread but I don't see anything conclusive that says they pointed the finger. I've probably missed it as there are 50 pages.

Did they do the finger pointing first? I.e. they made it public first AND also disclosed private information.

Can I also clarify that this isn't AurumXchange we're talking about here but Bitcoinica?

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August 02, 2012, 01:31:17 PM
 #987

So imagine for 400k ?
Whoa, what? What 400k? Did anyone steal 400K? Is Zhou connected to someone stealing 400k? Where did you get that figure from?

The last time I checked this thread, Aurumxchange was holding $40k of Zhou's money or something to that nature, and Chen was caught stealing something as well, which Zhou is trying to get back from him. Refresh my memory.


There was 40k BTC and 40k USD taken.

ZT stated something along the lines of the BTC being sold at $7.25? was it? (might have to spend a bit more time reading and less time playing public defender to find it)

40k x 7.25 = $290000 + $40k = $330,000

The current retail value of that 40k puts the total at or over $400,000....

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August 02, 2012, 01:32:18 PM
 #988

It's unlikely the exchanges are going to make this public any time soon.

It's funny how that works. They don't mind libeling and breaking their privacy agreement with a user to make claims that he's a crook publicly, but they don't want to post proof and run off of the forums with their tails between their legs once legal action is threatened. Priceless.

I've been looking through the thread but I don't see anything conclusive that says they pointed the finger. I've probably missed it as there are 50 pages.

Did they do the finger pointing first? I.e. they made it public first AND also disclosed private information.

Can I also clarify that this isn't AurumXchange we're talking about here but Bitcoinica?

It's the first post of the other thread. This theead is just Zhou's response to the madness as that thread turned into a witch hunt almost instantly.

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August 02, 2012, 01:34:39 PM
 #989

It's unlikely the exchanges are going to make this public any time soon.

It's funny how that works. They don't mind libeling and breaking their privacy agreement with a user to make claims that he's a crook publicly, but they don't want to post proof and run off of the forums with their tails between their legs once legal action is threatened. Priceless.

I've been looking through the thread but I don't see anything conclusive that says they pointed the finger. I've probably missed it as there are 50 pages.

Did they do the finger pointing first? I.e. they made it public first AND also disclosed private information.

Can I also clarify that this isn't AurumXchange we're talking about here but Bitcoinica?

It's the first post of the other thread. This theead is just Zhou's response to the madness as that thread turned into a witch hunt almost instantly.

aye, I stopped following about 20 pages back ;p

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August 02, 2012, 01:37:06 PM
 #990

So the poster DarkEmi was confusing this event related to a identity theft for a small amount with Bitcoinica's funds (which are held by Intersango/Tihan)?

Zhou started this thread to provide information about the identity of the MtGox account hacker and he's currently seeking to recover funds totalling over $300,000 from Chen.  It's disingenuous to claim that this thread is solely about the $40,000 and $5,000 currently being held by AurumXchange.  Zhou, as much as anyone, has made it about Chen and the recovery of funds.

This thread doesn't have the capacity to determine whether Zhou is Chen, whether Zhou's friend exists or whether the $40,000 is legitimate money because it doesn't have access to the kind of evidence which would establish those things - we likely never will.

All I can say is that this is Bitcoin. I don't believe it until I see six confirmations.
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August 02, 2012, 02:13:36 PM
 #991

It's the first post of the other thread. This theead is just Zhou's response to the madness as that thread turned into a witch hunt almost instantly.

I can't believe that was only a week ago - seems like a month ago when I first read that.

It is a bit unusual to release so much information without first speaking to the accused first. Doesn't seem particularly sensible either as it leaves them very exposed legally. Regardless, I can see why you think it's a case of double standards.

The $40K friend and Chen appear to be two separate people is this definitely the case or have I made that conclusion up in my own mind?

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August 02, 2012, 02:22:28 PM
 #992

A police report from China really isn't what you think it would be. If like me, you live in a Western country and have a decent police force you might be mistaken in thinking that this would be a good way to go about things.

In China, you can 'influence' how a police officer sees things with something as simple as a carton of cigarettes. If you don't want to deal with a strong headed police officer then you can see the political head of that region and explain to them why the matter should go away. Also, when you're not present locally, it would be very hard to make a report, especially for something so complex.

It's one thing for the local police in China to deal with a local theft of physical goods but it's quite another for them to deal with a crypto-currency with multiple international jurisdictions.

While all this may be true, it doesn't stop Zhou from filing a police report.  However, no matter how corrupt, the police would probably ask simple questions like "What is his name?, what is his phone number? " etc.  Since Zhou would be unable to provide this, the police would quickly realize Zhou is making this guy up.  You and I can't demand Zhou provide proof, but they would certainly demand proof when Zhou filed an official report.

This is why until Zhou files a police report, a reasonable person has to assume he is making it all up.

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August 02, 2012, 02:25:28 PM
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Without blaming anyone, I
Release about half of the information to the suspect privately, and give him 12 hours to explain himself.
Why? You managed to digest AulumXchange's accusation, find that your identity had been stolen, find how this was in direct relation to the Bitcoinica "hack", work out who exactly was responsible and post a 1400 word defence of yourself just an hour after their announcement?

If you were instead given advanced warning and 12 hours to do all that, this forum would die because not even it would be able to process the amount of bullshit you would produce!

Shouldn't a person be innocent until proven guilty?
You are correct. Zhou should be given the benefit of doubt, I understand that. But it must also be understood that when Zhou offers stories without evidence, refuses to elaborate and answer (the many) questions put to him, it makes it very difficult indeed to trust him and is immensely frustrating for those who are trying to find the truth - whatever it is.

If only ZT had done the same. Instead he was transparent and vocal.
He's been selectively vocal. He has not been transparent because he refuses to answer some questions but it all to happy to provide responses to others. Indeed, at this point we cannot prove that any of the answers given are even correct - thus undermining "transparency" further.

Users have claimed that Zhou Tong works with criminals -- Yahoo's last CEO Scott Thompson lied about his tech degree, that must mean Yahoo are all liars and work with liars.  Roll Eyes

Who is Chen Jianhai?

Chen Jianhai is my previous business associate. He was very familiar with credit card fraud and by my observations he's quite active in financial black markets. He didn't know much technical stuff personally but he has many technical people working with him everyday. He heard about Bitcoin from me last year from a random chat, and I have not communicated with him this year.
This and Zhou's other clear indications that he is some sort of criminal gangster shows that Zhou willingly engaged with this person on a "professional" level and despite knowing this, still left highly valuable access instruments within the grasp of such a person.


This thread is full of bullshit from all sides. There are many actors here who are able to throw significant spotlight and clarification on many of the issues but refuse to do so. All this does is arouse suspicion, anger and feelings of powerlessness. This crime is a plague on both houses.


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August 02, 2012, 02:38:32 PM
 #994

Without blaming anyone, I would like to suggest a better way to handle similar situations in the future:

Release about half of the information to the suspect privately, and give him 12 hours to explain himself. This way you can use his explanation to check against the other half of the evidence, to determine whether it's a made up story or plausible truth.

After 12 hours, post the full evidence alongside with the explanation in public. It also protects privacy and encourages the community to act in a neutral manner.

BULLSHIT.

No reasonable business "release half the information to the suspect privately" there is no need to give a suspect 12 hours advance warning on how to craft his fabrications. You seem to have been able to whip up quite a few interesting and compellingly contradictory stories in 63 minutes, what would you do for the other 10 hours and 57 minutes? Perhaps create a couple of more identities for you future scams, or develop 17 new websites to fleece people out of their money?

You fucked up, and abrogated any consideration of privacy. You created a cluster fuck of a gambling system, ran it illegally as a minor (or ran it illegally under an assumed name without due process) got caught up in it and bailed out to some gangsters who thought they were smarter than you. What part of that deserves privacy? Where exactly in this very public seppuku of your entire life did you come to think you wanted "Privacy". Was it when you lied about your identity? Was it when you lied about your actions in recovering funds for the "investors"? Perhaps when you decided to proclaim your intimate relationship with Notorious Relic Dealer Chen as public property?  

Sorry sonny, but you decided to make this a public (and obviously fraudulent) mea culpa, and you have absolutely no right to any claim of privacy. You decided to shit this all over the bitcoin world, and now you will sit back and suffer as the whole bitcoin world brings it back to you. You will be investigated, you will be charged, and you will be held accountable. Whether you are some Obama loving otaku pinhead, Notorious Relic Dealer Chen's right hand coolie, or just some lonely, unloved ex-pat student struggling to makes ends meet pimpin' between Singapore and Australia, you will be found, you will be brought to justice, and you will learn the consequences of your actions.

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August 02, 2012, 02:39:02 PM
 #995

While all this may be true, it doesn't stop Zhou from filing a police report.  However, no matter how corrupt, the police would probably ask simple questions like "What is his name?, what is his phone number? " etc.  Since Zhou would be unable to provide this, the police would quickly realize Zhou is making this guy up.  You and I can't demand Zhou provide proof, but they would certainly demand proof when Zhou filed an official report.

I agree with what you. I'd add that I don't think it's quite as simple as that for ZT. There might be a multitude of reasons why he doesn't want to go to the police (I could speculate those reasons but it would just be speculation).

This is why until Zhou files a police report, a reasonable person has to assume he is making it all up.

I would agree too except if I were to assume he's making that up, it would be on the basis that I assume he's a liar which would mean I'd be as well saying he's guilty.

Instead, I'd rather say that this isn't any reasonable defence against why his accounts were used until he can prove Chen's existence.

The onus is definitely on him to prove that this person exists. Whilst a police report would provide the necessary proof, it certainly will prevent him from obtaining the rest of the stolen funds. Thing is, how else can Chen be proven to exist without turning Chen against him?

In terms of strategy, it's a case of what is the most important outcome?

1) Retrieving the funds only - keep Chen sweet
2) Punishing the thief only - Report to police
3) Both of the above - Keep Chen sweet, then make a police report once the funds are recovered

1) seems to be the route ZT wants to go
2) would result in fewer funds being returned but justice would be served
3) It's likely the bargaining chip in this would be that no police report is made if the funds are returned

Naturally this assumes that Chen exists.

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August 02, 2012, 02:45:30 PM
 #996

Shouldn't a person be innocent until proven guilty?
You are correct. Zhou should be given the benefit of doubt, I understand that. But it must also be understood that when Zhou offers stories without evidence, refuses to elaborate and answer (the many) questions put to him, it makes it very difficult indeed to trust him and is immensely frustrating for those who are trying to find the truth - whatever it is.

I can't disagree. ZT really needs to provide evidence or at least explain why he can't.

If only ZT had done the same. Instead he was transparent and vocal.
He's been selectively vocal. He has not been transparent because he refuses to answer some questions but it all to happy to provide responses to others. Indeed, at this point we cannot prove that any of the answers given are even correct - thus undermining "transparency" further.

I accept that too. ZT - you need to at least acknowledge the tough questions.

This thread is full of bullshit from all sides. There are many actors here who are able to throw significant spotlight and clarification on many of the issues but refuse to do so. All this does is arouse suspicion, anger and feelings of powerlessness. This crime is a plague on both houses.

Who else can help clarify? So far all we've heard from is ZT in this thread.

This is why ZT should have listened to everyone telling him to shut up and get a lawyer. By only selectively answering you give the impression that there's something to hide. By not even acknowledging the questions, it seems like you're trying to avoid things.

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August 02, 2012, 02:53:05 PM
 #997

Without blaming anyone, I would like to suggest a better way to handle similar situations in the future:

Release about half of the information to the suspect privately, and give him 12 hours to explain himself. This way you can use his explanation to check against the other half of the evidence, to determine whether it's a made up story or plausible truth.

After 12 hours, post the full evidence alongside with the explanation in public. It also protects privacy and encourages the community to act in a neutral manner.

I never understood why you wanted to protect the privacy of a person you claim framed you for a $500,000 theft.  Do whatever you want Zhou, but I am posting right now to tell you this:

With the interest I have received, we should be hiring a PI early next week.  This PI will locate you in Australia and allow us to file an official theft complaint with the Australian police.

It will then be between you and the police to determine if "Chen" does indeed exist.  If he doesn't, YOU will be the one going to prison for several years.  If he does happen to exist, then you can be fully exonerated in the community, and we can turn our attention on him.  Be advised that the police are not going to accept your wish to keep his identity secret.

This one simple step is going to flush all the bullshit stories that have been floating around this forum.

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August 02, 2012, 02:57:59 PM
 #998

No reasonable business "release half the information to the suspect privately" there is no need to give a suspect 12 hours advance warning on how to craft his fabrications.

You're right - no reasonable business would release that kind of information at all because if they're wrong they're going to get sued.


You seem to have been able to whip up quite a few interesting and compellingly contradictory stories in 63 minutes, what would you do for the other 10 hours and 57 minutes? Perhaps create a couple of more identities for you future scams, or develop 17 new websites to fleece people out of their money?

If you've lost a lot of money in this, I can understand why you're so angry but what you're saying right now is you're absolutely, 100% certain he's done this. Without a shadow of a doubt, you know he's a liar. You conclusively know that he's stolen all the Bitcoins and cash. If this is the case, why don't you call the Australian police yourself? They would be able to locate him within a few days, possibly a day considering the sums at stake here.


You fucked up, and abrogated any consideration of privacy.

This isn't true even if he's guilty.

You created a cluster fuck of a gambling system, ran it illegally as a minor (or ran it illegally under an assumed name without due process) got caught up in it and bailed out to some gangsters who thought they were smarter than you.

I wouldn't go as far as to call exchanges gambling systems any more than I'd call a kitchen knife murdering equipment.

Sorry sonny, but you decided to make this a public (and obviously fraudulent) mea culpa, and you have absolutely no right to any claim of privacy. You decided to shit this all over the bitcoin world, and now you will sit back and suffer as the whole bitcoin world brings it back to you. You will be investigated, you will be charged, and you will be held accountable. Whether you are some Obama loving otaku pinhead, Notorious Relic Dealer Chen's right hand coolie, or just some lonely, unloved ex-pat student struggling to makes ends meet pimpin' between Singapore and Australia, you will be found, you will be brought to justice, and you will learn the consequences of your actions.

Whilst I accept that you don't believe there's even the remotest possibility that anything ZT has said is true, imagine for a second if you will that he's eventually cleared of all these charges and it turns out that Chen does exist, how will you feel about saying all these things to an innocent minor?

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August 02, 2012, 03:10:45 PM
 #999

I never understood why you wanted to protect the privacy of a person you claim framed you for a $500,000 theft.  Do whatever you want Zhou, but I am posting right now to tell you this:

I don't think he's wanting to protect his privacy. He's simply playing the best strategy to ensure his $40K isn't under threat.

Scenario1 - He gives up the ID of the thief. The thief naturally won't return the funds because he's going to face consequences regardless. ZT stands to have the $40K (which is still in his name as it's in his account) used to pay back the stolen funds.

Scenario2 - He waits until the funds are recovered and then allows the community to wreak it's revenge. It sure does look like he's trying to protect Chen's identity but in fact is also operating in his own best interest.


With the interest I have received, we should be hiring a PI early next week.  This PI will locate you in Australia and allow us to file an official theft complaint with the Australian police.

Why waste time and money hiring a PI? There's enough information here for the police to find him easily. If the local police are involved it could be done in a day. I'm surprised those with a stake in this haven't already called the Australian police. I can only guess that they haven't called the police because they would prefer to recover 100% of their funds in a few weeks rather than 45% (or whatever it would be once the police are involved) in a year or two when the case is finally wound up.


It will then be between you and the police to determine if "Chen" does indeed exist.  If he doesn't, YOU will be the one going to prison for several years.  If he does happen to exist, then you can be fully exonerated in the community, and we can turn our attention on him.  Be advised that the police are not going to accept your wish to keep his identity secret.

This one simple step is going to flush all the bullshit stories that have been floating around this forum.

For certain, ZT will have to hand over Chen's info. It'll be the proof everyone is looking for. However, it means that those with a financial stake in this stand a good chance of losing financially for that immediate proof. For ZT, he might feel that he would never see his friend's $40K again and then he'd owe someone else $40K.

You're right about one thing though - it would definitively prove which side is bullshitting. Either the angry mob are lying (that they know for certain ZT has stolen their funds) or that ZT is a cunning linguist*

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August 02, 2012, 03:10:49 PM
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While all this may be true, it doesn't stop Zhou from filing a police report.  However, no matter how corrupt, the police would probably ask simple questions like "What is his name?, what is his phone number? " etc.  Since Zhou would be unable to provide this, the police would quickly realize Zhou is making this guy up.  You and I can't demand Zhou provide proof, but they would certainly demand proof when Zhou filed an official report.

I agree with what you. I'd add that I don't think it's quite as simple as that for ZT. There might be a multitude of reasons why he doesn't want to go to the police (I could speculate those reasons but it would just be speculation).

This is why until Zhou files a police report, a reasonable person has to assume he is making it all up.

I would agree too except if I were to assume he's making that up, it would be on the basis that I assume he's a liar which would mean I'd be as well saying he's guilty.

Instead, I'd rather say that this isn't any reasonable defence against why his accounts were used until he can prove Chen's existence.

The onus is definitely on him to prove that this person exists. Whilst a police report would provide the necessary proof, it certainly will prevent him from obtaining the rest of the stolen funds. Thing is, how else can Chen be proven to exist without turning Chen against him?

In terms of strategy, it's a case of what is the most important outcome?

1) Retrieving the funds only - keep Chen sweet
2) Punishing the thief only - Report to police
3) Both of the above - Keep Chen sweet, then make a police report once the funds are recovered

1) seems to be the route ZT wants to go
2) would result in fewer funds being returned but justice would be served
3) It's likely the bargaining chip in this would be that no police report is made if the funds are returned

Naturally this assumes that Chen exists.

I am okay for #1 only if 100% funds are restored. No bullshit "he sold it at 7.2" thats NOT our problem.

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