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Question: Will you support Gavin's new block size limit hard fork of 8MB by January 1, 2016 then doubling every 2 years?
1.  yes
2.  no

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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 1981348 times)
cypherdoc
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December 31, 2014, 08:19:24 PM
 #19221

Oh great, incendiary loud mouth brg444  back in the mix. Just when I thought we had a proper chance of a decent discussion to get going.

There is no such chance with you in the mix.

You have refused or flat out ignored the most logic counter-arguments to your "concerns" and prefer dancing around spewing the same platitudes. It's like groundhog day with you.

If the best way to deal with a troll is to ignore him, then why don't you leave, especially  since I'm the one doing most of the talking around here? Or maybe it's because you find what I have to say not all together unreasonable?  

Not quite, your thread is merely just one other source of information and sometimes valuable discussion. I certainly would not qualify your opinion as particularly insightful or worthy of merits. You are anything but "reasonable".

Case in point Adam, in the few last post of his has provided more insights and valuable discussion material than certainly your few last thousands post on here.

Blah, blah, blah.

Not in my opinion. As JR said, there's nothing new in what he said. Just his opinions as to where the project stands, that Bitcoin has a "problem ",  and that we should "trust"  him. 

And neither you, nor Adam, had provided a good reason add to why we should up end 6 years of a " no trust" system just to let them establish a $21M for profit entity that seeks to leverage core development to change Bitcoin into their vision while profiting. The core devs refusal to step down speaks volumes and I think Reid Hoffman, et al, would never have plunked down that amount of money if they didn't think it would make a difference.

No trust? You trust Gavin & the Bitcoin Foundation. You trust Jeff Garzik & Bitpay. You trust the miners.

The mere notion you are pushing forward that the addition of op_code to bitcoin core translates into you & everyone having to trust Blockstream for all things Bitcoin is so spectacularly stupid I don't know where to begin.

Add to that the fact that you are parading the $21 SEED investment as the "smoking gun" of conflicted interests and ill-intentions when that amount is literally pocket change to the nearly 40 investors involved. As if these guys are hell-bent on getting a 10x return on their seed-round investement. This is a grave misunderstanding of the business venture capitalists are in.



We've already gone over this with your poor memory. Gavin works for a  non profit and gets paid modestly I'd  bet.  Certainly not the $500k Adam was throwing around earlier (which makes me wonder what Blockstream is paying their core devs). He has no stock or investors to please. Jeff is a lone wolf over at Bitpay. Yeah, big difference is say with Blockstream having 2 core devs plus 3 top committers.

As for the $21M seed, what's your point? How old are you?

You really should stop. Adam and the rest of us were having a decent conversation and now you're going to scare him away.
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brg444
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December 31, 2014, 08:30:38 PM
 #19222

Oh great, incendiary loud mouth brg444  back in the mix. Just when I thought we had a proper chance of a decent discussion to get going.

There is no such chance with you in the mix.

You have refused or flat out ignored the most logic counter-arguments to your "concerns" and prefer dancing around spewing the same platitudes. It's like groundhog day with you.

If the best way to deal with a troll is to ignore him, then why don't you leave, especially  since I'm the one doing most of the talking around here? Or maybe it's because you find what I have to say not all together unreasonable?  

Not quite, your thread is merely just one other source of information and sometimes valuable discussion. I certainly would not qualify your opinion as particularly insightful or worthy of merits. You are anything but "reasonable".

Case in point Adam, in the few last post of his has provided more insights and valuable discussion material than certainly your few last thousands post on here.

Blah, blah, blah.

Not in my opinion. As JR said, there's nothing new in what he said. Just his opinions as to where the project stands, that Bitcoin has a "problem ",  and that we should "trust"  him.  

And neither you, nor Adam, had provided a good reason add to why we should up end 6 years of a " no trust" system just to let them establish a $21M for profit entity that seeks to leverage core development to change Bitcoin into their vision while profiting. The core devs refusal to step down speaks volumes and I think Reid Hoffman, et al, would never have plunked down that amount of money if they didn't think it would make a difference.

No trust? You trust Gavin & the Bitcoin Foundation. You trust Jeff Garzik & Bitpay. You trust the miners.

The mere notion you are pushing forward that the addition of op_code to bitcoin core translates into you & everyone having to trust Blockstream for all things Bitcoin is so spectacularly stupid I don't know where to begin.

Add to that the fact that you are parading the $21 SEED investment as the "smoking gun" of conflicted interests and ill-intentions when that amount is literally pocket change to the nearly 40 investors involved. As if these guys are hell-bent on getting a 10x return on their seed-round investement. This is a grave misunderstanding of the business venture capitalists are in.



We've already gone over this with your poor memory. Gavin works for a  non profit and gets paid modestly I'd  bet.  Certainly not the $500k Adam was throwing around earlier (which makes me wonder what Blockstream is paying their core devs). He has no stock or investors to please. Jeff is a lone wolf over at Bitpay. Yeah, big difference is say with Blockstream having 2 core devs plus 3 top committers.

As for the $21M seed, what's your point? How old are you?

You really should stop. Adam and the rest of us were having a decent conversation and now you're going to scare him away.

I believe tvbcof has adressed why any reference to the Bitcoin Foundation as a non-profit devoid of any individuals with selfish interest is naive & misguided. Gavin might have no stock holders or investors to please but he has a gang of, some quite influential shall I say, foundation members paying his salary.

The fact that Jeff is a "lone wolf" does not shield him from potential conflicts of interest. That's quite a poor "excuse" if I might say.

The point about the investment is both parties (Blockstream & investors) have made it quite clear that the reason for the existence of Blockstream first and foremost is to promote & improve the Bitcoin ecosystem as a public good. That is what the funds will be used for. I'm quite certain no one in there is expecting or even demanding 10x return on their investment. At least not in the immediate future.



"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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December 31, 2014, 08:32:31 PM
 #19223

Gavin works for a  non profit and gets paid modestly I'd  bet.  Certainly not the $500k Adam was throwing around earlier

$209K in 2013 according to http://www.technologyreview.com/featuredstory/527051/the-man-who-really-built-bitcoin
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December 31, 2014, 08:40:06 PM
 #19224



The point about the investment is both parties (Blockstream & investors) have made it quite clear that the reason for the existence of Blockstream first and foremost is to promote & improve the Bitcoin ecosystem as a public good.




Oh come on man. Even you're smart enough to know we,  as a  community,  should not buy into that sort of promise. History is littered with failed projects that were based on such naivete.  
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December 31, 2014, 08:42:58 PM
 #19225

You really should stop. Adam and the rest of us were having a decent conversation and now you're going to scare him away.

Strange, it seems to me Adam has made quite a case that characters the likes of yours are the reason he stays away from here.

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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December 31, 2014, 08:57:08 PM
 #19226



The point about the investment is both parties (Blockstream & investors) have made it quite clear that the reason for the existence of Blockstream first and foremost is to promote & improve the Bitcoin ecosystem as a public good.




Oh come on man. Even you're smart enough to know we,  as a  community,  should not buy into that sort of promise. History is littered with failed projects that were based on such naivete.  

That's the problem. Whatever they will say you will attach ill intentions to them.

Excercising common sense & being cautious is one thing. Clouding your judgement with personal grudges and ill-informed opinions is another.

The model they are working from (Mozilla Foundation) is an excellent example of such projects that has succeeded. Given the backing they've received, the mindshare & the resources available to them my bet is the Blockstream venture will be a success as well.

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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December 31, 2014, 09:01:17 PM
 #19227

You really should stop. Adam and the rest of us were having a decent conversation and now you're going to scare him away.

Strange, it seems to me Adam has made quite a case that characters the likes of yours are the reason he stays away from here.

Note to brg444:

He's here and been here for several days with over a dozen or so posts despite, and maybe because of me. Who knows. All I care about is that I'm learning his perspective and if more people convert to being SC proponents as a result, great. Who knows, I might be converted. There's a lot at stake here and you're not helping with your spamming.

Let's see how much he posts now that you're here. He's quite capable of schooling me on his own if what he says has merit. He doesn't need your help.
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December 31, 2014, 09:10:14 PM
 #19228

You really should stop. Adam and the rest of us were having a decent conversation and now you're going to scare him away.

Strange, it seems to me Adam has made quite a case that characters the likes of yours are the reason he stays away from here.

Note to brg444:

He's here and been here for several days with over a dozen or so posts despite, and maybe because of me. Who knows. All I care about is that I'm learning his perspective and if more people convert to being SC proponents as a result, great. Who knows, I might be converted. There's a lot at stake here and you're not helping with your spamming.

Let's see how much he posts now that you're here. He's quite capable of schooling me on his own if what he says has merit. He doesn't need your help.

Spamming?

I am merely attempting to correct some misconceived opinions. If you've read Adam's post it is apparent he doesn't quite hold you in high-esteem. I'm certain you could careless because you're cypherdoc and you're so awesome, found Bitcoin and understood it as sound money in 2011, etc, etc. but that's beside the point.

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and maybe because of me.

there's that ego again  Cheesy

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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December 31, 2014, 09:15:53 PM
 #19229

Spamming?

I agree with CD, although the term spamming isn't really the right one.

Your volume of posts on the thread is too high and content per post is too low.

Nobody appointed you truth police to refute each individual cyperdoc post you disagree with, even when you have nothing new to add.

It isn't about you being a side chain supporter either. There are other side chain supporters here who express the same views as you but do so while contributing a lot more value per post (Adam for example).

The thread was more compelling in your absence or relative absence. Please cool it.
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December 31, 2014, 09:18:07 PM
 #19230

You really should stop. Adam and the rest of us were having a decent conversation and now you're going to scare him away.

Strange, it seems to me Adam has made quite a case that characters the likes of yours are the reason he stays away from here.

Note to brg444:

He's here and been here for several days with over a dozen or so posts despite, and maybe because of me. Who knows. All I care about is that I'm learning his perspective and if more people convert to being SC proponents as a result, great. Who knows, I might be converted. There's a lot at stake here and you're not helping with your spamming.

Let's see how much he posts now that you're here. He's quite capable of schooling me on his own if what he says has merit. He doesn't need your help.

Spamming?

I am merely attempting to correct some misconceived opinions. If you've read Adam's post it is apparent he doesn't quite hold you in high-esteem. I'm certain you could careless because you're cypherdoc and you're so awesome, found Bitcoin and understood it as sound money in 2011, etc, etc. but that's beside the point.

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and maybe because of me.

there's that ego again  Cheesy

No, it's just that I recognize that he wouldn't be here were  it not for the fact that I have been one of the more vocal opponents of SC's as well as being an early adopter with a popular thread. 
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December 31, 2014, 09:24:03 PM
 #19231

How come the thread was locked a while ago?
brg444
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December 31, 2014, 09:27:50 PM
 #19232

Spamming?

I agree with CD, although the term spamming isn't really the right one.

Your volume of posts on the thread is too high and content per post is too low.

Nobody appointed you truth police to refute each individual cyperdoc post you disagree with, even when you have nothing new to add.

It isn't about you being a side chain supporter either. There are other side chain supporters here who express the same views as you but do so while contributing a lot more value per post (Adam for example).

The thread was more compelling in your absence or relative absence. Please cool it.

I'm sorry but there is a particular disingenuity in cypherdoc discourse that irritates & annoys me to the highest point.

Even though it is his own thread I don't believe it justifies or provide him with the right to promote slander, FUD or half-truths.

You accuse me of repeating the same content when cypherdoc has been parroting the same non-sense about sidechains & "sound money" anytime he gets the chance.

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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December 31, 2014, 09:31:25 PM
 #19233

You accuse me of repeating the same content when cypherdoc has been parroting the same non-sense about sidechains & "sound money" anytime he gets the chance.

Except that he also posts on a variety of other topics that add value. You don't.

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December 31, 2014, 09:34:53 PM
 #19234

I have some first hand knowledge that some companies are patenting things related to bitcoin, and probably much more I dont know about.

Thats another reason to want to be cautious about side chains and all this blossoming innovation. Every new improvement creates new openings for patents. If it is broken, then by all means fix it. But if it isn't broken, it might be best to leave well enough alone and let the patent clock on the existing methods run out.
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December 31, 2014, 10:17:00 PM
 #19235

short term Dow Theory non-confirmation right on time corresponding to a complex double bottom in Bitcoin after an overextended year long downturn.  i really like this setup:



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December 31, 2014, 10:32:19 PM
 #19236

if natural gas was supposed to be the new bull market in energy to replace that of oil, why is it plunging along with it?

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December 31, 2014, 10:34:35 PM
 #19237

with energy stocks hot on their heels to the downside:

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December 31, 2014, 10:38:58 PM
 #19238

creeping fear.  trendline holding:

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December 31, 2014, 10:47:41 PM
 #19239

[A majority cartel] can only force soft-forks, hard-forks are ignored by full-nodes and clients.  An attempted forced-hard fork results in hostile miners forming an alt-coin with no users.  The limiting factor is soft-forks are quite flexible and can do a lot, some of which could be undesirable.

Perhaps I did not explain myself clearly.  Here is a more detailed scenario:
http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2qdfat/without_downvoting_me_to_hell_can_someone_explain/cn5s41z

Is there anything wrong with that, technically or economically?

(Summary being from the reddit attack described at the above link that a miner with > 50% DoS's transactions on bitcoin chain (ie does not accept any transactions just mines empty blocks on the main chain people are trying to use) until people either abandon bitcoin or capitulate and adopt the rules the DoS miner is threatening.) 

Yeah that is kind of logical, there are some caveats.  The miner has a lot of capital invested maybe > $300m to do that now.  (You can be sure most pool miners would abandon a pool that did that.)  This is going to be disruptive to bitcoin confidence and price and that affects the value of bitcoins they are mining, or the equipment itself which is worthless if bitcoin fails or crashes badly as a result.  Dangerous game to play with a $300m good behaviour bond.  Secondly while they are DoSing bitcoin, they are not mining coins nor on their proposed alternative chain at any kind of usable speed as they have almost no hashpower left (if they have 55% and they're using 53% to DoS bitcoin that gives them 500min blocks if the new chain has the same difficulty.  If the new chain has reset difficulty the honest miners might DoS it in retaliation (block transactions there).  Now if the attacker had maybe 70% they could dominate both chains reliably.

This is beyond mining a new hard-fork protocol version (which honest users and full nodes would ignore) and more DoS warfare to kill the main chain to give users a choice of no transactions or to fold and use the new chain.  I would imagine users would be annoyed enough about that so as to be a scenario where the bit red button might get pushed - destroying the $300m capital of the attacker (and the $245m of the rest of the miners who probably are going to sue the attacker, and its not easy to hide the delivery and location of $300m worth of mining equipment drawing perhaps a GW of power.)

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Quote from: adam3us
the nuclear big-red-button [...] MAD argument that keeps miners somewhat sensible as if that button is pushed they are sitting on $500m of scrap electronics

[...] Putting it more simply: an entity that can jam some process for sufficiently long time can force the people who depend on that process to accept changes to it, as long as the changes are not as bad as the jamming itself.

Yep its a unfortunate.  This is why decentralisation of mining is important.

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Quote from: adam3us
Outside of spam limits which could be protocol enforced, its caveat emptor, you shouldnt put money into a chain unless there is some assurance that security & bitcoin protocol knowledgeable people have audited it.  

That is my understanding, and that is I why I cannot see any technical content in the sidechains proposal.  Unless it specifies some things that every sidechain must do (or must not do), with a mechanism to enforce those constraints, it will not bring any new tools or ideas to cryptocurrency technology.  So far it is only a nomenclature proposal: "let's use the word 'sidechain' for any project or entity that could 'own' some bitcoins for some time".

I dont think you cant really technically enforce freedom from security issues or freedom from bad economic parameter choices kind of stuff, thats probably AI / halting-problem type difficulty which we dont know how to do.  You could certainly make some best practices statement about how security should be achieved, and acceptable parameters and configurations for user safety, and have someone competent audit that and certify their audit.

Quote
Why wouldn't Bitstamp be already a sidechain, for example?

Well bitstamp isnt trying to algorithmically peg - they're saying trust our host security, cold wallet physical security, audit, governance / separation of duty etc.  Ie you are trusting humans to manage an IOU.  (Not saying bitstamp is a bad exchange).

Adam

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December 31, 2014, 10:51:31 PM
 #19240

I have some first hand knowledge that some companies are patenting things related to bitcoin, and probably much more I dont know about.

Thats another reason to want to be cautious about side chains and all this blossoming innovation. Every new improvement creates new openings for patents. If it is broken, then by all means fix it. But if it isn't broken, it might be best to leave well enough alone and let the patent clock on the existing methods run out.


Patent trolls dont feel the need to be concrete - there are patents on how to run a CPU on top of homomorphic encryption before there is usable performance FHE.

The world badly needs patent reform.  Ban patents, copyright cant be too soon IMO.

Adam

hashcash, committed transactions, homomorphic values, blind kdf; researching decentralization, scalability and fungibility/anonymity
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