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Question: Will you support Gavin's new block size limit hard fork of 8MB by January 1, 2016 then doubling every 2 years?
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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 1981356 times)
brg444
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November 30, 2014, 08:45:29 PM
 #18161

Because of this accessibility gold is unlikely to ever be forgotten by the masses

This accessibility is getting increasingly rare though. You don't see people finding "pebbles" of gold laying around anymore.

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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brg444
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November 30, 2014, 08:51:02 PM
 #18162

it's way easier to get Bitcoin than an ounce of gold.  just log into Circle, input CC info and buy instantly.

Agree, one thing I always mention to my friends is that Bitcoin is arguably the most accessible investment asset that exist.


"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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November 30, 2014, 08:51:22 PM
 #18163

On Counterparty...
I like it, but also recognize that it brings SOME of the problems that side chains bring.  One of these is the increased regulatory attack profile.  The more things Bitcoin does, the more government agencies start to think "oh, we are the authority on everything to do with that".

The introduction of securities, distributed organizations, distributed exchanges, and all of the wonders of the Bitcoin 2.0 suite of things brings in new armies of regulators that will work to enforce rules on anyone who lives in or has assets in their jurisdictions.

It also used a sort of SVP one directional diminishing peg with the Proof of Burn initial distribution.  This was the most ethical distribution method of any of the 2.0 efforts of the time.  Earliest "burners" were rewarded slightly more than later burners, and there was an end block after which burned BTC would yield no XCP.

The Side Chain technologies provide much of the same, but also allow for "unburning" the burned BTC, but the Bitcoin protocol doesn't support this currently.  
Personally my position on SC is pretty nuanced, I'd rather see the experimental changes done on another block chain rather than Bitcoin.  The economic issues are complicated, and some of the risks are insidious (they build over time).  For those, we won't know that we hit a tipping point until afterwards, and I don't see an impending crisis of need for Side Chains manifesting.  We already have Counterparty, and its implementation of turing completeness.  We have some parts of our test bed already, but there are others we don't have.

The benefits of SC are tremendous.  They also pale in comparison to the Bitcoin endgame and provide a distraction from the steady march towards that.  I like the innovation, I would like to see it on the Bitcoin block chain... eventually.  
For now, I'd rather see it as a Dogecoin side chain implementation, or Litecoin side chain implementation or Monero side chain implementation.  I would like to see how the economics play out, or at least have some faster chain running into the problems that Bitcoin may have with it AHEAD of when it would happen with Bitcoin (each of those examples have faster block times, and faster emission schedules).

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November 30, 2014, 08:54:56 PM
 #18164

Cypherdoc: you could be right. If so this thread could be referenced in the monetary history books Smiley

Edit: One can imagine a future student scratching his head and frowning, "teacher what are all those pages about side chains?". Smiley
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November 30, 2014, 09:01:18 PM
 #18165

Also finding gold in developed world, watch this tv series: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bering_Sea_Gold    It is possible to mine gold and just pick it up off the ground right in the USA.  Not easy exactly but its there..

There is an important human & capital investment required to obtain this gold.

This same investment could be put toward mining Bitcoins. "Not easy exactly but its there..."

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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November 30, 2014, 09:11:53 PM
 #18166

To put things in perspective, fiat has been ~x3 better store of value than Bitcoin over the last year.
You may now return to your delirium.

Nonsense, there are infinite perspectives.

Over the past 24 hours bitcoin has proven a better investment than fiat.

We can both pick any part of the fractal to agree with our own stance.

Fiat is a faith based money, anyone with half a brain knows fiat is not tenable in the long term. It's issuance is controlled by a few families who are FAR richer than us, their wealth wasn't accrued through labor.

You should study some history rather than browsing my little pony sites.

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November 30, 2014, 09:17:57 PM
 #18167

Also finding gold in developed world, watch this tv series: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bering_Sea_Gold    It is possible to mine gold and just pick it up off the ground right in the USA.  Not easy exactly but its there..

There is an important human & capital investment required to obtain this gold.

This same investment could be put toward mining Bitcoins. "Not easy exactly but its there..."

The difference is that with bitcoin those mining costs also secure the network allowing it to function as a secure transaction network.

With gold mining you are left with just the gold.
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November 30, 2014, 09:19:33 PM
 #18168

Because of this accessibility gold is unlikely to ever be forgotten by the masses

This accessibility is getting increasingly rare though. You don't see people finding "pebbles" of gold laying around anymore.

Im not saying this in absolute terms.   I'm never going to 'find' some gold.   Im just saying it does happen that some easy gold is still out there.   Maybe that keys into why gold has been used in general populations for so long

In alaska its possible to pick up gold, I really dont think its worth moving there but in some places they have some gold under rocks.   Unlikely as that seems, Im going to call that out as a dynamic that there is this 'peasant' factor to gold that even the non elite could acquire it.     In zimbabwe its sometimes possible to dig for it, spend the entire day wrecking your muscles and you might get 30 dollars if lucky.  Not worth it but I think its worth noting
Dollars for contrast, the newest dollars are handed to the richest and largest companies possible such as primary dealers to newly created debt.  While some say gold is useless, this dollar systems seems a less inclusive system, possibly self destructive and debased


what's interesting about your theory is that it's inflationary in thinking.  in essence, what you're saying is that the money supply needs to grow to match the growth in population.  and that the new money added should be "free" as in being able to be picked up off the ground.

I think gold money supply grows slower then world economy and when usa was on gold standard it caused deflation.   It did not constrict growth of the economy but prices fell from this effect

The free part to gold is very minor, I realise the most gold mined is done by giant corporations and feeds into the largest forms of money.   Central banks then take it, store and its never used again (directly).  Lots of irony.   
I wouldnt argue that wealth must be given free or found randomly but fair distribution is a good plus to a working system.   Some possibility of getting some to masses is a big plus

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November 30, 2014, 09:26:44 PM
 #18169

we're fixing for a big move in the next 24 hours. 

i say UP.

What's the indicator you're seeing that's tipping you off?
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November 30, 2014, 09:27:41 PM
 #18170

Yea I always wonder what is the point to bitcoin difficulty.   Surely its not a self assembled mountain ready for the fresh ascent of miners every day in order to claim a prize.  It must make the protocol more secure right, some kind of offshoot benefit would be good to hear.   Not just we needed to stop it being easy to solve.   I mean if it werent for high diff we could process transactions in 1 minute or less instead maybe though I realise this makes cohesion of the chain harder

AFAIK difficulty is essential to regulate the emission schedule of newly minted coins.

This is precisely true.  (with some liberty taken on the definition of minted)

It also protects the ledger, if ever say the internet were to fail for a short duration or mining nodes where to become disconnected difficulty would prevent the chain growing too quickly and alow time for a real world fix. The economic majority would still have the longest chain,  but for eg. if 25% of mining power represented the majority the next difficulty could be delayed for up to 8 weeks, allowing other nodes to reconnect before the retargeting

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brg444
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November 30, 2014, 09:30:47 PM
 #18171

Because of this accessibility gold is unlikely to ever be forgotten by the masses

This accessibility is getting increasingly rare though. You don't see people finding "pebbles" of gold laying around anymore.

Im not saying this in absolute terms.   I'm never going to 'find' some gold.   Im just saying it does happen that some easy gold is still out there.   Maybe that keys into why gold has been used in general populations for so long

In alaska its possible to pick up gold, I really dont think its worth moving there but in some places they have some gold under rocks.   Unlikely as that seems, Im going to call that out as a dynamic that there is this 'peasant' factor to gold that even the non elite could acquire it.     In zimbabwe its sometimes possible to dig for it, spend the entire day wrecking your muscles and you might get 30 dollars if lucky.  Not worth it but I think its worth noting
Dollars for contrast, the newest dollars are handed to the richest and largest companies possible such as primary dealers to newly created debt.  While some say gold is useless, this dollar systems seems a less inclusive system, possibly self destructive and debased


what's interesting about your theory is that it's inflationary in thinking.  in essence, what you're saying is that the money supply needs to grow to match the growth in population.  and that the new money added should be "free" as in being able to be picked up off the ground.

I think gold money supply grows slower then world economy and when usa was on gold standard it caused deflation.   It did not constrict growth of the economy but prices fell from this effect

The free part to gold is very minor, I realise the most gold mined is done by giant corporations and feeds into the largest forms of money.   Central banks then take it, store and its never used again (directly).  Lots of irony.   
I wouldnt argue that wealth must be given free or found randomly but fair distribution is a good plus to a working system.   Some possibility of getting some to masses is a big plus

this "peasant" factor is effectively luck.

luck is not an ideal distribution model as far as I'm concerned.

of course no one is arguing that fiat is a better model but it seems to me the accessibility of Bitcoin, considering its digital form, defeats the "luck" factor that may favors some.  

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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November 30, 2014, 09:35:07 PM
 #18172

I realise the most gold mined is done by giant corporations and feeds into the largest forms of money.   Central banks then take it, store and its never used again (directly).  Lots of irony.   
I wouldnt argue that wealth must be given free or found randomly but fair distribution is a good plus to a working system.   Some possibility of getting some to masses is a big plus

again, perspectives are different.

CB's hold huge stores of gold in vaults.  masses can't get at any of that.

there's still 8M BTC's to be made.  get some while you can.
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November 30, 2014, 09:52:08 PM
 #18173

Nonsense, there are infinite perspectives.

Over the past 24 hours bitcoin has proven a better investment than fiat.

We can both pick any part of the fractal to agree with our own stance.

Fiat is a faith based money, anyone with half a brain knows fiat is not tenable in the long term. It's issuance is controlled by a few families who are FAR richer than us, their wealth wasn't accrued through labor.

You should study some history rather than browsing my little pony sites.
Over the past year, holding Bitcoin has provided a 0% risk of being confiscated via negative interest rates.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-11-29/financial-terrorists-road-krugman-and-rogoff-peddling-toxic-advice

The increase in purchasing power of fiat relative to Bitcoin over the last year has correspond with an increased amount of risk.

Whether or not that makes Bitcoin or fiat a "better" investment depends on one's preferences.

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November 30, 2014, 09:52:29 PM
 #18174

I realise the most gold mined is done by giant corporations and feeds into the largest forms of money.   Central banks then take it, store and its never used again (directly).  Lots of irony.   
I wouldnt argue that wealth must be given free or found randomly but fair distribution is a good plus to a working system.   Some possibility of getting some to masses is a big plus

again, perspectives are different.

CB's hold huge stores of gold in vaults.  masses can't get at any of that.

there's still 8M BTC's to be made.  get some while you can.
They were very easy to find just 3 years ago, you just had to look and you could find about 1 BTC a day you just had to have basic computer skills and a couple of old computers the driving factor was the inclination to look. Now it's a lot harder but people are still almost giving them away.

 Smiley Get some while you can.

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November 30, 2014, 10:17:53 PM
 #18175

Nonsense, there are infinite perspectives.

Over the past 24 hours bitcoin has proven a better investment than fiat.

We can both pick any part of the fractal to agree with our own stance.

Fiat is a faith based money, anyone with half a brain knows fiat is not tenable in the long term. It's issuance is controlled by a few families who are FAR richer than us, their wealth wasn't accrued through labor.

You should study some history rather than browsing my little pony sites.
Over the past year, holding Bitcoin has provided a 0% risk of being confiscated via negative interest rates.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-11-29/financial-terrorists-road-krugman-and-rogoff-peddling-toxic-advice

The increase in purchasing power of fiat relative to Bitcoin over the last year has correspond with an increased amount of risk.

Whether or not that makes Bitcoin or fiat a "better" investment depends on one's preferences.

@Cortex7:
Over the past year, Bitcoin has proven itself to be a horrendous store of value, losing ~65% of its buying power. 
Your bit about "a few families [controlling fiat]" makes it clear that, with your understanding of economics, all would benefit if you spent your idle time "browsing my little pony sites" instead of posting your ignorant, paranoid drivel in adult fora.

@justusranvier:  There was no "increase in purchasing power of fiat" over the past year.  My dollar doesn't buy any more than it did one year ago.
There was a decrease in Bitcoin's buying power, tho.  ~65%.  Nice going.
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November 30, 2014, 10:19:45 PM
 #18176

@NotLambchop:

 Grin

Forgive my petulance and oft-times, I fear, ill-founded criticisms, and forgive me that I have, by this time, made your eyes and head ache with my long letter. But I cannot forgo hastily the pleasure and pride of thus conversing with you.
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November 30, 2014, 10:20:22 PM
 #18177

Nonsense, there are infinite perspectives.

Over the past 24 hours bitcoin has proven a better investment than fiat.

We can both pick any part of the fractal to agree with our own stance.

Fiat is a faith based money, anyone with half a brain knows fiat is not tenable in the long term. It's issuance is controlled by a few families who are FAR richer than us, their wealth wasn't accrued through labor.

You should study some history rather than browsing my little pony sites.
Over the past year, holding Bitcoin has provided a 0% risk of being confiscated via negative interest rates.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-11-29/financial-terrorists-road-krugman-and-rogoff-peddling-toxic-advice

The increase in purchasing power of fiat relative to Bitcoin over the last year has correspond with an increased amount of risk.

Whether or not that makes Bitcoin or fiat a "better" investment depends on one's preferences.

@Cortex7:
Over the past year, Bitcoin has proven itself to be a horrendous store of value, losing ~65% of its buying power. 
Your bit about "a few families [controlling fiat]" makes it clear that, with your understanding of economics, all would benefit if you spent your idle time "browsing my little pony sites" instead of posting your ignorant, paranoid drivel in adult fora.

@justusranvier:  There was no "increase in purchasing power of fiat" over the past year.  My dollar doesn't buy any more than it did one year ago.
There was a decrease in Bitcoin's buying power, tho.  ~65%.  Nice going.

subjective timeframe is subjective

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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November 30, 2014, 10:28:53 PM
 #18178

^There is no such thing as a "subjective timeframe."  In logic nerd terms, what you maked thar is an ill-formed statement.

If you wish to suggest the timeframe is random, you're wrong.  Nothing random about choosing a year when discussing yearly inflation.
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November 30, 2014, 10:36:50 PM
 #18179

^There is no such thing as a "subjective timeframe."  In logic nerd terms, what you maked thar is an ill-formed statement.

If you wish to suggest the timeframe is random, you're wrong.  Nothing random about choosing a year when discussing yearly inflation.

Well how about I suggest discussing historical inflation.

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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November 30, 2014, 10:48:19 PM
 #18180

You can suggest it, though that's not what is being currently discussed.  Further, Bitcoin's lifespan is so laughably short, "historical" was probably not the word you were looking for Undecided
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