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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 2030619 times)
cypherdoc
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November 23, 2014, 08:42:37 PM
 #17981

Why is BTC no longer BTC if the PoW changes? Why are ASICs securing the blockchain? Anyone running the Bitcoin client can process transactions you don't specifically need an ASIC. Before and after all coins are minted people will fight over either the blocks or the transaction fees no matter which PoW scheme is used. If everyone would stop using their ASICs the difficulty would go down and people could process transactions with their GPU or even CPU.

ASIC are securing blockchains in order to mine coins.

Absent BTC's massive advantage in network security provided by ASICs, it becomes just another crypto, subject to much more feasible 51% attacks.

There is no silver to BTC, no copper, no aluminum.

There is only one.

That's for the market to decide, not silly greenhorn noobs like you.

If you had been around longer, you'd realize your argument is exactly the same as what the Buttcoiners say about BTC ('It's a ponzi casino funny Monopoly money scam and the US dollar will be king forever').

No these are simply the rules of economics and the network effect of money/value.

Money substitutes existed because of physical limitations of traditional money, amongst other things.

Digital money has none of these limitations. I'm sorry for you if after so many more years than me looking at and investing in Bitcoin you still have not come to that conclusion.

There absolutely needs to be one ledger to rule them all. One to be trusted.
.

Yes,  and that does not include SC's. At least how they're proposed.

Sidechains ledgers are derived from and can reconcile with the main ledger on the protocol level.

I thought we already agreed. They are different ledgers. Of course, 24 yo's can get dementia.
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brg444
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November 23, 2014, 08:48:28 PM
 #17982

Why is BTC no longer BTC if the PoW changes? Why are ASICs securing the blockchain? Anyone running the Bitcoin client can process transactions you don't specifically need an ASIC. Before and after all coins are minted people will fight over either the blocks or the transaction fees no matter which PoW scheme is used. If everyone would stop using their ASICs the difficulty would go down and people could process transactions with their GPU or even CPU.

ASIC are securing blockchains in order to mine coins.

Absent BTC's massive advantage in network security provided by ASICs, it becomes just another crypto, subject to much more feasible 51% attacks.

There is no silver to BTC, no copper, no aluminum.

There is only one.

That's for the market to decide, not silly greenhorn noobs like you.

If you had been around longer, you'd realize your argument is exactly the same as what the Buttcoiners say about BTC ('It's a ponzi casino funny Monopoly money scam and the US dollar will be king forever').

No these are simply the rules of economics and the network effect of money/value.

Money substitutes existed because of physical limitations of traditional money, amongst other things.

Digital money has none of these limitations. I'm sorry for you if after so many more years than me looking at and investing in Bitcoin you still have not come to that conclusion.

There absolutely needs to be one ledger to rule them all. One to be trusted.
.

Yes,  and that does not include SC's. At least how they're proposed.

Sidechains ledgers are derived from and can reconcile with the main ledger on the protocol level.

I thought we already agreed. They are different ledgers. Of course, 24 yo's can get dementia.

Different ledgers, whose units are derived and scarcity defined by Bitcoin. Sub-ledgers are an appropriate way to look at it. Or a tree of ledgers is another.

Either way, they use different models to "settle" with the mainchain and SPVP enables this "settlement" to be operated from within Bitcoin so that no external entities need to be trusted.

Bottom line is the 21,000,000 supply limit is respected and its distribution preserved so yes, sidechains can absolutely be apart of this one, main, ledger.

Note that the chains are below this new Merkle Tree.  That is, each of Bitcoin and BitDNS have their own chain links inside their blocks.  This is inverted from the common timestamp server arrangement, where the chain is on top and then the Merkle Tree, because that creates one common master chain.  This is two timestamp servers not sharing a chain

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
cypherdoc
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November 23, 2014, 08:55:19 PM
 #17983

"trees"? 

Well, if you can't beat 'em, join 'em. You go Peter Todd.

Spvp intra protocol enabled speculation. "tons"of it, I believe you said.  That's just great. Just what a sound money needs to destroy itself.

 You know, I'm just trying to keep the Blockstream investors from losing their shirts.
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November 23, 2014, 09:04:47 PM
Last edit: November 23, 2014, 09:55:07 PM by brg444
 #17984

"trees"?  

Well, if you can't beat 'em, join 'em. You go Peter Todd.

Spvp intra protocol enabled speculation. "tons"of it, I believe you said.  That's just great. Just what a sound money needs to destroy itself.

 You know, I'm just trying to keep the Blockstream investors from losing their shirts.

Note that the chains are below this new Merkle Tree.  That is, each of Bitcoin and BitDNS have their own chain links inside their blocks.  This is inverted from the common timestamp server arrangement, where the chain is on top and then the Merkle Tree, because that creates one common master chain.  This is two timestamp servers not sharing a chain

If you only trust satoshi then maybe his explanation can help your poor cause.

Twisting my words to fit your schizo-logic is not.

SPVP enables intra protocol "settlement" (proof verification). Not speculation. Speculation using assets issued from units on the blockchain will be implemented one way or another. SPVP does not help their propagation considering few, if any, of these "speculative" sidechains will command enough adoption of secure required MM.

Quote
As for you what you have yet to figure out it seems is that there are a uses for sidechains beyond tying them to speculative assets. Like, tons of them.

That was the context for "tons of it" you illiterate liar.


"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
marcus_of_augustus
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November 23, 2014, 09:36:15 PM
 #17985

Thoughts can be evil, they should ban all thinking.

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November 23, 2014, 10:18:09 PM
 #17986

Splitting the currency unit from the blockchain? Who's lame brain idea is that anyways?
Odalv
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November 23, 2014, 10:29:58 PM
 #17987

Splitting the currency unit from the blockchain? Who's lame brain idea is that anyways?

1. It is crystal clear that you will not stop Blockstream devs from implementing SPV proof.
2. I'm quite sure that OP_SIDECHAINVERIFY will be accepted by majority of miners very very fast. -> they have no problem to take fees in BTC verifying side chain data.
3. I want to ask you -> what will you do then ?
cypherdoc
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November 23, 2014, 10:33:18 PM
 #17988

Splitting the currency unit from the blockchain? Who's lame brain idea is that anyways?

1. It is crystal clear that you will not stop Blockstream devs from implementing SPV proof.
2. I'm quite sure that OP_SIDECHAINVERIFY will be accepted by majority of miners very very fast. -> they have no problem to take fees in BTC verifying side chain data.
3. I want to ask you -> what will you do then ?

does it matter?
cypherdoc
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November 23, 2014, 10:37:18 PM
 #17989

Splitting the currency unit from the blockchain? Who's lame brain idea is that anyways?

1. It is crystal clear that you will not stop Blockstream devs from implementing SPV proof.
2. I'm quite sure that OP_SIDECHAINVERIFY will be accepted by majority of miners very very fast. -> they have no problem to take fees in BTC verifying side chain data.
3. I want to ask you -> what will you do then ?

btw, how do you "know" these things?
Odalv
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November 23, 2014, 10:38:08 PM
 #17990

Splitting the currency unit from the blockchain? Who's lame brain idea is that anyways?

1. It is crystal clear that you will not stop Blockstream devs from implementing SPV proof.
2. I'm quite sure that OP_SIDECHAINVERIFY will be accepted by majority of miners very very fast. -> they have no problem to take fees in BTC verifying side chain data.
3. I want to ask you -> what will you do then ?

does it matter?

I am curious. Maybe you are just paid by Blockstream to use inverted psychology and you are only advertising SC.

Is this your real intentions ? (advertise and adopt SC ?)
Odalv
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November 23, 2014, 10:40:01 PM
 #17991

Splitting the currency unit from the blockchain? Who's lame brain idea is that anyways?

1. It is crystal clear that you will not stop Blockstream devs from implementing SPV proof.
2. I'm quite sure that OP_SIDECHAINVERIFY will be accepted by majority of miners very very fast. -> they have no problem to take fees in BTC verifying side chain data.
3. I want to ask you -> what will you do then ?

btw, how do you "know" these things?

1. it is obvious
2. it is my expectation
3. it is my question :-)
cypherdoc
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November 23, 2014, 10:50:54 PM
 #17992

Splitting the currency unit from the blockchain? Who's lame brain idea is that anyways?

1. It is crystal clear that you will not stop Blockstream devs from implementing SPV proof.
2. I'm quite sure that OP_SIDECHAINVERIFY will be accepted by majority of miners very very fast. -> they have no problem to take fees in BTC verifying side chain data.
3. I want to ask you -> what will you do then ?

does it matter?

I am curious. Maybe you are just paid by Blockstream to use inverted psychology and you are only advertising SC.

Is this your real intentions ? (advertise and adopt SC ?)

there would have to be a much easier to do that if true.

given all my arguments, it is quite clear what my concerns are and that i think SC's are a bad idea.
Odalv
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November 23, 2014, 10:54:57 PM
 #17993

Splitting the currency unit from the blockchain? Who's lame brain idea is that anyways?

1. It is crystal clear that you will not stop Blockstream devs from implementing SPV proof.
2. I'm quite sure that OP_SIDECHAINVERIFY will be accepted by majority of miners very very fast. -> they have no problem to take fees in BTC verifying side chain data.
3. I want to ask you -> what will you do then ?

does it matter?

I am curious. Maybe you are just paid by Blockstream to use inverted psychology and you are only advertising SC.

Is this your real intentions ? (advertise and adopt SC ?)

there would have to be a much easier to do that if true.

given all my arguments, it is quite clear what my concerns are and that i think SC's are a bad idea.

so what will you do in this case Huh (it is 1 of N possible cases)
1. Blockstream devs will implement SPV proof.
2. OP_SIDECHAINPROOFVERIFY will be accepted by majority of miners very fast. (let's say it will take 1 month)
cypherdoc
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November 23, 2014, 10:59:15 PM
 #17994

Splitting the currency unit from the blockchain? Who's lame brain idea is that anyways?

1. It is crystal clear that you will not stop Blockstream devs from implementing SPV proof.
2. I'm quite sure that OP_SIDECHAINVERIFY will be accepted by majority of miners very very fast. -> they have no problem to take fees in BTC verifying side chain data.
3. I want to ask you -> what will you do then ?

does it matter?

I am curious. Maybe you are just paid by Blockstream to use inverted psychology and you are only advertising SC.

Is this your real intentions ? (advertise and adopt SC ?)

there would have to be a much easier to do that if true.

given all my arguments, it is quite clear what my concerns are and that i think SC's are a bad idea.

so what will you do in this case Huh (it is 1 of N possible cases)
1. Blockstream devs will implement SPV proof.
2. OP_SIDECHAINPROOFVERIFY will be accepted by majority of miners very fast. (let's say it will take 1 month)


the spvp is no where near being implemented.  much work needs to be done, afaik.

btw, i asked you before but never got an answer.  what mathematical proof is being used for the 2wp with all these federated servers you're claiming are in use?
Odalv
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November 23, 2014, 11:08:21 PM
 #17995

Splitting the currency unit from the blockchain? Who's lame brain idea is that anyways?

1. It is crystal clear that you will not stop Blockstream devs from implementing SPV proof.
2. I'm quite sure that OP_SIDECHAINVERIFY will be accepted by majority of miners very very fast. -> they have no problem to take fees in BTC verifying side chain data.
3. I want to ask you -> what will you do then ?

does it matter?

I am curious. Maybe you are just paid by Blockstream to use inverted psychology and you are only advertising SC.

Is this your real intentions ? (advertise and adopt SC ?)

there would have to be a much easier to do that if true.

given all my arguments, it is quite clear what my concerns are and that i think SC's are a bad idea.

so what will you do in this case Huh (it is 1 of N possible cases)
1. Blockstream devs will implement SPV proof.
2. OP_SIDECHAINPROOFVERIFY will be accepted by majority of miners very fast. (let's say it will take 1 month)


the spvp is no where near being implemented.  much work needs to be done, afaik.

btw, i asked you before but never got an answer.  what mathematical proof is being used for the 2wp with all these federated servers you're claiming are in use?

Federated servers use multisig (bitcoin already support multisig). One server(one owner) has one signature. You choose how much server do you trust N and how many of them have to sign M.  => M of N  ( eq. 3 of 5 )

can you answer now ? "what will you do then ? "
cypherdoc
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November 23, 2014, 11:10:44 PM
 #17996

Splitting the currency unit from the blockchain? Who's lame brain idea is that anyways?

1. It is crystal clear that you will not stop Blockstream devs from implementing SPV proof.
2. I'm quite sure that OP_SIDECHAINVERIFY will be accepted by majority of miners very very fast. -> they have no problem to take fees in BTC verifying side chain data.
3. I want to ask you -> what will you do then ?

does it matter?

I am curious. Maybe you are just paid by Blockstream to use inverted psychology and you are only advertising SC.

Is this your real intentions ? (advertise and adopt SC ?)

there would have to be a much easier to do that if true.

given all my arguments, it is quite clear what my concerns are and that i think SC's are a bad idea.

so what will you do in this case Huh (it is 1 of N possible cases)
1. Blockstream devs will implement SPV proof.
2. OP_SIDECHAINPROOFVERIFY will be accepted by majority of miners very fast. (let's say it will take 1 month)


the spvp is no where near being implemented.  much work needs to be done, afaik.

btw, i asked you before but never got an answer.  what mathematical proof is being used for the 2wp with all these federated servers you're claiming are in use?

Federated servers use multisig (bitcoin already support multisig). One server(one owner) has one signature. You choose how much server do you trust N and how many of them have to sign M.  => M of N  ( eq. 3 of 5 )

can you answer now ? "what will you do then ? "

ah, that's interesting.

it doesn't matter what i do.  i'm irrelevant, remember?
BlindMayorBitcorn
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November 23, 2014, 11:13:21 PM
Last edit: November 23, 2014, 11:27:10 PM by BlindMayorBitcorn
 #17997

I keep clicking on your thread thinking it's my thread Grin


Forgive my petulance and oft-times, I fear, ill-founded criticisms, and forgive me that I have, by this time, made your eyes and head ache with my long letter. But I cannot forgo hastily the pleasure and pride of thus conversing with you.
Odalv
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November 23, 2014, 11:19:47 PM
 #17998

Splitting the currency unit from the blockchain? Who's lame brain idea is that anyways?

1. It is crystal clear that you will not stop Blockstream devs from implementing SPV proof.
2. I'm quite sure that OP_SIDECHAINVERIFY will be accepted by majority of miners very very fast. -> they have no problem to take fees in BTC verifying side chain data.
3. I want to ask you -> what will you do then ?

does it matter?

I am curious. Maybe you are just paid by Blockstream to use inverted psychology and you are only advertising SC.

Is this your real intentions ? (advertise and adopt SC ?)

there would have to be a much easier to do that if true.

given all my arguments, it is quite clear what my concerns are and that i think SC's are a bad idea.

so what will you do in this case Huh (it is 1 of N possible cases)
1. Blockstream devs will implement SPV proof.
2. OP_SIDECHAINPROOFVERIFY will be accepted by majority of miners very fast. (let's say it will take 1 month)


the spvp is no where near being implemented.  much work needs to be done, afaik.

btw, i asked you before but never got an answer.  what mathematical proof is being used for the 2wp with all these federated servers you're claiming are in use?

Federated servers use multisig (bitcoin already support multisig). One server(one owner) has one signature. You choose how much server do you trust N and how many of them have to sign M.  => M of N  ( eq. 3 of 5 )

can you answer now ? "what will you do then ? "

ah, that's interesting.

it doesn't matter what i do.  i'm irrelevant, remember?

You have the rights
a) do not use it
b) troll at bitcointalk
c) ... 1 million other options :-)  .. and that is my question "what will you do then ? "
tabnloz
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November 24, 2014, 04:28:18 AM
 #17999

Following on from yesterday re: CB's, currency, govt etc. Here is head of Russia's CB (and Putins former economics advisor) announcing to Russian parliament that they have purchased 150 tons of gold.

Quote form article:

This announcement is unusual and to our knowledge has not happened before. The announcement by the Russian central bank governor was likely coordinated with Putin and the Kremlin and designed to signal how Russia views their gold reserves as a potential geopolitical and indeed financial and currency war weapon.

https://www.linkedin.com/today/post/article/20141119160332-16388259-gold-rises-after-unusual-russian-gold-buying-announcement

The old school still view the world through this gold prism. Lets hope through necessity Bitcoin changes that
Melbustus
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November 24, 2014, 05:47:43 AM
 #18000

...
The old school still view the world through this gold prism.
...


Yeah, that can probably go on for a few more decades. The youngest people who remember dollars as being tied to gold in their everyday life are probably in their 50-60s now. So another 20-30 years before those who viscerally internalize gold as money no longer run humanity to any meaningful degree. So the question for the next 20-30 years is: will economic rationality win out, or will those visceral childhood associations, and the power wielded by those who have them, be enough for a monetary resurgence of gold? I think it's a coin toss (and not a gold coin; too heavy).

Kinda doesn't matter, though, in the bitcoin vs gold discussion. Upside potential for bitcoin is considerably larger, with, in my opinion, greater probability of hitting the success case. The only spot where gold shines is if you want to be certain that your holding won't go to zero in the next 20-30 years (could still go -80%, though).

Bitcoin is the first monetary system to credibly offer perfect information to all economic participants.
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