Swedish ASIC miner company kncminer.com

[gateway]

Well you're pretty close with Hashfast now Gateway and you gotta agree Ytterbium nails it here;

Making everyone sign an NDA is pretty stupid.  I requested to go to the open house and was told: 'no' we're full.  Not a huge fan of these guys right now.  We know that they had an open house.  However, we have no clue what was discussed.  So, what was the point of it?

It's kind of annoying.

On the other hand, their main public competition right now is Cointerra, it's probably something of a game of chicken with them, they don't want to put out specs before Cointerra does if it means Cointerra can try to one up them.

Anyway, as far as I'm concerned the hashrate is going to be going up way to quickly to bother buying any more hashpower at this point in time.  We'll have to see where things are in December, and what the prices are.

I'm a little worried people aren't really doing their research or thinking clearly are going to order a ton of product they'll never ROI off of, and at the same time destroy profitability for everyone else as well.

I'd say as much as companies want to be open, now there is competition which hopefully leads to better value for equipment for us over the long term. All that matters for us though are the returns to be made, how soon we can get started, the protection of the network and the integrity of those involved...

You are correct about HashFast but I also spent my hard earned money with KNC and was one of their first 500 so I have interest in what their status is.

Also with NDAs I do not take them lightly working in the industry I'm in, in fact we have many on place at our company about the next gen gme console and you won't hear me breaking any NDA I sign.

Trust me if one of the next gen console people found who actually leaked info their are consequences

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[Bitcoinorama]

Well you're pretty close with Hashfast now Gateway and you gotta agree Ytterbium nails it here;

Making everyone sign an NDA is pretty stupid.  I requested to go to the open house and was told: 'no' we're full.  Not a huge fan of these guys right now.  We know that they had an open house.  However, we have no clue what was discussed.  So, what was the point of it?

It's kind of annoying.

On the other hand, their main public competition right now is Cointerra, it's probably something of a game of chicken with them, they don't want to put out specs before Cointerra does if it means Cointerra can try to one up them.

Anyway, as far as I'm concerned the hashrate is going to be going up way to quickly to bother buying any more hashpower at this point in time.  We'll have to see where things are in December, and what the prices are.

I'm a little worried people aren't really doing their research or thinking clearly are going to order a ton of product they'll never ROI off of, and at the same time destroy profitability for everyone else as well.

I'd say as much as companies want to be open, now there is competition which hopefully leads to better value for equipment for us over the long term. All that matters for us though are the returns to be made, how soon we can get started, the protection of the network and the integrity of those involved...

You are correct about HashFast but I also spent my hard earned money with KNC and was one of their first 500 so I have interest in what their status is.

Also with NDAs I do not take them lightly working in the industry I'm in, in fact we have many on place at our company about the next ten console and you won't hear me breaking any NDA I sign.

Trust me if one of the next gen console people found who actually leaked info their are consequences

No of course, but it would have to be something only few are privy to and even then it could be hard to prove without strong evidence. I'm not trying to encourage anyone to do so, I just as a company would never assume what was kept with in an NDA would never be gossiped about, and as a signatory would like to think integrity counts for something.

[gateway]

No of course, but it would have to be something only few are privy to and even then it could be hard to prove without strong evidence. I'm not trying to encourage anyone to do so, I just as a company would never assume what was kept with in an NDA would never be gossiped about, and as a signatory would like to think integrity counts for something.

spot on with the integrity..

[tempestb]

For those interested in just how low the Cloudhashing owner will go....  LINK HERE

I read that whole thing and still don't understand it.

[XFox]

Have a look at their official terms and conditions at their website (one had to accept before one can finalize the order).

First they strictly treat you as a business customer:

"1.2   The Products are sold for business use only and Purchaser hereby accepts that it has purchased the Products in order to conduct a business."

I specifically asked KnCMiner about this point of their terms and conditions:

Q: Hi,
I read the following clause in your terms and conditions page:

"1.2   The Products are sold for business use only and Purchaser hereby
accepts that it has purchased the Products in order to conduct a business."

What does this implies?
I don't have an EU VAT number, can I still buy your products as a private individual?

A: Hi,

Yes you can still buy our products. What it means is that we don't sell consumer goods and therefore you as a customer are expected to have made an informed decision. Ordinary consumer rights legislation does not apply to the purchase. Instead the terms and conditions regulate warranty etc.

Thanks,
Carl

So, it appears they're effectively trying to safeguard themselves against "ordinary consumer rights legislation" but I don't think that their T&C is valid if in contrast with the EU law. I'm not a lawyer but I think there is the possibility that pretending to apply business rules to consumers by means of their T&C (the contract) could be deemed as an "unfair contract term".
Obviously, since every "EU law" is actually an "EU directive", what makes a (legal) point is Sweden's implementation of the consumer rights EU directives.

[WastedLTC]

For those interested in just how low the Cloudhashing owner will go....  LINK HERE

I read that whole thing and still don't understand it.

It was a slow day for me so I read it too...   I never thought BFL holds the queue as gospel and expected them to hash with some and sell off some to the highest bidders and I think that is all it was showing...  Wave $100k in their face and you may get invited out to dinner.  Sorry, I exaggerated..  lunch, not dinner.

[DyslexicZombei]

Hmm, so that's what became of that $100K offer on ebay that was declined last month for a MR. The timeline & accompanying offer amount makes a perverse sort of sense.

[Bitcoinorama]

Hmm, so that's what became of that $100K offer on ebay that was declined last month for a MR. The timeline & accompanying offer amount makes a perverse sort of sense.

Link?

[nightengale]

The jitter-meter seems to be edging up -- time to give the kids an update please...

[Bitcoinorama]

The jitter-meter seems to be edging up -- time to give the kids an update please...

It hasn't even been a week yet.

[WastedLTC]

The jitter-meter seems to be edging up -- time to give the kids an update please...

I believe there is a site that accepts btc where you can buy some meds for your jitters...

[WastedLTC]

Hmm, so that's what became of that $100K offer on ebay that was declined last month for a MR. The timeline & accompanying offer amount makes a perverse sort of sense.

Link?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ButterflyLabs-Bitcoin-Miner-BitForce-500-GH-s-Mini-Rig-NOT-PRE-ORDER-/290944772707?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item43bda8ea63

[Templer]

The jitter-meter seems to be edging up -- time to give the kids an update please...

It hasn't even been a week yet.

Last official update on the website: Hosting News 2013 July 23  

I think a little update would be good!  

[DyslexicZombei]

Yup, that's the one. This, along with the chat logs and offer amount...

...curious timing, no?

[DyslexicZombei]

I'm sure it's just one of those cosmic coincidences you hear of.  

All I know is I just sold my BFL pre-orders cuz I'm sick of their so-called "300-400 units" shipping a day with no real progress.

Will be spending the proceeds on KnC and/or BitFury pre-order. You know: companies that'll be shipping product in volume soon (we hope).

[ridnovir]

When can we realistically expect to see a prototype running?

It seems like its time for a significant update from KnC to include a more definitive timeline with specific milestones -- the way difficulty is going, Sept. 1 is a lot different from Sept. 30.

I'm hoping KnC continues to set the bar high with regard to customer communication.

My thoughts exactly. Would be nice to see a working unit and get exact shipping dates especially if you considering (like me) buying now an getting it in October.

[jgarzik]

Can we please move BFL chatter to a BFL-related thread?

[KS]

Have a look at their official terms and conditions at their website (one had to accept before one can finalize the order).

First they strictly treat you as a business customer:

"1.2   The Products are sold for business use only and Purchaser hereby accepts that it has purchased the Products in order to conduct a business."

I specifically asked KnCMiner about this point of their terms and conditions:

Q: Hi,
I read the following clause in your terms and conditions page:

"1.2   The Products are sold for business use only and Purchaser hereby
accepts that it has purchased the Products in order to conduct a business."

What does this implies?
I don't have an EU VAT number, can I still buy your products as a private individual?

A: Hi,

Yes you can still buy our products. What it means is that we don't sell consumer goods and therefore you as a customer are expected to have made an informed decision. Ordinary consumer rights legislation does not apply to the purchase. Instead the terms and conditions regulate warranty etc.

Thanks,
Carl

So, it appears they're effectively trying to safeguard themselves against "ordinary consumer rights legislation" but I don't think that their T&C is valid if in contrast with the EU law. I'm not a lawyer but I think there is the possibility that pretending to apply business rules to consumers by means of their T&C (the contract) could be deemed as an "unfair contract term".
Obviously, since every "EU law" is actually an "EU directive", what makes a (legal) point is Sweden's implementation of the consumer rights EU directives.

By buying their products you are agreeing to the T&C and thus explicitly agreeing that you are acting as a business and thus "forfeiting" consumer rights.

This is clear in Belgian law (double checked, lawyers & all) but I'm waiting for an answer re EU law (might not be fast).

The Section 75 bit *WOULD* only apply in the UK (and I'm really not sure it would stick - CC phone operators are not exactly in charge of these things and I wouldn't be surprised if their promises/word were discarded by the first judge).

if you say you are a business, you buy business only equipment, to use for a business purpose, then you want to convince your CC company/judge you're a consumer? If it quacks like a duck...

Also, if there was to be a massive refund, it would mean bankrupcy for KNCMINER and thus no money for anyone. Alea jacta est, the only thing you can do now is wait.

[rizzman]

EU rules say: If you did not recieve your product within 30 days you are lawfully entitled to get a refund!

30 days from what?

From order date.

Which I believe is the case with KNC - they have said before that they will refund anyone unless they have started shipping your order

Have a look at their official terms and conditions at their website (one had to accept before one can finalize the order).

First they strictly treat you as a business customer:

"1.2   The Products are sold for business use only and Purchaser hereby accepts that it has purchased the Products in order to conduct a business."

As far as I know, business customers are not that well and comfortable protected by law as private persons are.

Second, there is no word about a refunding policy, as mentioned here (refunding possible until they ship). At least I didn't find it.
I know, that someone shared a KnC email he got, where they say it in that way. But is this binding?

In their terms and conditions is stated:

"8.2  Where delivery is delayed due to any of the circumstances constituting force majeure in accordance with 11 below or due to any act or omission by the Purchaser, the delivery period shall be extended by such a period as is reasonable in light of the circumstances.  The delivery period shall also be extended where the cause of the delay arises after the expiry of the originally agreed delivery period."

and in their definition "force majeure" is almost anything they can't control:

"11.1 KnCMiner is exempted from fulfilling its obligations under this Agreement and is entitled to cancel the Purchaser’s confirmed orders without any liability, in the event of force majeure such as strikes, floods and fires, wars, riots, interruptions in transport, shortage of material or energy sources affecting KnCMiner or its sub-suppliers, accidents or other occurrences which affects sub-suppliers’ production, bankruptcy or compulsory liquidation of a sub-supplier, accidents of any kind, governmental decisions which affects manufacturing or use of the Products and, in general, such events that were unforeseen at the time of the order which prevents or hinder manufacturing, transportation or delivery of the Products to the Purchaser."

No offence, but if "we refund everybody until we start shipping" is their official refunding policy, they should add this also to their official terms and conditions.

EU Law applies to all companies who are located in the EU.
EU Law stands above KnCminers own company T&C ("rules")!

yep you're right, nonetheless if they fail in a bad way and everyone ask for a refund, bankruptcy is almost unavoidable

Same as each current manufacturer, except here if you perform due diligence and clear the purchase with your bank first, you stand a chance to be reimbursed. Anyway we know for sure in a month. So for those on the fence it's not long now.

What about customers who purchased from the US??

Did you pay by credit card? Amex at a guess would prob be best. Did you ring your card issuing bank prior? What's the consumer protection like in the US?

If you don't know the answer to these Q's, what kind of research have you been doing before investing into any alr currency mining equipment pre-order??

Amex Policy within the States is 60 days - which is crap considering how much people rave about Amex customer service. The only card that I have found which has an unlimited dispute window is Discovercard but require documentation. However, it still remains to be seen whether their unlimited dispute promise has any teeth or not.

[bebfoo]

Amex Policy within the States is 60 days - which is crap considering how much people rave about Amex customer service. The only card that I have found which has an unlimited dispute window is Discovercard but require documentation. However, it still remains to be seen whether their unlimited dispute promise has any teeth or not.

I just spoke with Discover today, and they said their chargeback/dispute window is 90 days.