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Question: Will you support Gavin's new block size limit hard fork of 8MB by January 1, 2016 then doubling every 2 years?
1.  yes
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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 2010226 times)
cypherdoc
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December 02, 2014, 08:14:19 PM
 #18261

this is big:

Online Poker: PokerStars and rumors about Bitcoin

https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pokerfirma.com%2Fnews%2Fpokerstars-bitcoin-poker%2F274522&edit-text=&act=url
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December 02, 2014, 08:32:20 PM
 #18262


:-)  PokerStars can be built as SC(managed by bitcoin protocol) so we can audit it and enforce btc payments.

Edit:
PokerStars will be SC. And it can be SC managed by bitcoin protocol.
Erdogan
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December 02, 2014, 08:39:54 PM
 #18263

Yes but there are still advantages to decentralizing the transaction even if redemption must be centralized, because redemption happens rarely.  Also,  if stocks, bonds or mortgages are directly offered on the blockchain (as opposed to representing certificates stored in a vault) they simultaneously represent something but also are themselves property.

I agree that decentralizing the transactions of stocks, bonds and mortgages may have advantages.   I guess I'm just slightly annoyed by the meme that "currency is only the first app of blockchain technology."  What needs to eventually be understood by the media is that:

(1) Currency is the foundational application of blockchain technology; without a valuable currency, no other apps are possible.
(2) The native blockchain units (bitcoins) are the only asset with no counterparty risk.


Many people have a problem conceptually separating the need to trust a counterparty to fulfill a contract, and the need to trust a ledger system to accurately record ownership information.

It's possible to make the latter arbitrarily small, but there's no technological solution to the former as it's inherent to the problem space.

Yes, well said.  We need to stress the distinction between trust of the ledger system and trust of the counterparty (and then point out that bitcoin is fundamentally different as it has no counterparty [or perhaps the counterparty is the ledger system itself]).  

Justus, I see you're giving a talk via telepresence in Vancouver on Thursday.  What will you be speaking about?



Other uses of blockchain technology (and not the bitcoin blockchain, it is easy to construct blockchains with less security) is where the good is only information, for example the right to access a theater (a ticket). You can show up at the entrance with a ticket "coin" (a better word needs to be invented) and send the ticket to the ticket office for admission. It could be done with an association of theaters where each theater runs a miner, and no block reward is necessary.


brg444
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December 02, 2014, 08:42:26 PM
 #18264

Yes but there are still advantages to decentralizing the transaction even if redemption must be centralized, because redemption happens rarely.  Also,  if stocks, bonds or mortgages are directly offered on the blockchain (as opposed to representing certificates stored in a vault) they simultaneously represent something but also are themselves property.

I agree that decentralizing the transactions of stocks, bonds and mortgages may have advantages.   I guess I'm just slightly annoyed by the meme that "currency is only the first app of blockchain technology."  What needs to eventually be understood by the media is that:

(1) Currency is the foundational application of blockchain technology; without a valuable currency, no other apps are possible.
(2) The native blockchain units (bitcoins) are the only asset with no counterparty risk.


Many people have a problem conceptually separating the need to trust a counterparty to fulfill a contract, and the need to trust a ledger system to accurately record ownership information.

It's possible to make the latter arbitrarily small, but there's no technological solution to the former as it's inherent to the problem space.

Yes, well said.  We need to stress the distinction between trust of the ledger system and trust of the counterparty (and then point out that bitcoin is fundamentally different as it has no counterparty [or perhaps the counterparty is the ledger system itself]).  

Justus, I see you're giving a talk via telepresence in Vancouver on Thursday.  What will you be speaking about?



Other uses of blockchain technology (and not the bitcoin blockchain, it is easy to construct blockchains with less security) is where the good is only information, for example the right to access a theater (a ticket). You can show up at the entrance with a ticket "coin" (a better word needs to be invented) and send the ticket to the ticket office for admission. It could be done with an association of theaters where each theater runs a miner, and no block reward is necessary.

I fail to see why you would need a blockchain for that though... Any centralized server model could do.

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
Erdogan
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December 02, 2014, 08:46:30 PM
 #18265

Yes but there are still advantages to decentralizing the transaction even if redemption must be centralized, because redemption happens rarely.  Also,  if stocks, bonds or mortgages are directly offered on the blockchain (as opposed to representing certificates stored in a vault) they simultaneously represent something but also are themselves property.

I agree that decentralizing the transactions of stocks, bonds and mortgages may have advantages.   I guess I'm just slightly annoyed by the meme that "currency is only the first app of blockchain technology."  What needs to eventually be understood by the media is that:

(1) Currency is the foundational application of blockchain technology; without a valuable currency, no other apps are possible.
(2) The native blockchain units (bitcoins) are the only asset with no counterparty risk.


Many people have a problem conceptually separating the need to trust a counterparty to fulfill a contract, and the need to trust a ledger system to accurately record ownership information.

It's possible to make the latter arbitrarily small, but there's no technological solution to the former as it's inherent to the problem space.

Yes, well said.  We need to stress the distinction between trust of the ledger system and trust of the counterparty (and then point out that bitcoin is fundamentally different as it has no counterparty [or perhaps the counterparty is the ledger system itself]).  

Justus, I see you're giving a talk via telepresence in Vancouver on Thursday.  What will you be speaking about?



Other uses of blockchain technology (and not the bitcoin blockchain, it is easy to construct blockchains with less security) is where the good is only information, for example the right to access a theater (a ticket). You can show up at the entrance with a ticket "coin" (a better word needs to be invented) and send the ticket to the ticket office for admission. It could be done with an association of theaters where each theater runs a miner, and no block reward is necessary.

I fail to see why you would need a blockchain for that though... Any centralized server model could do.

That is what we have, but this one would have tickets which are transferable, and the uptime of a distributed system. Ticket sale could therefore be distributed without the need for agreement for the distributor (he just buys tickets and resell them).


Melbustus
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December 02, 2014, 08:49:51 PM
 #18266



English only, at the tables, please!
(Translate not working, and all I can find in English is: http://gamblingcompliance.com/premium-content/news_analysis/bitcoin-push-gathers-strength-pokerstars-interested)

Anyway, Bitcoin has been an obvious fit for the poker-world for years. That was one of my first thoughts in 2011. Especially after Black Friday, but even before, dealing with sketchy fiat intermediaries to fund/withdraw-from poker sites was always awful for people.

Furthermore, if PokerStars integrated bitcoin, it would be a hopefully-fatal blow to this nonsense: http://www.coindesk.com/stakes-high-star-backed-bitcoin-gambling-site-crowdsale-stumbles/ Brocoin....wtf.

Bitcoin is the first monetary system to credibly offer perfect information to all economic participants.
Cryptoasset rankings and metrics for investors: http://onchainfx.com
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December 02, 2014, 09:10:06 PM
 #18267

Does it go unnoticed that executives from Citibank can't seem to stop talking about Bitcoin?  Why would they bother if they really believe it has no future?   Wink

http://www.coindesk.com/citi-ross-ulbricht-bitcoins-likely-sell-discount-usms-auction/

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December 02, 2014, 09:12:51 PM
 #18268

Does it go unnoticed that executives from Citibank can't seem to stop talking about Bitcoin?  Why would they bother if they really believe it has no future?   Wink

http://www.coindesk.com/citi-ross-ulbricht-bitcoins-likely-sell-discount-usms-auction/



Then they fight you.

They've been at it for a while. When do we win again?

conspirosphere.tk
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December 02, 2014, 09:19:29 PM
 #18269

what do you guys think of https://www.digitaltangibletrust.com ?
Anyone using it?
If btc rises much before pm I am tempted to use it.
brg444
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December 02, 2014, 09:25:26 PM
 #18270

what do you guys think of https://www.digitaltangibletrust.com ?
Anyone using it?
If btc rises much before pm I am tempted to use it.

Quote
Place your gold or silver in secured and bonded custody to receive your digital tokens.

This looks no better than paper gold.

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
Erdogan
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December 02, 2014, 09:33:10 PM
 #18271

Does it go unnoticed that executives from Citibank can't seem to stop talking about Bitcoin?  Why would they bother if they really believe it has no future?   Wink

http://www.coindesk.com/citi-ross-ulbricht-bitcoins-likely-sell-discount-usms-auction/


It is a bit like kids and horror stories. Frightening, but titillating.

conspirosphere.tk
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December 02, 2014, 09:35:42 PM
 #18272

what do you guys think of https://www.digitaltangibletrust.com ?
Anyone using it?
If btc rises much before pm I am tempted to use it.

Quote
Place your gold or silver in secured and bonded custody to receive your digital tokens.

This looks no better than paper gold.

yes but it seems somewhat more transparent and decentralized.
It could be a good compromise for who wants to trade frequently and stay liquid if it works.

Of course who wants to hodl forever does not need it.
brg444
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December 02, 2014, 09:43:09 PM
 #18273

what do you guys think of https://www.digitaltangibletrust.com ?
Anyone using it?
If btc rises much before pm I am tempted to use it.

Quote
Place your gold or silver in secured and bonded custody to receive your digital tokens.

This looks no better than paper gold.

yes but it seems somewhat more transparent and decentralized.
It could be a good compromise for who wants to trade frequently and stay liquidity if it works.

Of course who wants to hodl forever does not need it.

Decentralized?

The gold is sitting in one vault.

It's funny, that's exactly what we've been discussing for the last couple pages

Like you pointed out, there's a fundamental difference between the transfer of a bitcoin, and the transfer of a token that represents a claim on some external-to-the-blockchain property.  In the latter case (asset-backed tokens), all that is transferred is ownership (and ownership is really a social construct, valuable only to the extent that one's society is willing to enforce property rights [as control of the property in question remains a physical problem]).  In the former case (bitcoin), what's transferred is control itself.

Yes the token system is decentralized but the asset(gold) is not. It is still very much controlled by a third-party and no more transparent then regular paper gold schemes

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
cypherdoc
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December 02, 2014, 09:58:22 PM
 #18274

this sounds pretty amazing.  anyone see any holes?

http://blog.choosecase.com/
cypherdoc
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December 02, 2014, 10:04:40 PM
 #18275

i'm gonna argue how nicely mining is decentralizing based on this recent chart.  the nice Nash Equilibrium is equilibrating nicely.  the biggest growth is in the smaller pools:

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December 02, 2014, 10:09:19 PM
 #18276

i'm also going to claim that it's being driven by the commoditization of hardware as indicated by the leveling off of the hashrate.  prices have plunged 10-fold allowing more and more smaller pools into the game.  this was predicted here long ago:



furthermore, now that money has appeared to slow to a crawl into the mining "bucket", i think it's now time for that money to flow into the BTC price "bucket".  so hold on.

http://www.coindesk.com/btc-chinas-new-pool-mines-3325-btc-five-weeks/
brg444
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December 02, 2014, 10:13:01 PM
 #18277

this sounds pretty amazing.  anyone see any holes?

http://blog.choosecase.com/

Yeah I'm impressed, plus the founder is super hot.  Grin

Hole #1 : no working unit yet. still a prototype so let's see

I'm also curious about how the entropy and how they generate randomness. Even though I own a trezor I'm always kind of on the fence about using third-party hardware to generate my private key.

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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December 02, 2014, 10:13:07 PM
 #18278

oh Lordy.  from our favorite Bitcoin economist  Roll Eyes

https://twitter.com/TheScottRob/status/539895264807378945

he's been crying about this for years.
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December 02, 2014, 10:13:20 PM
 #18279

for those assets, what are the advantages of decentralization?
Lots of advantages in reliability and assurances.  More fundamentally it obsoletes some functions of auditing and government along with the associated costs to society.
It automates many of the administrivia of corporation management.

If you have ever run a public company, the advantages are more immediately apparent.

the pt that i was getting at is that until Bitcoin fulfills Satoshi's visions as a generally accepted and large enough form of currency or money, there will be no such trust or confidence given by the masses or larger financial institutions to embed asset derivatives into the blockchain as the "legal" ledger.

what will drive Bitcoins growth is a maintenance of its Sound Money function along with transactional growth which we are fortunately beginning to see w/o a doubt.  once it becomes a generally accepted global and apolitical public good as money, then it might be used to embed more riskier assets within the blockchain as with CP.

otoh, the blockchain may only ever be applicable to Bitcoin as Money.  in which case, all those speculative assets may just be bought and sold with BTC as they will become denominated as such with the records continuing to be maintained by those organizations responsible for enforcing those contracts.

if we use Bitcoin to win the Money Game, we win Everything.  that is where the problem lies.

Yes Yes...
This is why I would like to see SPV side chains implemented on some altcoins.  
In matters such as these, it is not as important to see how things work, as it is to see how they fail and under what circumstances.

FREE MONEY1 Bitcoin for Silver and Gold NewLibertyDollar.com and now BITCOIN SPECIE (silver 1 ozt) shows value by QR
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December 02, 2014, 10:13:58 PM
 #18280

i'm also going to claim that it's being driven by the commoditization of hardware as indicated by the leveling off of the hashrate.  prices have plunged 10-fold allowing more and more smaller pools into the game.  this was predicted here long ago:

The leveling off of the hash rate is almost certainly due to the 70% drop in price. You had huge investment pouring into mining, now you don't. What new gear is going into service is being balanced out by older unprofitable gear coming out of service.

That may in turn have some effect on pool concentration, but the effect is not clear to me, other than the obvious of say ghash not spending a lot on expanding the in house cloud mining right now.

I agree with Greg Maxwell as quoted in that tweet. The issues of mining decentralization have not been solved, as far as I can tell. I don't understand what you are talking about in terms of nash equilibrium so maybe you could expand on that so I can learn something.

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