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Author Topic: Statement about the suspect of recent Bitcoinica hack  (Read 124487 times)
augustocroppo
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August 02, 2012, 03:20:09 PM
 #1001


Why are you quoting mlawrence as LoupGaroux ?

Different users.
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August 02, 2012, 03:25:52 PM
 #1002

Wow, a ZT style excuse. Different users, sure....  Cheesy
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August 02, 2012, 03:27:49 PM
 #1003


Can't..tell..if...serious...

He's talking about the quote tag having the wrong author in it I believe. Probably just an editing mistake.

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August 02, 2012, 03:28:55 PM
 #1004


Why are you quoting mlawrence as LoupGaroux ?

Different users.

Ooops - copy pasted the wrong tag - corrected now, thanks.

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August 02, 2012, 03:30:37 PM
 #1005

Wow, a ZT style excuse. Different users, sure....  Cheesy

It was a genuine mistake on my part. Apologies again to mlawrence and LoupGaroux.

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August 02, 2012, 03:40:12 PM
 #1006

Personally, I think ZT only has two things to worry about.

1) Losing his friend's $40K
2) Not recovering 100% of stolen funds for Bitcoinica users
3) Being known as a grass by his criminal associates


1) If he's innocent, the $40K can't legally be used to cover the losses. If the $40K is actually his, there might be a moral duty to do so.

2) If he's not interested in recovering as much as he can for Bitcoinica users and clearing his name, he should just go to the police. Someone might force his hand and just call his local police station but this would mean taking responsibility for delaying and reducing payments to the victims.

3) I guess that's the price you pay for dealing with questionable characters (unless you didn't know before hand).


* Edited: Removed local police station details

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August 02, 2012, 03:59:22 PM
 #1007

Apology accepted, but not needed. I accept grammatical errors as sine qua non for the passion exhibited on this forum.

Now- on to your points raised:

You are quite right, any business throwing out unfounded allegations in a public manner could get sued, if it is malicious libel. This appeared to be more of a public announcement directed at the hundreds of users of this community who are owed hundreds of thousands of dollars that have "disappeared" under the fiduciary responsibility of Zhou Tong who accept those funds into escrow.

I haven't lost a penny in this debacle. The only dog I have in this fight, as I quite openly stated in another thread several weeks ago, is to keep a solar flare burning on this issue so that criminal scams of all types will be found out, the guilty parties discovered, and the integrity of our community restored, along with the funds taken from the victims of these scams. His lies are numerous, and his mis-directions are clearly stated for all to see. Building layer upon layer of the story does not change the truth of the issue.

By bringing his story into a public forum, and pleading his case in front of the court of public opinion "Zhou Tong" has given up any reasonable claim to privacy in this affair. You cannot have it both ways, where only some of the story can be spread around to fit the agenda- either all of the story is private, or none of the story is private. Given that "Zhou Tong" himself started this very thread, and made very public claims of very private matters, it seems somewhat disingenuous to ask for privacy when the same consideration is given of his actions and information.

Bitconica was categorically NOT an exchange. It was an leveraged hedge speculation site based on projected future moves in the value of bitcoin against fiat. The site in fact had to rely on outside exchanges for conversion of fiat into bitcoin, and for the movement of payments. Speculation is a form of gambling, albeit one with a more socially acceptable reputation than others, but it is gambling none the less, and there is ample case law history that online gambling IS illegal in many countries. Your kitchen knife is safe from character assassination until it is wielded by my ex-wife, and then it became very nearly "murdering equipment".

Will I feel remorse if by some inconceivable alignment of the planets and the absolute veracity of the Mayan Calendar exonerating "Zhou Tong" from any involvement in this matter? No. He is by no stretch of the imagination "innocent", he crafted the gambling system, promoted it, lied about function and returns, lied about his own abilities when he sought angels to adopt the failure that it was becoming, and has consistently mislead, covered up and shaded the facts to support his own position to the detriment of all. I am not even convinced that he is a minor at all. There seems to be a growing body of proof that he may be buried under yet another layer of false identity, and no person could remain 17 for the length of time that he has claimed to be that age... at some point a birthday will jump up and kick him in the teeth, even if he is using some obscure Confucian calendar, he ages. And, consider the fact of where he chose to play his games. If you want to be considered a child for protection as a minor, do not misrepresent yourself as an adult in an adult world, and play at adults games. By his own statements he is the close associate of someone he alleges is a serious criminal, is this a child who should be accorded some special consideration because he didn't know what he was doing? No.

And a small edit in light of point #3 above about being know as a "grass" (or squealer in the US)... with the level of criminal he is implicating in this matter, and the not insignificant amounts of money involved- this grass will not be long for this world in that community. A good soldier will shut up and take his stripes in this type of case, do his time and be welcome back into the company of criminals afterwards. A squealer won't make it past the first couple of days, giving up Notorious Relic Dealer Chen, and his ilk.

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August 02, 2012, 04:02:42 PM
 #1008

Personally, I think ZT only has two things to worry about.

1)
2)
3)
Comedy gold! Smiley


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August 02, 2012, 04:41:19 PM
 #1009

It was a genuine mistake on my part. Apologies again to mlawrence and LoupGaroux.

No worries.  I can only wish to be as well written as LG.

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August 02, 2012, 04:46:46 PM
 #1010

I must say that IMO LoupGaroux has more reasonable position on some points of this matter than that of Matthew Wright.

At the same time this bitcoinica story is bizzare^n . So many times before we get over one bizzare event they pile up another bizzare craziness on top of it. I, frankly, do not know what to think. Wait and see here.


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August 02, 2012, 05:18:13 PM
 #1011

Well, first of all we can forget the alter-ego story. Tihan Seale has confirmed that Zhou indeed is who he says he is, and I see no reason why he should lie. I am not against trying to find out the truth though, and it is obvious Zhou is not telling us the entire story for whatever reasons. I really think trading 40k the day after the hack is an absolute no-go and still highly suspicious. I therefore understand why AurumXchange never gave him a warning ahead of time. If you have such a serious suspicion, you can't be asked to warn the top suspect. Zhou needs to explain to me and the people on this forum now why he would be crazy enough to trade on that specific day, what kind of money it was, and what relationship he holds with his friend.

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August 02, 2012, 05:55:06 PM
 #1012

Apology accepted, but not needed. I accept grammatical errors as sine qua non for the passion exhibited on this forum.

Very gracious of you Smiley

Quote from: LoupGaroux
This appeared to be more of a public announcement directed at the hundreds of users of this community who are owed hundreds of thousands of dollars that have "disappeared" under the fiduciary responsibility of Zhou Tong who accept those funds into escrow.

A public announcement is quite right under the circumstances. Disclosing the personal information was a step too far (certainly until it had been fully investigated).

Quote from: LoupGaroux
I haven't lost a penny in this debacle.

Me neither. Perhaps I should have stated this earlier.

Quote from: LoupGaroux
The only dog I have in this fight, as I quite openly stated in another thread several weeks ago, is to keep a solar flare burning on this issue so that criminal scams of all types will be found out, the guilty parties discovered, and the integrity of our community restored, along with the funds taken from the victims of these scams.

Hear, hear!

Quote from: LoupGaroux
His lies are numerous, and his mis-directions are clearly stated for all to see. Building layer upon layer of the story does not change the truth of the issue.

I can't tell which are lies and which are truths simply because I don't think the evidence is present to say that ZT has lied (quite possible I've missed it).

There's certainly a lack of evidence to back up his defence but that isn't proof of guilt or lying.


Quote from: LoupGaroux
By bringing his story into a public forum, and pleading his case in front of the court of public opinion "Zhou Tong" has given up any reasonable claim to privacy in this affair.

Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't it AX that forced ZT to respond in a public forum because they were the first to make mention of any of this (even before filing a police report for what they believed was fraud/theft)? (That's not meant to read snarky, it's just my understanding is the opposite of yours).


Quote from: LoupGaroux
Given that "Zhou Tong" himself started this very thread, and made very public claims of very private matters, it seems somewhat disingenuous to ask for privacy when the same consideration is given of his actions and information.

Have you seen the other thread that this thread is a response to? I'd forgotten about it too (despite it being only a week old). Here it is for your convenience: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=95738.0

It seems to me that ZT was forced to respond publicly, no?


Quote from: LoupGaroux
Bitconica was categorically NOT an exchange. It was an leveraged hedge speculation site based on projected future moves in the value of bitcoin against fiat. The site in fact had to rely on outside exchanges for conversion of fiat into bitcoin, and for the movement of payments. Speculation is a form of gambling, albeit one with a more socially acceptable reputation than others, but it is gambling none the less, and there is ample case law history that online gambling IS illegal in many countries.

Conceded


Quote from: LoupGaroux
Will I feel remorse if by some inconceivable alignment of the planets and the absolute veracity of the Mayan Calendar exonerating "Zhou Tong" from any involvement in this matter? No.

I wouldn't say he's innocent either. He created the system, he promoted it and then he sold it. I would debate the amount of responsibility he has though.


Quote from: LoupGaroux
He is by no stretch of the imagination "innocent", he crafted the gambling system, promoted it, lied about function and returns, lied about his own abilities when he sought angels to adopt the failure that it was becoming, and has consistently mislead, covered up and shaded the facts to support his own position to the detriment of all.

I haven't seen where he's lied about functionality and the returns or his abilities but I've been away from the forums for quiet some time but I accept that this might have happened. If so it certainly weakens his position.

Quote from: LoupGaroux
I am not even convinced that he is a minor at all. There seems to be a growing body of proof that he may be buried under yet another layer of false identity, and no person could remain 17 for the length of time that he has claimed to be that age...
 at some point a birthday will jump up and kick him in the teeth, even if he is using some obscure Confucian calendar, he ages. And, consider the fact of where he chose to play his games.

I don't know whether he's a minor or not either. I just feel it would be quite a feat of planning to expect to use it for some form of criminal defense in the future in case he got caught out. I accept that at some point he'll be 18 (probably soon if not very recently) but then if he is due to turn 'adult' you're accepting that he's 17 then?

Quote from: LoupGaroux
If you want to be considered a child for protection as a minor, do not misrepresent yourself as an adult in an adult world, and play at adults games.

If by adult games you mean steal from the community then that presumes he's guilty. If by adult games you mean by creating Bitcoinica then I don't see why you have to be an adult to create it.

Quote from: LoupGaroux
By his own statements he is the close associate of someone he alleges is a serious criminal, is this a child who should be accorded some special consideration because he didn't know what he was doing? No.

Associating yourself with criminals isn't a smart thing to do. Any adult would know this, especially in the business world. It's certainly something you'll learn from experience but that's the thing, he's a minor. He might not know better.

Also, I'd like to add, ZT hasn't ever mentioned that he's hiding behind the defence of being a minor. I'm the only one that's brought that up and the only reason why I do is because if he is a minor AND he's innocent then he doesn't deserve this.

1) Any belief that he's using his age as a cover is completely fictitious (because I'm the only one that's brought it up)
2) It requires you accept that his age is really 17/18

If you don't think he's a minor then claiming he's using his age as a cover doesn't make sense (but I'm not sure you are making that claim, rather, just debating the point).

Quote from: LoupGaroux
And a small edit in light of point #3 above about being know as a "grass" (or squealer in the US)... with the level of criminal he is implicating in this matter, and the not insignificant amounts of money involved- this grass will not be long for this world in that community. A good soldier will shut up and take his stripes in this type of case, do his time and be welcome back into the company of criminals afterwards. A squealer won't make it past the first couple of days, giving up Notorious Relic Dealer Chen, and his ilk.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean here. Are you saying that he should just do as the criminal wants because he could otherwise face real danger?

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August 02, 2012, 05:56:58 PM
 #1013

Personally, I think ZT only has two things to worry about.

1)
2)
3)
Comedy gold! Smiley


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August 02, 2012, 08:49:58 PM
 #1014

Without blaming anyone, I would like to suggest a better way to handle similar situations in the future:

Release about half of the information to the suspect privately, and give him 12 hours to explain himself. This way you can use his explanation to check against the other half of the evidence, to determine whether it's a made up story or plausible truth.

After 12 hours, post the full evidence alongside with the explanation in public. It also protects privacy and encourages the community to act in a neutral manner.

I never understood why you wanted to protect the privacy of a person you claim framed you for a $500,000 theft.  Do whatever you want Zhou, but I am posting right now to tell you this:

With the interest I have received, we should be hiring a PI early next week.  This PI will locate you in Australia and allow us to file an official theft complaint with the Australian police.

It will then be between you and the police to determine if "Chen" does indeed exist.  If he doesn't, YOU will be the one going to prison for several years.  If he does happen to exist, then you can be fully exonerated in the community, and we can turn our attention on him.  Be advised that the police are not going to accept your wish to keep his identity secret.

This one simple step is going to flush all the bullshit stories that have been floating around this forum.

Zhou Tong should probably go to the police at this point to ask for protection from the violent threats leveled against him by this individual.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=97365.msg1073135#msg1073135

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August 02, 2012, 09:01:31 PM
 #1015

As stated, no more statements will be release on this forum.

After releasing so much information at the start, is there a reason why you can no longer be so open?


Quote from: aurumxchange
As per the possible motivation behind certain individuals on this thread, please read this post carefully:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=84042.msg1074192#msg1074192

I can think of two people you might have in mind when you make this comment. If one of them is who I think it is, I can understand why people might feel there's a conflict of interest but all I can see is they've made no plea other than wait till something conclusive comes in. If they were saying that ZT is absolutely not guilty then I could see your point but otherwise are you saying that the person is being reasonable and rational because sometime in the past he's received monies from ZT?

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August 02, 2012, 09:02:39 PM
 #1016

If the thread was that compelling as evidence, maybe it shouldn't have been moved to the trashcan. Having read most of it previously, I would hardly describe it as "violent threats" or threats to "injure/kill". Pointing out that criminals sometimes run afoul of their own devices and get hurt or disappear is nothing more than talking about the headlines on the evening news. If there was a legitimate reason for that user to be censured, I sure the appropriate actions would have been taken by Board leadership, especially given that they have a predilection to support "Zhou Tong" and excuse his actions. Said user is still here, and the thread has been removed, calling attention to it as a call to action is somewhat hollow.

I seriously doubt that "Zhou Tong" close personal confidante and buddy of Notorious Relic Dealer Chen, Criminal Mastermind, wants to have anything to do at all with the police in China. First off its a long trip from Australia back to China just to file a vague police report; second, that very same travel could be considered flight to avoid prosecution; third, he stands a pretty damn good shot at having Notorious Relic Dealer Chen really, really upset with him, and perhaps suffering an accident like falling down a flight of Relic stairs, thirty of forth times; and fourth, why would he give up dependable broadband as enjoyed in Australia for the controlled and limited access in China, when all of his other "business ventures" are outside of China?

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August 02, 2012, 09:04:27 PM
 #1017

If the thread was that compelling as evidence, maybe it shouldn't have been moved to the trashcan. Having read most of it previously, I would hardly describe it as "violent threats"

There is another thread for you to debate the moderator decision to take ML at his word when he admitted he was stalking ZT and incriminating himself, so take it there:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=97365.40

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August 02, 2012, 09:07:22 PM
 #1018

Zhou Tong should probably go to the police at this point to ask for protection from the violent threats leveled against him by this individual.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=97365.msg1073135#msg1073135

Gosh! But has anyone actually made mention of a hitman?

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August 02, 2012, 09:09:50 PM
 #1019

Zhou Tong should probably go to the police at this point to ask for protection from the violent threats leveled against him by this individual.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=97365.msg1073135#msg1073135

Gosh! But has anyone actually made mention of a hitman?

You are obviously not paying attention to Rarity's comments.  Rarity can bring up the subject buy you cannot discuss it here.  Roll Eyes

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August 02, 2012, 09:11:09 PM
 #1020

Zhou Tong should probably go to the police at this point to ask for protection from the violent threats leveled against him by this individual.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=97365.msg1073135#msg1073135

Gosh! But has anyone actually made mention of a hitman?

You are obviously not paying attention to Rarity's comments.  Rarity can bring up the subject buy you cannot discuss it here.  Roll Eyes

I was only responding to ML bringing it up again, pointing out what the moderators have said on the matter. If you disagree with their view feel free to tell them in the thread I have linked.

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