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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 1804215 times)
STT
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November 28, 2014, 03:17:55 AM
 #18121

Mining of gold keeps it relative to the wider economy.  A large part of gold costs are the price of oil to fuel various machines and the smelting.    If gold were a totally enclosed market its price would be less accurate.
Also the availability of gold does relate to its trading use as not just one country has control of it, its a widely distributed element.

We recognise that in bitcoin, that if all mining becomes based in China ASIC farms that there is a danger the network is no longer as secure.  Distributed peer to peer transactions help improve accuracy and reliability of the total bitcoin worth and market effectiveness.   Mining in gold and the possibility of even the relatively amateur masses to find gold does help keep it a peoples currency not just central bank vault candy.  

 Capitalism is the widely distributed and equal worth of a currency freely exchanged, we are living in a world of QE and central controlled worth and we no longer recognise what capitalism was

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November 28, 2014, 03:41:48 AM
 #18122

Fleeing from rubles:

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November 28, 2014, 03:55:30 AM
 #18123


That's interesting.

I'm surprised the Ukraine hasn't kicked in with some demand for BTC, apparently BTC has been available at over 4900 ATM's and they're seeing double digit fiat inflation. Not to mention the The National Bank over there prohibiting the use of Bitcoin in direct exchange for goods and services. So obviously taking precautions to protect it's fiat but Bitcon still available as an investment.

Thank me in Bits 12MwnzxtprG2mHm3rKdgi7NmJKCypsMMQw
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November 28, 2014, 10:10:24 AM
 #18124

http://wallstreetpit.com/106363-the-false-analogy-between-gold-and-bitcoin/

The fails just keep on coming. I love his note at the bottom.

How is this a fail?  David Andolfatto is pointing out that bitcoin miners serve a more socially-useful purpose than gold miners: bitcoin miners process transactions and secure the ledger (in addition to finding new bitcoins), while gold miners just find new gold.  In other words, the resources spent mining bitcoin are a necessary evil while the resources spent mining gold aren't (because we don't need gold miners to find new gold in order for the "gold ledger" to remain secure and for gold to be useful as a medium of exchange).  

Gold mining is necessary as well. Without an ongoing completive effort at mining, there is no way to know that gold is really as scarce as we think it is.



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November 28, 2014, 10:12:24 AM
 #18125

You never know when you will get caught out by a new innovation. There is a minuscule amount of gold in each gallon of sea water. However there must be hundreds of tons of gold in an ocean.

More like millions of tons! source

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November 28, 2014, 11:36:46 AM
 #18126

You never know when you will get caught out by a new innovation. There is a minuscule amount of gold in each gallon of sea water. However there must be hundreds of tons of gold in an ocean.

More like millions of tons! source

Combine with wave power energy generators...
http://www.pelamiswave.com/

You can mine gold from the water that flows through the area, and if the gold concentration falls you can use the electricity to mine bitcoin and the water for cooling.

So who's in?

FREE MONEY1 Bitcoin for Silver and Gold NewLibertyDollar.com and now BITCOIN SPECIE (silver 1 ozt) shows value by QR
Bulk premiums as low as .0012 BTC "BETTER, MORE COLLECTIBLE, AND CHEAPER THAN SILVER EAGLES" 1Free of Government
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November 28, 2014, 03:54:09 PM
 #18127

Gold collapsing.  Bitcoin UP.
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November 28, 2014, 05:54:18 PM
 #18128

perhaps the most important chart of the day:

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November 28, 2014, 06:51:45 PM
 #18129

What do you guys make of the recent negative GOFO rate, could the bullion banks be about to default? paper gold prices could well collapse but physical metal will trade at astronomic levels

https://www.quandl.com/OFDP/GOLD_3-LBMA-Gold-Forward-Offered-Rates-GOFO
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November 28, 2014, 07:51:42 PM
 #18130

Bitcoin blossoming with butterflies and angle choir.
Gold absolutely in the gutter with rats and bad smell.
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November 28, 2014, 08:06:52 PM
 #18131

Oil collapsing. Bitcoin UP.

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November 28, 2014, 08:17:39 PM
 #18132

Ripple UP more than Bitcoin UP

>15years analysis experience

Always do your own due diligence & consult your financial advisor. Never invest unless you can afford to lose your entire investment.

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November 28, 2014, 08:18:31 PM
 #18133

So is this the bullion banks smashing the price prior to the swiss vote?
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November 28, 2014, 08:24:36 PM
 #18134

Perhaps but also in the larger trend collapsing faith in the paper markets. It is not the perceived value of the metal that is dropping but the perceived value of the paper contract. The fact that the backwardation exists is a sign that the holders of the metal don't trust the integrity of the futures.
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November 28, 2014, 08:41:09 PM
 #18135

Perhaps but also in the larger trend collapsing faith in the paper markets. It is not the perceived value of the metal that is dropping but the perceived value of the paper contract. The fact that the backwardation exists is a sign that the holders of the metal don't trust the integrity of the futures.

this is what all the goldbugs want you to believe.

it was the paper market that allowed the elevation to today's values in the first place. 

it's over.
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November 28, 2014, 08:46:14 PM
 #18136

Perhaps but also in the larger trend collapsing faith in the paper markets. It is not the perceived value of the metal that is dropping but the perceived value of the paper contract. The fact that the backwardation exists is a sign that the holders of the metal don't trust the integrity of the futures.

this is what all the goldbugs want you to believe.

it was the paper market that allowed the elevation to today's values in the first place. 

it's over.
Could you please elaborate a bit on that?

Paper = more supply, how more supply can make prices higher?
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November 28, 2014, 08:54:54 PM
 #18137

Perhaps but also in the larger trend collapsing faith in the paper markets. It is not the perceived value of the metal that is dropping but the perceived value of the paper contract. The fact that the backwardation exists is a sign that the holders of the metal don't trust the integrity of the futures.

this is what all the goldbugs want you to believe.

it was the paper market that allowed the elevation to today's values in the first place. 

it's over.
Could you please elaborate a bit on that?

Paper = more supply, how more supply can make prices higher?

leverage
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November 28, 2014, 08:55:15 PM
 #18138

http://wallstreetpit.com/106363-the-false-analogy-between-gold-and-bitcoin/

The fails just keep on coming. I love his note at the bottom.

How is this a fail?  David Andolfatto is pointing out that bitcoin miners serve a more socially-useful purpose than gold miners: bitcoin miners process transactions and secure the ledger (in addition to finding new bitcoins), while gold miners just find new gold.  In other words, the resources spent mining bitcoin are a necessary evil while the resources spent mining gold aren't (because we don't need gold miners to find new gold in order for the "gold ledger" to remain secure and for gold to be useful as a medium of exchange).  

Gold mining is necessary as well. Without an ongoing completive effort at mining, there is no way to know that gold is really as scarce as we think it is.


That's an interesting perspective, Smooth.  With commodity money like gold, resources are consumed mining for more of it; indeed, it is the production that results from these efforts that signals the scarcity of the commodity to the market.  Bitcoin is fundamentally different because its supply is defined a priori at the protocol level; no resources need to be consumed to verify scarcity.  

I think I twisted the argument Andolfatto was making, and sort of made it wrong in the process.  But it is still true, at least when viewed through a certain lens, that gold mining is more wasteful than bitcoin mining.  

Consider the discussion earlier in this thread about extracting gold from the oceans.  If a breakthrough were to occur that enabled low-cost recovery of a portion of the millions of tons of dissolved gold, it would significantly depress gold's market price and distort the memory function of the "gold ledger" (the % of the total gold supply held by each individual would be distorted by this event).  It would also result in a huge amount of resources being directed at extracting gold from the ocean.  From the perspective of the economy as a whole, these resources would be wasted (it would have been better for the economy in aggregate had the ocean contained no additional gold).  In fact, the waste would be amplified due to the economic distortions caused by the subsequent (and unexpected) inflation.  But from the perspective of the individual sea-gold miner, it is in his best interest to consume resources to extract the gold...and so resources will be consumed nonetheless.

Gold is a "barbarous relic" partly because of this misalignment of incentives regarding gold mining and the unpredictability of new supply. With a system like bitcoin, the incentives of the miners are more strongly aligned with the incentives of the economic majority.  If a miner tries to produce more bitcoins than permitted, his blocks are simply ignored by the network.  

TL/DR: A monetary system based on bitcoin would be more efficient than one based on gold.  

Run Bitcoin Unlimited (www.bitcoinunlimited.info)
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November 28, 2014, 08:57:01 PM
 #18139

Perhaps but also in the larger trend collapsing faith in the paper markets. It is not the perceived value of the metal that is dropping but the perceived value of the paper contract. The fact that the backwardation exists is a sign that the holders of the metal don't trust the integrity of the futures.

this is what all the goldbugs want you to believe.

it was the paper market that allowed the elevation to today's values in the first place. 

it's over.
Could you please elaborate a bit on that?

Paper = more supply, how more supply can make prices higher?

leverage
Makes sense.
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November 28, 2014, 09:06:33 PM
 #18140

It would also result in a huge amount of resources being directed at extracting gold from the ocean.  From the perspective of the economy as a whole, these resources would be wasted (it would have been better for the economy in aggregate had the ocean contained no additional gold).

Maybe. As you say, "low cost" so it isn't clear the resources would be huge.

But ultimately, as with anything, its only "wasted" if there is a better alternative. If you are going to use gold as a form or money (or even merely store of value) than it is essential that trust be maintained by continually trying to break it. This is very similar in essential, underlying function to Bitcoin's PoW. You can't declare (by "fiat") that the oceans contain no gold or that asteroids contain no gold, or that Bitcoin miners will nicely and fairly take turns collecting the free coins that are being distributed.

But it is true that if there is something else that is more efficient as a store of value than gold (like say Bitcoin), then mining isn't necessary. Indeed if that happens the price of gold will plummet, and mining will essentially stop.

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