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Author Topic: Statement about the suspect of recent Bitcoinica hack  (Read 124659 times)
Inedible
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August 02, 2012, 11:13:28 AM
 #961

Right - and you've got a huuge stake in this issue. May I ask you why you think he's innocent because from where I'm sitting it sure does seem like he's more guilty than he is innocent?
Too much foolish mistakes have been made in this theft, so either ZT was drunk when doing it, or he is innocent.

The mistakes were amateur and although ZT is a smart guy, I'd say that's weak evidence of his innocence though.


I agree. Why is everyone's efforts aimed at ZT? Is it because he was silly enough to try and help everyone? Shouldn't more be asked of Intersango? Shouldn't they at least release a statement saying what's happening?
Intersango made a wise choice by going silent. Once there is no response for a long enough time, the lynch mob moves on to some other target.

If only ZT had done the same. Instead he was transparent and vocal.

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August 02, 2012, 11:14:45 AM
 #962


Quote from: greBit
Zhou Tong could help to clear this matter up by simply doing a video skype call with a respected member of the community.

I think it's a little more nuanced than that now.

1) If you already don't believe he's who he claims to be, it would be just as easy to dismiss the person on the Skype call as an actor (paid or otherwise).
2) A video call won't actually prove his age, only an approximate one and if the stereotype that Asians look young is to be believed, he might be 30 but look 22.
3) He could be putting his/his family's physical security at risk
4) Some people will only believe it if they have the skype call themselves and even then, see 1) and 2).


Well yes it would provide strong evidence for the fact that Zhou Tong is this 17 year old kid:



This is supposedly the real Zhou Tong, so by performing a video interview, one would hope to ascertain if he is legit or not. A paid actor would have difficulty answering questions about bitcoinica etc

One could also verify the voice of this kid as belonging to Zhou Tong - there was a VoIP discussion recorded a while back for the bitcoin tv show thing.
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August 02, 2012, 11:20:22 AM
 #963

Well yes it would provide strong evidence for the fact that Zhou Tong is this 17 year old kid:


This is supposedly the real Zhou Tong, so by performing a video interview, one would hope to ascertain if he is legit or not. A paid actor would have difficulty answering questions about bitcoinica etc

One could also verify the voice of this kid as belonging to Zhou Tong - there was a VoIP discussion recorded a while back for the bitcoin tv show thing.

Hadn't realised there was a picture of him available.

It would be enough for most people but I doubt it would be sufficient for the hardcore.

If he's already known then a Skype call would help things for a lot of people.

It's unlikely he will if he's finally gotten some legal representation.

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August 02, 2012, 11:32:02 AM
 #964


Too much foolish mistakes have been made in this theft, so either ZT was drunk when doing it, or he is innocent.


To me this line of reasoning is invalid.

We have not yet ascertained who is really behind the `Zhou Tong` online identity, so therefore we cannot make any assumptions about his/her/their intellect/motivation/personality/ability to make mistakes, etc
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August 02, 2012, 11:35:57 AM
 #965


Too much foolish mistakes have been made in this theft, so either ZT was drunk when doing it, or he is innocent.


To me this line of reasoning is invalid.

We have not yet ascertained who is really behind the `Zhou Tong` online identity, so therefore we cannot make any assumptions about his/her/their intellect/motivation/personality/ability to make mistakes, etc

True. And in the same vein, we cannot assume he was drunk anymore than we can assume he is guilty and an evil Chinese hacker. The only "evidence" we have is that of identity theft, which was explained and can be verified with Zhou directly if anyone cared to find out. Anything else has nothing to do with this case and AurumXChange's silence should make that clear.

This thread does not decide who is guilty or innocent. This thread merely discusses possibilities. The fact that there are so many people here with their minds "made up" and "ready to take action" should remind the rest of us what bitcoiners look like to the rest of the world-- like wackos.

Reasoning for this line of thought:

Users have claimed Zhou Tong is guilty of stealing Bitcoinica funds without any proof of it whatsoever.

Users have claimed that Zhou Tong is guilty of money laundering without understanding Chinese culture.

Users have claimed that Zhou Tong is lying because he has not backed up his response with evidence, yet neglect to have the same line of reasoning with the suspiciously quiet AurumXChange's Roberto.

Users have claimed that Zhou Tong is not really Zhou Tong and someone else entirely-- this is quite bizarre considering he has numerous bank accounts with his name on them, businesses registered in his name, and has never once done anything to make anyone think otherwise.

Users have claimed that Zhou Tong works with criminals -- Yahoo's last CEO Scott Thompson lied about his tech degree, that must mean Yahoo are all liars and work with liars.  Roll Eyes Kevin Mitnick is a known hacker who has broken numerous laws, numerous big companies ask for his advice in protecting against fraud. This does not make those companies criminals.

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August 02, 2012, 11:42:04 AM
 #966


The only "evidence" we have is that of identity theft, which was explained and can be verified with Zhou directly if anyone cared to find out.


I may be missing something, but where is the evidence of identity theft? Do you have other sources apart from a post made by the `Zhou Tong` ?
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August 02, 2012, 11:43:27 AM
 #967


The only "evidence" we have is that of identity theft, which was explained and can be verified with Zhou directly if anyone cared to find out.


I may be missing something, but where is the evidence of identity theft? Do you have other sources apart from a post made by the `Zhou Tong` ?

Private conversations with Zhou Tong that make sense and match exactly what he said on the forum (without being snide, why is it that no one is talking to Zhou? Why are they just repeating the same mindless snot in this thread? Ask him yourself.). I'll ask him if it's okay if I post it here, but it might make sense for him to get the money back from the thief before producing evidence that the theft happened in order not to disrupt the process.

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August 02, 2012, 12:10:21 PM
 #968


Private conversations with Zhou Tong that make sense and match exactly what he said on the forum (without being snide, why is it that no one is talking to Zhou? Why are they just repeating the same mindless snot in this thread? Ask him yourself.). I'll ask him if it's okay if I post it here, but it might make sense for him to get the money back from the thief before producing evidence that the theft happened in order not to disrupt the process.

Totally agree that this kind of evidence could back up his story a lot, and yes it would be silly for him to post things that could influence the recuperation of funds.

I imagine though that for a lot of people the more important question is `who is the real person behind the online identity "zhou tong"?`

I also agree that the best way to settle this question is to talk to Zhou directly, and this could be done simply and efficiently via a skype video chat.

Or is this not a reasonable proposal?
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August 02, 2012, 12:13:28 PM
 #969


Quote from: DarkEmi
With that said, I still believe ZT is innocent and is doing his best, but I reserve my judgement and I respect other people rights to voice their opinion.

Right - and you've got a huuge stake in this issue. May I ask you why you think he's innocent because from where I'm sitting it sure does seem like he's more guilty than he is innocent?


As I said, I reserve my judgement : If he is proven guilty then I would probably be very angry toward him and expect a lot more.

Right now, everything is confused, at least he is very active and show willingness to help, so so far I cant really blame him.

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August 02, 2012, 12:18:50 PM
 #970

Private conversations with Zhou Tong that make sense and match exactly what he said on the forum (without being snide, why is it that no one is talking to Zhou? Why are they just repeating the same mindless snot in this thread? Ask him yourself.). I'll ask him if it's okay if I post it here, but it might make sense for him to get the money back from the thief before producing evidence that the theft happened in order not to disrupt the process.

Until he produces a police report against Chen, Chen is a figure of his fantasy. An imaginary friend.

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August 02, 2012, 12:29:01 PM
 #971

Private conversations with Zhou Tong that make sense and match exactly what he said on the forum (without being snide, why is it that no one is talking to Zhou? Why are they just repeating the same mindless snot in this thread? Ask him yourself.). I'll ask him if it's okay if I post it here, but it might make sense for him to get the money back from the thief before producing evidence that the theft happened in order not to disrupt the process.

Until he produces a police report against Chen, Chen is a figure of his fantasy. An imaginary friend.



It would be a bad idea to release those conversations even with ZT's permission if it would negatively impact recuperating the stolen funds.

A police report from China really isn't what you think it would be. If like me, you live in a Western country and have a decent police force you might be mistaken in thinking that this would be a good way to go about things.

In China, you can 'influence' how a police officer sees things with something as simple as a carton of cigarettes. If you don't want to deal with a strong headed police officer then you can see the political head of that region and explain to them why the matter should go away. Also, when you're not present locally, it would be very hard to make a report, especially for something so complex.

It's one thing for the local police in China to deal with a local theft of physical goods but it's quite another for them to deal with a crypto-currency with multiple international jurisdictions.

My personal opinion is that going to the police before funds are recovered for those with a financial interest in this case would be detrimental. It would also hinder ZT from recovering the funds from his business associate.

Also, if anyone were to file a claim, shouldn't it be Bitcoinica? Am I right in saying that this attack happened after the sale?

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August 02, 2012, 12:33:31 PM
 #972

It would be a bad idea to release those conversations even with ZT's permission if it would negatively impact recuperating the stolen funds.

A police report from China really isn't what you think it would be. If like me, you live in a Western country and have a decent police force you might be mistaken in thinking that this would be a good way to go about things.

In China, you can 'influence' how a police officer sees things with something as simple as a carton of cigarettes. If you don't want to deal with a strong headed police officer then you can see the political head of that region and explain to them why the matter should go away. Also, when you're not present locally, it would be very hard to make a report, especially for something so complex.

It's one thing for the local police in China to deal with a local theft of physical goods but it's quite another for them to deal with a crypto-currency with multiple international jurisdictions.

My personal opinion is that going to the police before funds are recovered for those with a financial interest in this case would be detrimental. It would also hinder ZT from recovering the funds from his business associate.

Also, if anyone were to file a claim, shouldn't it be Bitcoinica? Am I right in saying that this attack happened after the sale?

Chen stole Zhou's identity. Used it for credit card fraud and steal money from Bitcoinica. Australian police would suffice, Zhou resided there during the theft.

And whatever you just wrote above directly applies to Zhou, he claimed that he got funds back from Chen by threatening with Chinese police.

As of right now Zhou is black mailing.

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August 02, 2012, 12:37:27 PM
 #973

Zhou Tong is directly linked to the recent hack.  This is not debatable - he says that he was a victim of identity theft, through which Chen stole lots of cash.

So it is fairly normal for people to question his version of events is it not? People have lost a lot of money after all.


Reasoning for this line of thought:

Users have claimed Zhou Tong is guilty of stealing Bitcoinica funds without any proof of it whatsoever.

Users have claimed that Zhou Tong is guilty of money laundering without understanding Chinese culture.


Yes people should not make unfounded accusations.


Users have claimed that Zhou Tong is lying because he has not backed up his response with evidence, yet neglect to have the same line of reasoning with the suspiciously quiet AurumXChange's Roberto.

We cannot take one person's version of events, (either for or against ZT), at face value without sufficient evidence. It is just logical.

I don't really see the connection with Roberto, sounds like a separate issue for another thread.

Users have claimed that Zhou Tong is not really Zhou Tong and someone else entirely-- this is quite bizarre considering he has numerous bank accounts with his name on them, businesses registered in his name, and has never once done anything to make anyone think otherwise.

Again it seems like a reasonable thing to want to know the real identity behind a business, responsible for storing peoples money. Zhou Tong is not an exception and neither should any of the people involved with BTC businesses.


Being new here I have probably missed something - can you point me to the thread about his bank accounts and such.

[Edit]
Found the ZT photos link https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=86594.msg953155#msg953155

Seems convincing though a photo-ID would have been nice

Users have claimed that Zhou Tong works with criminals -- Yahoo's last CEO Scott Thompson lied about his tech degree, that must mean Yahoo are all liars and work with liars.  Roll Eyes Kevin Mitnick is a known hacker who has broken numerous laws, numerous big companies ask for his advice in protecting against fraud. This does not make those companies criminals.

Wasn't that part of ZT's version of events, that he worked for a criminal relic collector? So it is apparently true. But yes this does not necessarily incriminate ZT.
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August 02, 2012, 12:41:22 PM
 #974

...
This thread does not decide who is guilty or innocent. This thread merely discusses possibilities. The fact that there are so many people here with their minds "made up" and "ready to take action" should remind the rest of us what bitcoiners look like to the rest of the world-- like wackos.
...

...
My personal opinion is that going to the police before funds are recovered for those with a financial interest in this case would be detrimental. It would also hinder ZT from recovering the funds from his business associate.
...

Why do I get the feeling that a lot of FUD is being spread here? Well, I don't know.  Roll Eyes

Please ZT, can I be on your payroll too?

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August 02, 2012, 12:47:37 PM
 #975

What's all this I hear about a "criminal relic collector"?


 Huh




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August 02, 2012, 12:54:42 PM
 #976


This thread does not decide who is guilty or innocent. This thread merely discusses possibilities. The fact that there are so many people here with their minds "made up" and "ready to take action" should remind the rest of us what bitcoiners look like to the rest of the world-- like wackos.


I dont know what "real world" you live in, but in mine people gets shit over and beaten for less than 1k and just suspicions

And for bigger sum they can be locked up till everything is cleared so, then sentenced to prison.

So imagine for 400k ? I bet a lot of people have died for less than that.
I am not threathening Zhou in any way and I am not supporting any violent action, I just want to clear the fact that this is not a small matter

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August 02, 2012, 01:00:17 PM
 #977


This thread does not decide who is guilty or innocent. This thread merely discusses possibilities. The fact that there are so many people here with their minds "made up" and "ready to take action" should remind the rest of us what bitcoiners look like to the rest of the world-- like wackos.


I dont know what "real world" you live in,
Were you quoting "real world" as if I had said "real world", which I didn't? Or were you just being sarcastic?

in mine people gets shit over and beaten for less than 1k and just suspicions
I think you should move.

And for bigger sum they can be locked up till everything is cleared so, then sentenced to prison.
Yep, you should probably move.

So imagine for 400k ?
Whoa, what? What 400k? Did anyone steal 400K? Is Zhou connected to someone stealing 400k? Where did you get that figure from?

The last time I checked this thread, Aurumxchange was holding $40k of Zhou's money or something to that nature, and Chen was caught stealing something as well, which Zhou is trying to get back from him. Refresh my memory.

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August 02, 2012, 01:03:54 PM
 #978

So imagine for 400k ?
Whoa, what? What 400k? Did anyone steal 400K? Is Zhou connected to someone stealing 400k? Where did you get that figure from?

The last time I checked this thread, Aurumxchange was holding $40k of Zhou's money or something to that nature, and Chen was caught stealing something as well, which Zhou is trying to get back from him. Refresh my memory.


The users funds they are still holding and haven't returned. Until that money is returned they have stolen over 400k USD.
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August 02, 2012, 01:06:43 PM
 #979

Quote from: Matthew
So imagine for 400k ?
Whoa, what? What 400k? Did anyone steal 400K? Is Zhou connected to someone stealing 400k? Where did you get that figure from?

The last time I checked this thread, Aurumxchange was holding $40k of Zhou's money or something to that nature, and Chen was caught stealing something as well, which Zhou is trying to get back from him. Refresh my memory.


The users funds they are still holding and haven't returned. Until that money is returned they have stolen over 400k USD.

So the poster DarkEmi was confusing this event related to a identity theft for a small amount with Bitcoinica's funds (which are held by Intersango/Tihan)?

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August 02, 2012, 01:08:51 PM
 #980

Zhou Tong is directly linked to the recent hack.  This is not debatable - he says that he was a victim of identity theft, through which Chen stole lots of cash.

Sure.

So it is fairly normal for people to question his version of events is it not? People have lost a lot of money after all.

Absolutely - it's just that some people aren't just questioning. If people had only questioned and voiced their doubts, we'd have a whole lot more information from ZT. Right now he's probably keeping information to himself in case police involvement prevents him from getting his/his friend's $40K back.

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