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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 1807063 times)
Odalv
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November 24, 2014, 06:57:10 PM
 #18041


The cynic in me would consider whether all the trolling you are doing here is for the benefit of the Blockstream investment pool to get some low-cost Due Diligence work out of us.  The sort of analysis you are getting from some of the folks here is pure gold. Wink

And my advice to Blockstream investors is to shut the company down now while you still have a chance and buy $21M worth of bitcoin right now while we're at a long term bottom.

The reason? There's no way in hell any bitcoin company will ever be able to outperform the BTC currency.  

Maybe farmer do better if he stops farming ... sells everything and only buys bitcoin.

Same must be best for merchant. He has to sell all goods and only buys bitcoin.



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November 24, 2014, 07:08:42 PM
 #18042


The cynic in me would consider whether all the trolling you are doing here is for the benefit of the Blockstream investment pool to get some low-cost Due Diligence work out of us.  The sort of analysis you are getting from some of the folks here is pure gold. Wink

And my advice to Blockstream investors is to shut the company down now while you still have a chance and buy $21M worth of bitcoin right now while we're at a long term bottom.

The reason? There's no way in hell any bitcoin company will ever be able to outperform the BTC currency.  

Maybe farmer do better if he stops farming ... sells everything and only buys bitcoin.

Same must be best for merchant. He has to sell all goods and only buys bitcoin.





maybe so.

what investment in the world has done better than Bitcoin since its birth in 2009?   answer:  nothing.

plus, given all the fiat that has been and is being wasted in Bitcoin startups, altcoins, appcoins, that is how you tell we are not in a bubble.
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November 24, 2014, 07:25:56 PM
 #18043

more evidence of exactly where Bitcoin wants to position itself.  forget speculative assets (anything not BTC):

"With [ECB President Mario] Draghi and [BOJ Gov. Haruhiko] Kuroda torpedoing China’s exports with bales of currency, Beijing may feel compelled to fire back," Arnold writes.

"All this money-printing would mean even more credit to Asia’s smaller economies and its weakest borrowers. But to those hopeful this brewing currency war would be good for Asia’s economies or real stock-market returns, a word of advice: curb your enthusiasm."


Barron's Arnold: China Currency War Would Be Bad for Asia

http://www.newsmax.com/Finance/Barrons-Asia-currency-war-dollar/2014/11/22/id/609026/
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November 24, 2014, 07:26:58 PM
 #18044


The cynic in me would consider whether all the trolling you are doing here is for the benefit of the Blockstream investment pool to get some low-cost Due Diligence work out of us.  The sort of analysis you are getting from some of the folks here is pure gold. Wink

And my advice to Blockstream investors is to shut the company down now while you still have a chance and buy $21M worth of bitcoin right now while we're at a long term bottom.

The reason? There's no way in hell any bitcoin company will ever be able to outperform the BTC currency.  

Maybe farmer do better if he stops farming ... sells everything and only buys bitcoin.

Same must be best for merchant. He has to sell all goods and only buys bitcoin.


no, you've overlooked why we want Bitcoin it's not because we want to get rich. That's a bonus you get for doing the right thing.
Farmers and merchants do a great job, they need better money, they don't need added layers of trust,  they just need better money to be better at planning what they do. And you won't value or trust there goods and services any more, if you need to use a sidechain to interact with or secure your interaction with them.

Wow, you got me thinking I see SC as the perfect way to run a Monopsony, or cooperative. This market monopoly approach would be ideal way to manage many suplyers in a free and open social network based market.


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Odalv
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November 24, 2014, 07:28:30 PM
 #18045


The cynic in me would consider whether all the trolling you are doing here is for the benefit of the Blockstream investment pool to get some low-cost Due Diligence work out of us.  The sort of analysis you are getting from some of the folks here is pure gold. Wink

And my advice to Blockstream investors is to shut the company down now while you still have a chance and buy $21M worth of bitcoin right now while we're at a long term bottom.

The reason? There's no way in hell any bitcoin company will ever be able to outperform the BTC currency.  

Maybe farmer do better if he stops farming ... sells everything and only buys bitcoin.

Same must be best for merchant. He has to sell all goods and only buys bitcoin.





maybe so.

what investment in the world has done better than Bitcoin since its birth in 2009?   answer:  nothing.

plus, given all the fiat that has been and is being wasted in Bitcoin startups, altcoins, appcoins, that is how you tell we are not in a bubble.

If we all stop working and we will be only waiting then there will be nothing you will be able to buy with bitcoin.
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November 24, 2014, 07:35:29 PM
 #18046

listen carefully to this Keynote by James Grant at the 32nd Annual Monetary Conference at the Cato.  i subbed to his Grants: Interest Rate Observer for years.  he is one smart guy.  here, he clearly articulates what the major problem in finance is today:  Sound Money.  this is what Bitcoin was meant to solve:

http://www.cato.org/multimedia/events/32nd-annual-monetary-conference-opening-keynote
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November 24, 2014, 07:38:16 PM
 #18047


The cynic in me would consider whether all the trolling you are doing here is for the benefit of the Blockstream investment pool to get some low-cost Due Diligence work out of us.  The sort of analysis you are getting from some of the folks here is pure gold. Wink

And my advice to Blockstream investors is to shut the company down now while you still have a chance and buy $21M worth of bitcoin right now while we're at a long term bottom.

The reason? There's no way in hell any bitcoin company will ever be able to outperform the BTC currency.  

Maybe farmer do better if he stops farming ... sells everything and only buys bitcoin.

Same must be best for merchant. He has to sell all goods and only buys bitcoin.



maybe so.

what investment in the world has done better than Bitcoin since its birth in 2009?   answer:  nothing.

plus, given all the fiat that has been and is being wasted in Bitcoin startups, altcoins, appcoins, that is how you tell we are not in a bubble.

If we all stop working and we will be only waiting then there will be nothing you will be able to buy with bitcoin.


Here understanding the economics is important. If everyone stopped working the demand for the lack in skills would increase, and the demand would reflect in the cost of goods and services.

Having hard money would allow the market to react efficiently.

At the moment we are over supplied with cheep goods and services provided by corporations who have access to or the ability to create cheap fiat.

Thank me in Bits 12MwnzxtprG2mHm3rKdgi7NmJKCypsMMQw
cypherdoc
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November 24, 2014, 07:41:15 PM
 #18048


The cynic in me would consider whether all the trolling you are doing here is for the benefit of the Blockstream investment pool to get some low-cost Due Diligence work out of us.  The sort of analysis you are getting from some of the folks here is pure gold. Wink

And my advice to Blockstream investors is to shut the company down now while you still have a chance and buy $21M worth of bitcoin right now while we're at a long term bottom.

The reason? There's no way in hell any bitcoin company will ever be able to outperform the BTC currency.  

Maybe farmer do better if he stops farming ... sells everything and only buys bitcoin.

Same must be best for merchant. He has to sell all goods and only buys bitcoin.





maybe so.

what investment in the world has done better than Bitcoin since its birth in 2009?   answer:  nothing.

plus, given all the fiat that has been and is being wasted in Bitcoin startups, altcoins, appcoins, that is how you tell we are not in a bubble.

If we all stop working and we will be only waiting then there will be nothing you will be able to buy with bitcoin.


you're smarter than this.  i'm not talking about absolutes here where everyone would want to invest in Bitcoin.  i'm talking about Bitcoiner's; the one's who care about this stuff we're doing here.  

as Adrian says above, those farmers will always love farming.  that is what they do best.  however, if Bitcoin takes over as the global reserve currency and farming becomes denominated in BTC, their lives will improve orders of magnitude.  look at them now; forced to hedge continually in financial markets through rigged futures markets that are just as volatile and unpredictable as Bitcoin.  all those business cycles they have to endure all facilitated by fiat printing by the Fed.  all that shit would go away with Bitcoin as sound money.
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November 24, 2014, 08:00:34 PM
 #18049


The cynic in me would consider whether all the trolling you are doing here is for the benefit of the Blockstream investment pool to get some low-cost Due Diligence work out of us.  The sort of analysis you are getting from some of the folks here is pure gold. Wink

And my advice to Blockstream investors is to shut the company down now while you still have a chance and buy $21M worth of bitcoin right now while we're at a long term bottom.

The reason? There's no way in hell any bitcoin company will ever be able to outperform the BTC currency.  

Maybe farmer do better if he stops farming ... sells everything and only buys bitcoin.

Same must be best for merchant. He has to sell all goods and only buys bitcoin.





maybe so.

what investment in the world has done better than Bitcoin since its birth in 2009?   answer:  nothing.

plus, given all the fiat that has been and is being wasted in Bitcoin startups, altcoins, appcoins, that is how you tell we are not in a bubble.

If we all stop working and we will be only waiting then there will be nothing you will be able to buy with bitcoin.


you're smarter than this.  i'm not talking about absolutes here where everyone would want to invest in Bitcoin.  i'm talking about Bitcoiner's; the one's who care about this stuff we're doing here.  

as Adrian says above, those farmers will always love farming.  that is what they do best. however, if Bitcoin takes over as the global reserve currency and farming becomes denominated in BTC, their lives will improve orders of magnitude.  look at them now; forced to hedge continually in financial markets through rigged futures markets that are just as volatile and unpredictable as Bitcoin.  all those business cycles they have to endure all facilitated by fiat printing by the Fed.  all that shit would go away with Bitcoin as sound money.

those crypto anarchists from Blockstream will always love to improve crypto currency. that is what they do best ... and they was building crypto for
decades.

SC is really amazing idea.  SCs + MC together create great new blockchain 2.0.  So try to look at it  "block-chain-2 = MC + N*SC".   And  BTC(currency) is not separated from block-chain but Blockstream found a way how to improve old block-chain.
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November 24, 2014, 08:20:17 PM
 #18050


The cynic in me would consider whether all the trolling you are doing here is for the benefit of the Blockstream investment pool to get some low-cost Due Diligence work out of us.  The sort of analysis you are getting from some of the folks here is pure gold. Wink

And my advice to Blockstream investors is to shut the company down now while you still have a chance and buy $21M worth of bitcoin right now while we're at a long term bottom.

The reason? There's no way in hell any bitcoin company will ever be able to outperform the BTC currency.  

Maybe farmer do better if he stops farming ... sells everything and only buys bitcoin.

Same must be best for merchant. He has to sell all goods and only buys bitcoin.



maybe so.

what investment in the world has done better than Bitcoin since its birth in 2009?   answer:  nothing.

plus, given all the fiat that has been and is being wasted in Bitcoin startups, altcoins, appcoins, that is how you tell we are not in a bubble.

If we all stop working and we will be only waiting then there will be nothing you will be able to buy with bitcoin.


you're smarter than this.  i'm not talking about absolutes here where everyone would want to invest in Bitcoin.  i'm talking about Bitcoiner's; the one's who care about this stuff we're doing here.  

as Adrian says above, those farmers will always love farming.  that is what they do best.  however, if Bitcoin takes over as the global reserve currency and farming becomes denominated in BTC, their lives will improve orders of magnitude.  look at them now; forced to hedge continually in financial markets through rigged futures markets that are just as volatile and unpredictable as Bitcoin.  all those business cycles they have to endure all facilitated by fiat printing by the Fed.  all that shit would go away with Bitcoin as sound money.

those crypto anarchists from Blockstream will always love to improve crypto currency. that is what they do best ... and they was building crypto for
decades.

SC is really amazing idea.  SCs + MC together create great new blockchain 2.0.  So try to look at it  "block-chain-2 = MC + N*SC".   And  BTC(currency) is not separated form block-chain but they found a way how to improve old block-chain.

I don't think you are reading everything posted here. The core Bitcoin deves working at BlockStream do not sound like crypto anarchists quite the opposite. 

Your eg. has merits but you are overlooking the mining that creates the MC does not encompass SCs. As far as the security incentives are concerned SCs are separated from the blockchain.

Thank me in Bits 12MwnzxtprG2mHm3rKdgi7NmJKCypsMMQw
Erdogan
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November 24, 2014, 09:20:26 PM
 #18051


The cynic in me would consider whether all the trolling you are doing here is for the benefit of the Blockstream investment pool to get some low-cost Due Diligence work out of us.  The sort of analysis you are getting from some of the folks here is pure gold. Wink

And my advice to Blockstream investors is to shut the company down now while you still have a chance and buy $21M worth of bitcoin right now while we're at a long term bottom.

The reason? There's no way in hell any bitcoin company will ever be able to outperform the BTC currency.  

Maybe farmer do better if he stops farming ... sells everything and only buys bitcoin.

Same must be best for merchant. He has to sell all goods and only buys bitcoin.





maybe so.

what investment in the world has done better than Bitcoin since its birth in 2009?   answer:  nothing.

plus, given all the fiat that has been and is being wasted in Bitcoin startups, altcoins, appcoins, that is how you tell we are not in a bubble.

If we all stop working and we will be only waiting then there will be nothing you will be able to buy with bitcoin.


In that case, there will be no S-curve, we will go straight up by the second, and normal wealth creation can resume.
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November 24, 2014, 09:33:34 PM
 #18052

I've been looking everywhere for this and someone finally found it for me. Thanks!

That was a brutal demonstration of heavy handedness displayed by those guys, gmax and lukejr. Fortunately, they were proven wrong in the end. The bitcoin.org press center  they were promoting got shot down, Ver got added to Andreas' new site,  and Matonis went on to serve 2y as TBF head. Justice got served.

https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin.org/pull/162#issuecomment-17151432

The really sad thing to note here is that those devs never relented to the majority opinion expressed in that GitHub thread. Sirius, the owner of bitcoin.org actually had to be contacted after 2 or so years of being in seclusion to resolve the dispute.

Martti Malmi, aka Sirius. He needs no introduction, but he is somewhat reclusive these days so it's not clear that he'd necessarily appreciate the nomination. Incidentally, he is the owner of the bitcoin.org domain.-Andreas

Sirius was shocked as to how these devs were ruling over his domain and immediately shut down their press center and demurred to Andreas'  new site.

And the other shocker? To this day, gmax sincerely believes he "won" that battle.  

gmax and lukejr are not original cryptoanarchists.  they are techno-communists.  here's a follow up discussion i had with gmax last month.  note the complete lack of contrition on his part regarding the Press Center debacle despite widespread community disapproval and at least 2 other high profile community members directly against them (Andreas and Trace Mayer) in the dispute along with myself.  from Reddit:

from nullc [-9] sent 1 month ago

The news center? lol. Becuase I thought it was imprudent to list a convicted felon as top contact on Bitcoin.org? You haven't a clue how much seedy and scammy stuff has been going on behind the scenes, I guess. That whole shitshow with Shrem and the Foundation? That half the foundation's board will no longer enter the US? It's important that Bitcoin the technology and the currency keep a distance from people's unlawful stunts (regardless of what we think about the morality of the laws), so that when the shit hits the fan Bitcoin can keep running.

I have no regrets about any of that, and I'm somewhat surprised to not hear from you... "You know, you were right."

me:  

this just goes to show how differently we see things. i was hoping you'd say the same thing to me. b/c in the end, Andreas' site is what became the preferred go to Press Center and included Ver and Matonis, nevermind the community outrage over what you guys did.
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November 24, 2014, 10:05:07 PM
 #18053

everyone knows who Sarah Meiklejohn is right?  she's the UCSD CS who published this paper on Bitcoin anonymity:  http://cseweb.ucsd.edu/~smeiklejohn/files/login13.pdf

in this Princeton video, she reveals the tension btwn academic researchers and the Bitcoin core devs during the Q&A.  the whole video is worth watching to put it into perspective:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nobNFRU1WQQ
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November 24, 2014, 10:05:36 PM
 #18054

I've been looking everywhere for this and someone finally found it for me. Thanks!

That was a brutal demonstration of heavy handedness displayed by those guys, gmax and lukejr. Fortunately, they were proven wrong in the end. The bitcoin.org press center  they were promoting got shot down, Ver got added to Andreas' new site,  and Matonis went on to serve 2y as TBF head. Justice got served.

https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin.org/pull/162#issuecomment-17151432

The really sad thing to note here is that those devs never relented to the majority opinion expressed in that GitHub thread. Sirius, the owner of bitcoin.org actually had to be contacted after 2 or so years of being in seclusion to resolve the dispute.

Martti Malmi, aka Sirius. He needs no introduction, but he is somewhat reclusive these days so it's not clear that he'd necessarily appreciate the nomination. Incidentally, he is the owner of the bitcoin.org domain.-Andreas

Sirius was shocked as to how these devs were ruling over his domain and immediately shut down their press center and demurred to Andreas'  new site.

And the other shocker? To this day, gmax sincerely believes he "won" that battle.  

gmax and lukejr are not original cryptoanarchists.  they are techno-communists.  here's a follow up discussion i had with gmax last month.  note the complete lack of contrition on his part regarding the Press Center debacle despite widespread community disapproval and at least 2 other high profile community members directly against them (Andreas and Trace Mayer) in the dispute along with myself.  from Reddit:

from nullc [-9] sent 1 month ago

The news center? lol. Becuase I thought it was imprudent to list a convicted felon as top contact on Bitcoin.org? You haven't a clue how much seedy and scammy stuff has been going on behind the scenes, I guess. That whole shitshow with Shrem and the Foundation? That half the foundation's board will no longer enter the US? It's important that Bitcoin the technology and the currency keep a distance from people's unlawful stunts (regardless of what we think about the morality of the laws), so that when the shit hits the fan Bitcoin can keep running.

I have no regrets about any of that, and I'm somewhat surprised to not hear from you... "You know, you were right."

me:  

this just goes to show how differently we see things. i was hoping you'd say the same thing to me. b/c in the end, Andreas' site is what became the preferred go to Press Center and included Ver and Matonis, nevermind the community outrage over what you guys did.


I like gmax and his work. I have never met him(he does not know me) but I understand what how and why he wants to say.
 => He is not techno-communists.


It is not easy to understand. It is all about math logic.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=318279.0

Quote
I am fascinated by Tim May's crypto-anarchy. Unlike the communities traditionally associated with the word "anarchy", in a crypto-anarchy the government is not temporarily destroyed but permanently forbidden and permanently unnecessary. It's a community where the threat of violence is impotent because violence is impossible, and violence is impossible because its participants cannot be linked to their true names or physical locations.

Until now it's not clear, even theoretically, how such a community could operate. A community is defined by the cooperation of its participants, and efficient cooperation requires a medium of exchange (money) and a way to enforce contracts. Traditionally these services have been provided by the government or government sponsored institutions and only to legal entities. In this article I describe a protocol by which these services can be provided to and by untraceable entities.

Edit:
Bitcoin(money) + SC(a way to enforce contracts) can replace "Traditionally services(government)".

Edit2:
 - do not trust gmax
 - do not trust government
 - your signature in blockchain-2 is proving what you did (and wanted to do)
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November 24, 2014, 10:30:37 PM
 #18055

I've been looking everywhere for this and someone finally found it for me. Thanks!

That was a brutal demonstration of heavy handedness displayed by those guys, gmax and lukejr. Fortunately, they were proven wrong in the end. The bitcoin.org press center  they were promoting got shot down, Ver got added to Andreas' new site,  and Matonis went on to serve 2y as TBF head. Justice got served.

https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin.org/pull/162#issuecomment-17151432

The really sad thing to note here is that those devs never relented to the majority opinion expressed in that GitHub thread. Sirius, the owner of bitcoin.org actually had to be contacted after 2 or so years of being in seclusion to resolve the dispute.

Martti Malmi, aka Sirius. He needs no introduction, but he is somewhat reclusive these days so it's not clear that he'd necessarily appreciate the nomination. Incidentally, he is the owner of the bitcoin.org domain.-Andreas

Sirius was shocked as to how these devs were ruling over his domain and immediately shut down their press center and demurred to Andreas'  new site.

And the other shocker? To this day, gmax sincerely believes he "won" that battle.  

gmax and lukejr are not original cryptoanarchists.  they are techno-communists.  here's a follow up discussion i had with gmax last month.  note the complete lack of contrition on his part regarding the Press Center debacle despite widespread community disapproval and at least 2 other high profile community members directly against them (Andreas and Trace Mayer) in the dispute along with myself.  from Reddit:

from nullc [-9] sent 1 month ago

The news center? lol. Becuase I thought it was imprudent to list a convicted felon as top contact on Bitcoin.org? You haven't a clue how much seedy and scammy stuff has been going on behind the scenes, I guess. That whole shitshow with Shrem and the Foundation? That half the foundation's board will no longer enter the US? It's important that Bitcoin the technology and the currency keep a distance from people's unlawful stunts (regardless of what we think about the morality of the laws), so that when the shit hits the fan Bitcoin can keep running.

I have no regrets about any of that, and I'm somewhat surprised to not hear from you... "You know, you were right."

me:  

this just goes to show how differently we see things. i was hoping you'd say the same thing to me. b/c in the end, Andreas' site is what became the preferred go to Press Center and included Ver and Matonis, nevermind the community outrage over what you guys did.


I like gmax and his work. I have never met him(he does not know me) but I understand what how and why he wants to say.
 => He is not techno-communists.


It is not easy to understand. It is all about math logic.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=318279.0

Quote
I am fascinated by Tim May's crypto-anarchy. Unlike the communities traditionally associated with the word "anarchy", in a crypto-anarchy the government is not temporarily destroyed but permanently forbidden and permanently unnecessary. It's a community where the threat of violence is impotent because violence is impossible, and violence is impossible because its participants cannot be linked to their true names or physical locations.

Until now it's not clear, even theoretically, how such a community could operate. A community is defined by the cooperation of its participants, and efficient cooperation requires a medium of exchange (money) and a way to enforce contracts. Traditionally these services have been provided by the government or government sponsored institutions and only to legal entities. In this article I describe a protocol by which these services can be provided to and by untraceable entities.

Edit:
Bitcoin(money) + SC(a way to enforce contracts) can replace "Traditionally services(government)".
+1

Hit the nail on the head, once again.

Cypher you are making this too easy, I don't even have to say a word and our dear Odalv continues to try and make you see the light.

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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November 24, 2014, 10:39:54 PM
 #18056

i understand what you guys want to do, ie, mathematically enforce all contracts and financial dealings so that force from gvts is unnecessary or even obsoleted.  it's a laudable goal and very understandable.  we are all on the same page with that.

i just disagree with how you're trying to accomplish that.
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November 24, 2014, 10:47:55 PM
 #18057

i understand what you guys want to do, ie, mathematically enforce all contracts and financial dealings so that force from gvts is unnecessary or even obsoleted.  it's a laudable goal and very understandable.  we are all on the same page with that.

i just disagree with how you're trying to accomplish that.

No, you disagree simply because of previous butt hurt with gmax & lukejr. After some digging it is clear as day your problem is your ego.

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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November 24, 2014, 10:52:33 PM
 #18058

i understand what you guys want to do, ie, mathematically enforce all contracts and financial dealings so that force from gvts is unnecessary or even obsoleted.  it's a laudable goal and very understandable.  we are all on the same page with that.

yes, this is our goal. (SCs invented by Blockstream)

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i just disagree with how you're trying to accomplish that.

There is not other theory what can explain how to do it (there are many with errors) . SC is the first idea what describes how this can be realized. (I did not find error ... it does not mean there is not error)
cypherdoc
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November 24, 2014, 10:54:17 PM
 #18059

i understand what you guys want to do, ie, mathematically enforce all contracts and financial dealings so that force from gvts is unnecessary or even obsoleted.  it's a laudable goal and very understandable.  we are all on the same page with that.

i just disagree with how you're trying to accomplish that.

No, you disagree simply because of previous butt hurt with gmax & lukejr. After some digging it is clear as day your problem is your ego.

no, the disagreement has to do with your lame brain idea of splitting the currency unit from the blockchain.  simple as that.  it's stupid.
Odalv
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November 24, 2014, 11:08:46 PM
 #18060


I don't think you are reading everything posted here.

I'm sorry. My english is not good enough to explain details.
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