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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 1902277 times)
brg444
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November 24, 2014, 11:33:40 PM
 #18061

more and more realization about the Sound Money advantages of Bitcoin from the gold community.  forget intra-protocol speculative trading:

Bullion Dealer Agora Commodities Will Rebrand to Focus on Bitcoin

http://www.coindesk.com/agora-commodities-rebrand-bitcoin/

forget speculation

there is no speculation

there is no spoon

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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November 24, 2014, 11:37:11 PM
 #18062

i understand what you guys want to do, ie, mathematically enforce all contracts and financial dealings so that force from gvts is unnecessary or even obsoleted.  it's a laudable goal and very understandable.  we are all on the same page with that.

yes, this is our goal. (SCs invented by Blockstream)

Quote
i just disagree with how you're trying to accomplish that.

There is not other theory what can explain how to do it (there are many with errors) . SC is the first idea what describes how this can be realized. (I did not find error ... it does not mean there is not error)


You've already pointed out how to do it, the example you cited doesn't affect the mining incentives and thus has no impact on Bitcoin as is. 

Federated servers use multisig (bitcoin already support multisig). One server(one owner) has one signature. You choose how much server do you trust N and how many of them have to sign M.  => M of N  ( eq. 3 of 5 )

Thank me in Bits 12MwnzxtprG2mHm3rKdgi7NmJKCypsMMQw
brg444
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November 24, 2014, 11:42:59 PM
 #18063

i understand what you guys want to do, ie, mathematically enforce all contracts and financial dealings so that force from gvts is unnecessary or even obsoleted.  it's a laudable goal and very understandable.  we are all on the same page with that.

yes, this is our goal. (SCs invented by Blockstream)

Quote
i just disagree with how you're trying to accomplish that.

There is not other theory what can explain how to do it (there are many with errors) . SC is the first idea what describes how this can be realized. (I did not find error ... it does not mean there is not error)


You've already pointed out how to do it, the example you cited doesn't affect the mining incentives and thus has no impact on Bitcoin as is. 

Federated servers use multisig (bitcoin already support multisig). One server(one owner) has one signature. You choose how much server do you trust N and how many of them have to sign M.  => M of N  ( eq. 3 of 5 )

Quote
Once sidechains with a federated peg are in use, the addition of SPV verification to Bitcoin script can be seen as merely a security upgrade to reduce the trust required in the system. Existing sidechains could simply migrate their coins to the new verification system. This approach also opens additional security options: the DMMS provided by mining is not very secure for small systems, while the trust of the federation is riskier for large systems. A sidechain could adaptively use both 530 of these approaches in parallel, or even switch based on apparent hashrate.

Federated and offchain models on a large scale are a danger to the miners incentive.

Pick your poison

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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November 24, 2014, 11:47:53 PM
 #18064

i understand what you guys want to do, ie, mathematically enforce all contracts and financial dealings so that force from gvts is unnecessary or even obsoleted.  it's a laudable goal and very understandable.  we are all on the same page with that.

yes, this is our goal. (SCs invented by Blockstream)

Quote
i just disagree with how you're trying to accomplish that.

There is not other theory what can explain how to do it (there are many with errors) . SC is the first idea what describes how this can be realized. (I did not find error ... it does not mean there is not error)


You've already pointed out how to do it, the example you cited doesn't affect the mining incentives and thus has no impact on Bitcoin as is.  

Federated servers use multisig (bitcoin already support multisig). One server(one owner) has one signature. You choose how much server do you trust N and how many of them have to sign M.  => M of N  ( eq. 3 of 5 )

Quote
Once sidechains with a federated peg are in use, the addition of SPV verification to Bitcoin script can be seen as merely a security upgrade to reduce the trust required in the system. Existing sidechains could simply migrate their coins to the new verification system. This approach also opens additional security options: the DMMS provided by mining is not very secure for small systems, while the trust of the federation is riskier for large systems. A sidechain could adaptively use both 530 of these approaches in parallel, or even switch based on apparent hashrate.

Federated and offchain models on a large scale are a danger to the miners incentive.

Pick your poison

there's the FUD again.  

go ahead and use federated servers if you want.  as long as they don't change source code.

but they aren't going to succeed anyways b/c of centralization and insecurity.  AND the fact that ppl will hold BTC until the last moment before using the server for whatever function or asset it offers. and then they will withdraw immediately.  that's b/c of the opportunity cost of losing out on BTC appreciation over time.  b/c of that reduced liquidity of the server asset, it won't be valued.  

so Blockstream, don't expect to make any money off federated servers.
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November 24, 2014, 11:51:51 PM
 #18065

i understand what you guys want to do, ie, mathematically enforce all contracts and financial dealings so that force from gvts is unnecessary or even obsoleted.  it's a laudable goal and very understandable.  we are all on the same page with that.

yes, this is our goal. (SCs invented by Blockstream)

Quote
i just disagree with how you're trying to accomplish that.

There is not other theory what can explain how to do it (there are many with errors) . SC is the first idea what describes how this can be realized. (I did not find error ... it does not mean there is not error)


You've already pointed out how to do it, the example you cited doesn't affect the mining incentives and thus has no impact on Bitcoin as is.  

Federated servers use multisig (bitcoin already support multisig). One server(one owner) has one signature. You choose how much server do you trust N and how many of them have to sign M.  => M of N  ( eq. 3 of 5 )

Quote
Once sidechains with a federated peg are in use, the addition of SPV verification to Bitcoin script can be seen as merely a security upgrade to reduce the trust required in the system. Existing sidechains could simply migrate their coins to the new verification system. This approach also opens additional security options: the DMMS provided by mining is not very secure for small systems, while the trust of the federation is riskier for large systems. A sidechain could adaptively use both 530 of these approaches in parallel, or even switch based on apparent hashrate.

Federated and offchain models on a large scale are a danger to the miners incentive.

Pick your poison

there's the FUD again.  

go ahead and use federated servers if you want.  as long as they don't change source code.

but they aren't going to succeed anyways b/c of centralization and insecurity.  AND the fact that ppl will hold BTC until the last moment before using the server for whatever function or asset it offers. and then they will withdraw immediately.  that's b/c of the opportunity cost of losing out on BTC appreciation over time.  b/c of that reduced liquidity of the server asset, it won't be valued.  

so Blockstream, don't expect to make any money off federated servers.

 Huh

it seems to me Coinbase, Circle, Bitfinex, Bitstamp, every and any exchange or off-chain schemes can be considered relatively successful even with their centralized model.

There is no "opportunity cost" of losing out on BTC because they are redeemable 1:1, no matter the fluctuating value of the scBTC.


"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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November 24, 2014, 11:52:28 PM
 #18066

another article on the Currency Wars.  Bitcoin wants to be in the middle of this.  ultimately, fiat currency will be consumed by the soundest of monies; Bitcoin.  forget SC's and intra-protocol speculation that will enrich Blockstream at the expense of Bitcoin as Money:

WSJ's Mattich: The Currency War is On

http://www.newsmax.com/Finance/Mattich-currency-war-China/2014/11/23/id/609158/
brg444
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November 24, 2014, 11:53:20 PM
 #18067

another article on the Currency Wars.  Bitcoin wants to be in the middle of this.  ultimately, fiat currency will be consumed by the soundest of monies; Bitcoin.  forget SC's and intra-protocol speculation that will enrich Blockstream at the expense of Bitcoin as Money:

WSJ's Mattich: The Currency War is On

http://www.newsmax.com/Finance/Mattich-currency-war-China/2014/11/23/id/609158/

forget speculation

there is no speculation

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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November 24, 2014, 11:58:05 PM
 #18068

i understand what you guys want to do, ie, mathematically enforce all contracts and financial dealings so that force from gvts is unnecessary or even obsoleted.  it's a laudable goal and very understandable.  we are all on the same page with that.

yes, this is our goal. (SCs invented by Blockstream)

Quote
i just disagree with how you're trying to accomplish that.

There is not other theory what can explain how to do it (there are many with errors) . SC is the first idea what describes how this can be realized. (I did not find error ... it does not mean there is not error)


You've already pointed out how to do it, the example you cited doesn't affect the mining incentives and thus has no impact on Bitcoin as is.  

Federated servers use multisig (bitcoin already support multisig). One server(one owner) has one signature. You choose how much server do you trust N and how many of them have to sign M.  => M of N  ( eq. 3 of 5 )

Quote
Once sidechains with a federated peg are in use, the addition of SPV verification to Bitcoin script can be seen as merely a security upgrade to reduce the trust required in the system. Existing sidechains could simply migrate their coins to the new verification system. This approach also opens additional security options: the DMMS provided by mining is not very secure for small systems, while the trust of the federation is riskier for large systems. A sidechain could adaptively use both 530 of these approaches in parallel, or even switch based on apparent hashrate.

Federated and offchain models on a large scale are a danger to the miners incentive.

Pick your poison

there's the FUD again.  

go ahead and use federated servers if you want.  as long as they don't change source code.

but they aren't going to succeed anyways b/c of centralization and insecurity.  AND the fact that ppl will hold BTC until the last moment before using the server for whatever function or asset it offers. and then they will withdraw immediately.  that's b/c of the opportunity cost of losing out on BTC appreciation over time.  b/c of that reduced liquidity of the server asset, it won't be valued.  

so Blockstream, don't expect to make any money off federated servers.

 Huh

it seems to me Coinbase, Circle, Bitfinex, Bitstamp, every and any exchange or off-chain schemes can be considered relatively successful even with their centralized model.

There is no "opportunity cost" of losing out on BTC because they are redeemable 1:1, no matter the fluctuating value of the scBTC.



yes they are.  and that's b/c they have some regulation in place that alot of ppl seem to value.  not everyone is an anarcho-capitalist.

otoh, what assurances to ppl have with federated servers?  they could disappear in a moment and no one would have any recourse. 

the 1:1 spvp is vaporware at the moment.  and MM is theoretical at best.  NMC is not a valid example of success. 
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November 25, 2014, 12:04:01 AM
 #18069

yes they are.  and that's b/c they have some regulation in place that alot of ppl seem to value.  not everyone is an anarcho-capitalist.

otoh, what assurances to ppl have with federated servers?  they could disappear in a moment and no one would have any recourse.  

the 1:1 spvp is vaporware at the moment.  and MM is theoretical at best.  NMC is not a valid example of success.

 Cheesy

your disingenuity knows no bounds.

I suggest you leave technical assertions to technical people.

Not that I am one but saying things such as "federated servers could vanish" (as if Bitstamp, Bitfinex or BTC-e couldn't), "1:1 spvp is vaporware" and "MM is theoretical at best" only serves to make you look like a clown who has little clue what he is talking about.

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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November 25, 2014, 12:04:06 AM
 #18070

i understand what you guys want to do, ie, mathematically enforce all contracts and financial dealings so that force from gvts is unnecessary or even obsoleted.  it's a laudable goal and very understandable.  we are all on the same page with that.

yes, this is our goal. (SCs invented by Blockstream)

Quote
i just disagree with how you're trying to accomplish that.

There is not other theory what can explain how to do it (there are many with errors) . SC is the first idea what describes how this can be realized. (I did not find error ... it does not mean there is not error)


You've already pointed out how to do it, the example you cited doesn't affect the mining incentives and thus has no impact on Bitcoin as is.  

Federated servers use multisig (bitcoin already support multisig). One server(one owner) has one signature. You choose how much server do you trust N and how many of them have to sign M.  => M of N  ( eq. 3 of 5 )

Quote
Once sidechains with a federated peg are in use, the addition of SPV verification to Bitcoin script can be seen as merely a security upgrade to reduce the trust required in the system. Existing sidechains could simply migrate their coins to the new verification system. This approach also opens additional security options: the DMMS provided by mining is not very secure for small systems, while the trust of the federation is riskier for large systems. A sidechain could adaptively use both 530 of these approaches in parallel, or even switch based on apparent hashrate.

Federated and offchain models on a large scale are a danger to the miners incentive.

Pick your poison

Citation needed, this is just conjecture

my position is clear, dont make the protocol change.

just because the impact is belittled in the whitepaper calling it a mere security upgrade, doesn't make your argument. it's not a mere security upgrade, its a huge change to the protocol that alters the incentive system that secures Bitcoin. it may be a mere change to developers who've go to dev, but it's has economic impacts you repeatedly undermine.  

 FTFU
"the addition of SPV verification to Bitcoin script can be seen as merely a security upgrade as a way to final separate the value on the block chain from BTC the asset to reduce the trust required in the system."

Thank me in Bits 12MwnzxtprG2mHm3rKdgi7NmJKCypsMMQw
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November 25, 2014, 12:07:46 AM
 #18071

poor Blockstream investors.  $21M down the drain on a hair brain idea of separating the currency unit from the blockchain.

that is how you know we are not in a bubble.
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November 25, 2014, 12:12:22 AM
 #18072

there will be more QE.  do you know what that means?  value will flow to the soundest form of money on the market, just like it has the last 6 yrs.  and which currency has that been?  BITCOIN.

“the unfolding deflationary quagmire into which we are sinking will get worse and there will be more Fed QE.”

SocGen's Edwards: Deflationary 'Quagmire' Will Spur More Fed Stimulus


http://www.newsmax.com/Finance/Societe-Generale-Albert-Edwards-Federal-Reserve-inflation/2014/11/24/id/609261/

don't let the apparatchiks screw things up by changing the source code to their own advantage.
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November 25, 2014, 12:14:11 AM
 #18073

there will be more QE.  do you know what that means?  value will flow to the soundest form of money on the market, just like it has the last 6 yrs.  and which currency has that been?  BITCOIN.

“the unfolding deflationary quagmire into which we are sinking will get worse and there will be more Fed QE.”

SocGen's Edwards: Deflationary 'Quagmire' Will Spur More Fed Stimulus


http://www.newsmax.com/Finance/Societe-Generale-Albert-Edwards-Federal-Reserve-inflation/2014/11/24/id/609261/

don't let the apparatchiks screw things up by changing the source code to their own advantage.

Or gold Tongue

Forgive my petulance and oft-times, I fear, ill-founded criticisms, and forgive me that I have, by this time, made your eyes and head ache with my long letter. But I cannot forgo hastily the pleasure and pride of thus conversing with you.
brg444
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November 25, 2014, 12:15:14 AM
 #18074

i understand what you guys want to do, ie, mathematically enforce all contracts and financial dealings so that force from gvts is unnecessary or even obsoleted.  it's a laudable goal and very understandable.  we are all on the same page with that.

yes, this is our goal. (SCs invented by Blockstream)

Quote
i just disagree with how you're trying to accomplish that.

There is not other theory what can explain how to do it (there are many with errors) . SC is the first idea what describes how this can be realized. (I did not find error ... it does not mean there is not error)


You've already pointed out how to do it, the example you cited doesn't affect the mining incentives and thus has no impact on Bitcoin as is. 

Federated servers use multisig (bitcoin already support multisig). One server(one owner) has one signature. You choose how much server do you trust N and how many of them have to sign M.  => M of N  ( eq. 3 of 5 )

Quote
Once sidechains with a federated peg are in use, the addition of SPV verification to Bitcoin script can be seen as merely a security upgrade to reduce the trust required in the system. Existing sidechains could simply migrate their coins to the new verification system. This approach also opens additional security options: the DMMS provided by mining is not very secure for small systems, while the trust of the federation is riskier for large systems. A sidechain could adaptively use both 530 of these approaches in parallel, or even switch based on apparent hashrate.

Federated and offchain models on a large scale are a danger to the miners incentive.

Pick your poison

Citation needed, this is just conjecture

my position is clear, dont make the protocol change.

just because the impact is belittled in the whitepaper calling it a mere security upgrade, doesn't make your argument. it's not a mere security upgrade, its a huge change to the protocol that alters the incentive system that secures Bitcoin. it may be a mere change to a developers who've go to dev, but it's has economic impacts you repeatedly undermine.  

 FTFU
"the addition of SPV verification to Bitcoin script can be seen as merely a security upgrade as a way to final separate the value on the block chain from BTC the asset to reduce the trust required in the system."

Maybe they are undermined because of your failure to illustrate these dangers in details and in plausible context?

The last part just goes to show you and your teamate stubbornness and incapacity to recognize that the value is seperated from the Blockchain everyday through schemes much less legitimate and or secure than what sidechains potentially provide.

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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November 25, 2014, 12:16:02 AM
 #18075


I like gmax and his work. I have never met him(he does not know me) but I understand what how and why he wants to say.
 => He is not techno-communists.


I also like gmax and his work.  We met in AMS in 2013 (and prior to that, though he didn't remember).
He knows me mostly by my writing.  He doesn't like my criticisms of government.  Still we have more in common than we have differences.
I'm not a political guy, don't adhere to any party, but I do love liberty, and I tend to say so right out in public.
I've spent many hours in the company of the "original" cypherpunks so certainly some things have rubbed off on me.

I wouldn't characterise gmaxwell as a communist, but I really wouldn't know if he were.

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November 25, 2014, 12:18:45 AM
 #18076

poor Blockstream investors.  $21M down the drain on a hair brain idea of separating the currency unit from the blockchain.

that is how you know we are not in a bubble.

yeah. poor billionaires  Roll Eyes

they should've asked cypherdoc before trusting some of the most competent and well educated people in the sphere.

btw I will repeat, just as an attempt to maybe drive the point home one last time, that the concern is not separating the unit from the blockchain (which is technically not true of sidechains anyway) but the seperation of the value from the ledger.


"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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November 25, 2014, 01:07:26 AM
 #18077

there will be more QE.  do you know what that means?  value will flow to the soundest form of money on the market, just like it has the last 6 yrs.  and which currency has that been?  BITCOIN.

“the unfolding deflationary quagmire into which we are sinking will get worse and there will be more Fed QE.”

SocGen's Edwards: Deflationary 'Quagmire' Will Spur More Fed Stimulus


http://www.newsmax.com/Finance/Societe-Generale-Albert-Edwards-Federal-Reserve-inflation/2014/11/24/id/609261/

don't let the apparatchiks screw things up by changing the source code to their own advantage.

...but but but - bitcoin has to speed up a bit, else we get  Σ1-n[national currencies] -> dollar -> bitcoin

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November 25, 2014, 01:14:23 AM
 #18078

poor Blockstream investors.  $21M down the drain on a hair brain idea of separating the currency unit from the blockchain.

that is how you know we are not in a bubble.

yeah. poor billionaires  Roll Eyes

they should've asked cypherdoc before trusting some of the most competent and well educated people in the sphere.

btw I will repeat, just as an attempt to maybe drive the point home one last time, that the concern is not separating the unit from the blockchain (which is technically not true of sidechains anyway) but the seperation of the value from the ledger.


Oh yes, that makes all the difference. I feel good now, I can own part of a ledger, that has been separated from it's value, how does this add more value to the ledger again?  Earlier, I was questioning the essence of your position on the SC debate, and that was, why is it assumed that we need to separating the value stored in the ledger? This argument is missing from your input.  

To be honest I like to learn, and the lessons that cost the most, have a big impact.
If you are familiar with my history in this thread, I thought Cypher was a doof (sorry cypher). I never engaged just observed for a long time. I studied everything Bitcoin, I beveled it was a digital p2p currency and going to take over the world, anyway I thought gold was for Boomers, and dead, but after reading the counter arguments here I though Gold was about to boom and I had been wrong, little did I know it was at its top. I cashed out a lot of bitcoin at about $10 and bought gold, I was sick of cypher always closing the argument by looking at the statistics. Gold collapsing. Bitcoin up. they were dependent on the time he made the claim and not relevant at the moment back then .

I was so cretin in my belief that Bitcoin was Currency, I have lots of data, I tracked the money velocity, the total trade on SR, I monitored 3 exchanges, I had analysed, and predicted each bull and bear run up until then I was convinced that based on the fundamentals that Bitcoin was going to crash down to about $3 and have a slow slide down as it worked out some economic glitches that I didn't like.

But just then Bitcoin shot up to $260, and left me behind, lots of new info was posted here and I read an article written in about 2007 it talked about Store of Value and why gold has it, and what property makes it,  I've looked for it since but never found it, it changed me thanks whoever posted it.  

The conclusion I came to was Bitcoin could be a currency or a payment network but both those are not what is going on here, what is actually happening is Bitcoin is emerging as a Store of Value, and I changed my strategy.

So when I read stuff that is dicking with the value stored on the ledger, I see people messing with stuff they don't understand, Bitcoin is going to be the SoV, and once that happens it will evolve.
The SoV comes first and foremost, and to get there you can't be tweaking with the idea of separating the value on the ledger, that threatens the very thing that makes Bitcoin grow.  

Thank me in Bits 12MwnzxtprG2mHm3rKdgi7NmJKCypsMMQw
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November 25, 2014, 01:19:37 AM
 #18079

...

I like gmax and his work. I have never met him(he does not know me) but I understand what how and why he wants to say.
 => He is not techno-communists.


It is not easy to understand. It is all about math logic.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=318279.0

Quote
I am fascinated by Tim May's crypto-anarchy. Unlike the communities traditionally associated with the word "anarchy", in a crypto-anarchy the government is not temporarily destroyed but permanently forbidden and permanently unnecessary. It's a community where the threat of violence is impotent because violence is impossible, and violence is impossible because its participants cannot be linked to their true names or physical locations.

Until now it's not clear, even theoretically, how such a community could operate. A community is defined by the cooperation of its participants, and efficient cooperation requires a medium of exchange (money) and a way to enforce contracts. Traditionally these services have been provided by the government or government sponsored institutions and only to legal entities. In this article I describe a protocol by which these services can be provided to and by untraceable entities.

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Just in case anyone's wondering (since it wasn't cited), that quote is from Wei Dai's 1998 "b-money" proposal: http://www.weidai.com/bmoney.txt

Bitcoin is the first monetary system to credibly offer perfect information to all economic participants.
But Bitcointalk & /r/bitcoin are heavily censored. bitco.in/forum, forum.bitcoin.com, and /r/btc are open.
Best info on Casascius coins: http://spotcoins.com/casascius
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November 25, 2014, 01:21:58 AM
 #18080

poor Blockstream investors.  $21M down the drain on a hair brain idea of separating the currency unit from the blockchain.

that is how you know we are not in a bubble.

yeah. poor billionaires  Roll Eyes

they should've asked cypherdoc before trusting some of the most competent and well educated people in the sphere.

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I'm sure they all subscribe to his newsletter.  I mean it's probably worth the dirt-cheap price for a good chuckle now and then.


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