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Author Topic: Statement about the suspect of recent Bitcoinica hack  (Read 124459 times)
zhoutong
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July 30, 2012, 08:14:05 AM
 #521

I authorize AurumXchange to transfer funds only because they might be uncomfortable to return the funds to me due to their suspicion. I never admit the funds are stolen. I'm just trying to reach an agreement with them that even IF the funds are stolen, they are still doing the right thing. And there's nothing wrong for them to send the funds to Bitcoinica either, if I'm proven to be innocent, because of my explicit authorization. This case, they don't have to hold the funds forever and the liquidity of both parties can be restored.

You don't see anything wrong with your friend's legitimate LR funds being released to bitcoinica? Your friend would lose his $40k, not restore his liquidity.

No. I would simply retain $40K from those recovered from Chen Jianhai, and convert that to Singapore Dollar and send back to my friend.

If later found out that the recoverable stolen funds exceed $140K in total, then it will be my personal liability to deal with Bitcoinica directly. In any case, AurumXchange shouldn't be holding the funds forever. $40K is only a small part of my total liability (this becomes my "liability" to Bitcoinica once I recover full amounts from Chen Jianhai), so there's no reason to not trust and co-operate with me when I can deliver my promise of the $100K and 20,000 BTC.

Founder of NameTerrific (https://www.nameterrific.com/). Co-founder of CoinJar (https://coinjar.io/)

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July 30, 2012, 08:25:33 AM
 #522

then make it public once the refund is done. Making this information public can in no way harm you. Why are you so averse to doing it? He's a criminal, and doesn't deserve your protection. Any of the criminals involved in this should already know: returning the funds doesn't mean this is over. This isn't over until justice has been served.

+1

...so there's no reason to not trust and co-operate with me when I can deliver my promise of the $100K and 20,000 BTC.

LOL

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July 30, 2012, 08:42:00 AM
 #523

I'm a little behind on this thread, but does anybody remember this guy? https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=673

http://binarysecurity.webs.com/index.html#about
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July 30, 2012, 09:05:16 AM
 #524

I authorize AurumXchange to transfer funds only because they might be uncomfortable to return the funds to me due to their suspicion. I never admit the funds are stolen. I'm just trying to reach an agreement with them that even IF the funds are stolen, they are still doing the right thing. And there's nothing wrong for them to send the funds to Bitcoinica either, if I'm proven to be innocent, because of my explicit authorization. This case, they don't have to hold the funds forever and the liquidity of both parties can be restored.

You don't see anything wrong with your friend's legitimate LR funds being released to bitcoinica? Your friend would lose his $40k, not restore his liquidity.

No. I would simply retain $40K from those recovered from Chen Jianhai, and convert that to Singapore Dollar and send back to my friend.


Seriously? You would send your friend stolen funds? If I were your friend I would not accept them. If an investigation took place he would become involved since the stolen funds would be traced to him. You say he is reading this thread so he should be well aware of what's going on.
zhoutong
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July 30, 2012, 09:26:18 AM
 #525

I authorize AurumXchange to transfer funds only because they might be uncomfortable to return the funds to me due to their suspicion. I never admit the funds are stolen. I'm just trying to reach an agreement with them that even IF the funds are stolen, they are still doing the right thing. And there's nothing wrong for them to send the funds to Bitcoinica either, if I'm proven to be innocent, because of my explicit authorization. This case, they don't have to hold the funds forever and the liquidity of both parties can be restored.

You don't see anything wrong with your friend's legitimate LR funds being released to bitcoinica? Your friend would lose his $40k, not restore his liquidity.

No. I would simply retain $40K from those recovered from Chen Jianhai, and convert that to Singapore Dollar and send back to my friend.


Seriously? You would send your friend stolen funds? If I were your friend I would not accept them. If an investigation took place he would become involved since the stolen funds would be traced to him. You say he is reading this thread so he should be well aware of what's going on.

If there is any investigation I would respond that the originally legitimate funds of $40k (which I can show proof to police) were transferred to Bitcoinica instead.

Fiat money is not Bitcoin. Your one dollar and my one dollar are identical. A scammer sending you $0.01 by mistake shouldn't taint your entire bank account. I just have to make sure the sums are correct and Bitcoinica gets everything Chen Jianhai promised to pay back.

Founder of NameTerrific (https://www.nameterrific.com/). Co-founder of CoinJar (https://coinjar.io/)

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July 30, 2012, 09:54:01 AM
 #526

I believe so. He handled this matter very professionally and I'm going to continue recovering the fiat money from the hackers.

Why the plural? Is this just a Freudian slip or are there more hackers involved besides Chen?
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July 30, 2012, 09:55:47 AM
 #527

I believe so. He handled this matter very professionally and I'm going to continue recovering the fiat money from the hackers.

Why the plural? Is this just a Freudian slip or are there more hackers involved besides Chen?

Sorry. It was a typo.

Founder of NameTerrific (https://www.nameterrific.com/). Co-founder of CoinJar (https://coinjar.io/)

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July 30, 2012, 09:56:23 AM
 #528

There is more than a single person behind the user zhoutong. There is a ghost writer following the instructions of another person which dictates every answer. A single person could not express such astonishing English skills so well garnished with technical details.

There is enough contradictions in every response from zhoutong which indicates the information is consistently fictional.

Not one single character or description is factual.

A script is in place and the user behind the zhoutong avatar is only following the lines.

FTFY
sarpar
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July 30, 2012, 09:59:39 AM
 #529

No. I would simply retain $40K from those recovered from Chen Jianhai, and convert that to Singapore Dollar and send back to my friend.

If later found out that the recoverable stolen funds exceed $140K in total, then it will be my personal liability to deal with Bitcoinica directly. In any case, AurumXchange shouldn't be holding the funds forever. $40K is only a small part of my total liability (this becomes my "liability" to Bitcoinica once I recover full amounts from Chen Jianhai), so there's no reason to not trust and co-operate with me when I can deliver my promise of the $100K and 20,000 BTC.

In the situation you are in I forbid you to retain anything at all as long there are liabilities to Bitcoinica customers. Your personal liabilities come second and I personally don't care.
In case you are behind all that (And I want to keep this option open) that move is just a smart way of circumventing AML-investigations. You also wouldnt be responsible to prove the legitimacy of these funds anymore. Comparing the total amount of returned vs. stolen funds that leaves still the possibility of you making a profit in this hack (hypothetical situation)
Also moving the risk of goverment seizure of your friends funds or lengthy unblocking procedure to Bitcoinica customers is just unfair. We as customers were not involved in money laundering YOUR FRIEND WAS so he has to take the risk!

I openly boycott the Bitcoinica Consultancy team or Intersango: Donald Norman, Patrick Strateman and Amir Taaki
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July 30, 2012, 10:00:48 AM
 #530

Seriously? You would send your friend stolen funds? If I were your friend I would not accept them. If an investigation took place he would become involved since the stolen funds would be traced to him. You say he is reading this thread so he should be well aware of what's going on.

If Zhou's friend had a large amount of LR he wanted to convert then presumably he has the funds to retain a lawyer who can advise him about the wisdom of agreeing to such an arrangement.  His friend should certainly be made aware that his funds are now the subject of an AML investigation, though, before he's asked to agree to them being moved anywhere else or to receiving them back through an indirect means.  The more roundabout, intervening transactions there are between him giving the funds to Zhou to exchange and him receiving his funds back, the more it's going to look like money laundering to any investigator (especially if the source from which the funds are being returned can't be confirmed).

Quote
In any case, AurumXchange shouldn't be holding the funds forever. $40K is only a small part of my total liability (this becomes my "liability" to Bitcoinica once I recover full amounts from Chen Jianhai), so there's no reason to not trust and co-operate with me when I can deliver my promise of the $100K and 20,000 BTC.

Neither you nor I know whether AurumXchange can release funds which are the subject of an AML investigation and if so under what circumstances and to whom.  Whatever persuasive arguments you may believe you have for them releasing those funds, the only people they should be listening to regarding that are their own legal advisors and their AML regulator.  There is no reason whatsoever they should risk legal fall-out themselves for the convenience of others.  They most certainly didn't create this clusterfuck and the have every right to protect themselves first and foremost from the legal risks which the money launderer brought to their door step.

Quote
It does taint your account to receive funds from an account linked to criminal activity, and this taint can be linked to real, established charges.

And often the whole account will be frozen until the legitimacy of all the funds in the account can be established.

All I can say is that this is Bitcoin. I don't believe it until I see six confirmations.
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July 30, 2012, 10:03:24 AM
 #531

Chen Jianhai is reading this thread. He just made a screenshot. Proof:



 Grin

muyuu
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July 30, 2012, 10:03:51 AM
 #532

Fiat money is not Bitcoin. Your one dollar and my one dollar are identical. A scammer sending you $0.01 by mistake shouldn't taint your entire bank account. I just have to make sure the sums are correct and Bitcoinica gets everything Chen Jianhai promised to pay back.

It does taint your account to receive funds from an account linked to criminal activity, and this taint can be linked to real, established charges.

GPG ID: 7294199D - OTC ID: muyuu (470F97EB7294199D)
forum tea fund BTC 1Epv7KHbNjYzqYVhTCgXWYhGSkv7BuKGEU DOGE DF1eTJ2vsxjHpmmbKu9jpqsrg5uyQLWksM CAP F1MzvmmHwP2UhFq82NQT7qDU9NQ8oQbtkQ
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July 30, 2012, 10:04:16 AM
 #533

Please, be rational.

Of course...

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=95795.msg1062656#msg1062656


Currently I can recover at most 20,000 BTC and $140,000 from Chen Jianhai.

(...)

AFAIK he used Blockchain's mixing service, but we don't expect the fees to be returned because it's impossible to identify the funds anyway. (Also Blockchain has offered a 0.5% bonus for those people who facilitated the laundering.)

The average price he sold at should be around $7.2, including the exchanging fees. At this price point we are short $42,000. I'll see if it's possible to get this from Chen Jianhai, but quite unlikely. I doubt the effectiveness of Chinese police as well, because he's very likely to have "Guanxi" to deal with his financial activities (which I can't decide whether legal or not). In any case, he has been acting in a very naive way and I assume he still has freedom today because of his guanxi, not technical sophistication.

(...)

"We" means community?

Who is short $42,000? The thief is never "short" of any money. It must be Bitcoinica customers.

AFAIK he used Blockchain's mixing service, but the community doesn't expect the fees to be returned because it's impossible to identify the funds anyway. (Also Blockchain has offered a 0.5% bonus for those people who facilitated the laundering.)

The average price he sold at should be around $7.2, including the exchanging fees. At this price point the community is short $42,000. I'll see if it's possible to get this from Chen Jianhai, but quite unlikely. I doubt the effectiveness of Chinese police as well, because he's very likely to have "Guanxi" to deal with his financial activities (which I can't decide whether legal or not). In any case, he has been acting in a very naive way and I assume he still has freedom today because of his guanxi, not technical sophistication.


He's right! I plugged in community and it now makes perfect sense. I can't believe I have been so wrong on this issue. Will everybody forgive me? BlowBobs on the house.

~Bruno~ (ain't cackling!)
zhoutong
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July 30, 2012, 10:15:15 AM
 #534

No. I would simply retain $40K from those recovered from Chen Jianhai, and convert that to Singapore Dollar and send back to my friend.

If later found out that the recoverable stolen funds exceed $140K in total, then it will be my personal liability to deal with Bitcoinica directly. In any case, AurumXchange shouldn't be holding the funds forever. $40K is only a small part of my total liability (this becomes my "liability" to Bitcoinica once I recover full amounts from Chen Jianhai), so there's no reason to not trust and co-operate with me when I can deliver my promise of the $100K and 20,000 BTC.

In the situation you are in I forbid you to retain anything at all as long there are liabilities to Bitcoinica customers. Your personal liabilities come second and I personally don't care.
In case you are behind all that (And I want to keep this option open) that move is just a smart way of circumventing AML-investigations. You also wouldnt be responsible to prove the legitimacy of these funds anymore. Comparing the total amount of returned vs. stolen funds that leaves still the possibility of you making a profit in this hack (hypothetical situation)
Also moving the risk of goverment seizure of your friends funds or lengthy unblocking procedure to Bitcoinica customers is just unfair. We as customers were not involved in money laundering YOUR FRIEND WAS so he has to take the risk!

If you are worried about getting your money back from Bitcoinica. You should write to Patrick, Amir and Donald immediately. They are blocking the refunding process, and not anyone else.

The fund transfers are personal dealings with Patrick Murck, who represents multiple major creditors in Bitcoinica. I have never received any official communication from Bitcoinica since the hack. The 15,000 BTC returned is being held in escrow and it's not yet Bitcoinica's or Bitcoinica customers' money. The point of transferring the funds to a trusted third party is to provide safe and legal withholding of stolen properties and facilitate refunding process in the future.

AurumXchange blocked my funds only because of the suspicion of me being involved in the hack. Regardless of the outcome of the investigation, the money either belongs to me, or Bitcoinica. If it belongs to Bitcoinica it should be transferred to Patrick Murck, and if it belongs to me it should be transferred to me. However here I make a public authorization that AurumXchange can transfer to Patrick Murck if it belongs to me. This means that AurumXchange doesn't have to continue holding the funds because of their inability to determine the rightful owner of the funds.

My personal interest is that AurumXchange should not be holding the funds for more than 5 days even if they refuse the exchange service. I stand on the side of Bitcoinica customers so obviously I will (and I have demonstrated my good faith to) settle efficiently with Bitcoinica customers.

No matter how you think, this issue has not yet reached a legal level of resolution. Bitcoinica still owes you 100% of your claimed amount and I personally (or even Chen Jianhai) owe everyone 0% like always. Only when Bitcoinica officially recognize and identify their stolen properties, the liability status will change.

The best way to get your money as soon as possible is to contact Bitcoinica immediately and ask them to take actions. Money is not a problem here because I will definitely transfer whatever I can recover.

Founder of NameTerrific (https://www.nameterrific.com/). Co-founder of CoinJar (https://coinjar.io/)

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zhoutong
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July 30, 2012, 10:24:52 AM
 #535

I think all parties involved (except for Bitcoinica) have already posted all the information that should be made publicly available (and even some information that shouldn't).

If you need me to clarify any statement or evidence, please contact me directly at bitcoin@zhoutong.com. I will not post anything on this forum if I feel unnecessary or uncomfortable. Also I can concentrate on getting the money to refund Bitcoinica customers with minimal delays.

From this point you should not expect any explanation from me on this forum. However you are free to make my email replies public if you wish (please state this in your email). Any non-response should be treated as "no comment".

Also any official/legal correspondence can be mailed to:

po.box.zhoutong.com
PO Box 465
Carlton South VIC 3053
Australia

(Yes, please address it with "po.box.zhoutong.com" instead of my name.)

Founder of NameTerrific (https://www.nameterrific.com/). Co-founder of CoinJar (https://coinjar.io/)

Donations for my future Bitcoin projects: 19Uk3tiD5XkBcmHyQYhJxp9QHoub7RosVb
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July 30, 2012, 10:26:05 AM
 #536

AurumXchange posted that there are AML-investigations going on, so just sending these funds into the trust wont be so easy. Therfore you are unfair by retaining 40.000 from Chen and avoid further investigation of your personal actions.

Suggestion:

1. send all of Chens funds to the Trust
2. support the aurumXchange investigations including AML investigations
3. If you can prove they are legally your fund you get them returned
4. If you cant prove that they will get into the Bitcoinica Trust Fund
5. If the Trust fund exceeds the amount stolen in the hack you get it returned anyhow

Thats how it works and in no other fishy way. Your friend has to wait - but if he can trust your words shouldnt be afraid of anything

I openly boycott the Bitcoinica Consultancy team or Intersango: Donald Norman, Patrick Strateman and Amir Taaki
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July 30, 2012, 10:36:24 AM
 #537

@AurumXchange : Did Zhou so far provide evidence that these 40.000 "for a friend" are legitimate? Is he cooperative in that point?

I openly boycott the Bitcoinica Consultancy team or Intersango: Donald Norman, Patrick Strateman and Amir Taaki
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July 30, 2012, 10:42:43 AM
 #538

You are really going to send your friend stolen funds ? huh

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July 30, 2012, 10:43:24 AM
 #539

@AurumXchange : Did Zhou so far provide evidence that these 40.000 "for a friend" are legitimate? Is he cooperative in that point?

I can imagine they will not say anything in public during what is now in progress behind the scenes.

This could also be the reason why ZT is suddenly so cooperative: FEAR

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July 30, 2012, 10:47:34 AM
 #540

AurumXchange blocked my funds only because of the suspicion of me being involved in the hack. Regardless of the outcome of the investigation, the money either belongs to me, or Bitcoinica. If it belongs to Bitcoinica it should be transferred to Patrick Murck, and if it belongs to me it should be transferred to me. However here I make a public authorization that AurumXchange can transfer to Patrick Murck if it belongs to me. This means that AurumXchange doesn't have to continue holding the funds because of their inability to determine the rightful owner of the funds.

My personal interest is that AurumXchange should not be holding the funds for more than 5 days even if they refuse the exchange service. I stand on the side of Bitcoinica customers so obviously I will (and I have demonstrated my good faith to) settle efficiently with Bitcoinica customers.

AurumXchange blocked your funds because of suspicion of you being involved in the hack AND suspicion of money laundering. Because of this AurumXchange is obliged to report this to police and hold the funds pending an AML investigation. AurumXchange cannot simply release the funds until the AML investigation is completed and the source of funds are identified as legitimate. I do not know how long the process would take to complete, but I'd imagine it could take weeks.
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