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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 1805253 times)
adam3us
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January 04, 2015, 04:31:34 PM
 #19581

The point of moving transactions on-chain is that the user can then own their own coins, rather than delegating ownership to a third party like mtgox.

But each SC has its own spvp (single address)  that everyone has to move through to the SC? In other words,  everyone has to send their BTC to that address and then are somehow going to receive individually assigned scBTC on the other side?  

So the spv peg transactions (which anyone can create at any time) includes a list of addresses and amounts to emerge on the sidechain, so that could be one user, or a group of users each contributing inputs a bit like CoinJoin.  However its going to be more efficient to use an arbitrageur or cross-chain atomic swap for all but large liquidity calls if the trade gets imbalanced.

Adam

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January 04, 2015, 04:49:29 PM
 #19582

what is this bizarro world where any ledger of ownership qualifies as a blockchain  Huh

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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January 04, 2015, 05:03:28 PM
 #19583

what is this bizarro world where any ledger of ownership qualifies as a blockchain  Huh
*ahem*

Academic interest in bitcoin only. Not owner, not trader, very skeptical of its longterm success.
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January 04, 2015, 05:09:59 PM
 #19584

what is this bizarro world where any ledger of ownership qualifies as a blockchain  Huh
*ahem*


if he's confused, we're all in trouble.
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January 04, 2015, 05:11:41 PM
 #19585

The point of moving transactions on-chain is that the user can then own their own coins, rather than delegating ownership to a third party like mtgox.

But each SC has its own spvp (single address)  that everyone has to move through to the SC? In other words,  everyone has to send their BTC to that address and then are somehow going to receive individually assigned scBTC on the other side?  

So the spv peg transactions (which anyone can create at any time) includes a list of addresses and amounts to emerge on the sidechain, so that could be one user, or a group of users each contributing inputs a bit like CoinJoin.  However its going to be more efficient to use an arbitrageur or cross-chain atomic swap for all but large liquidity calls if the trade gets imbalanced.

Adam


shouldn't the addresses and amounts that emerge onto SC be reflected/displayed/shown within its blockchain?

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January 04, 2015, 05:30:41 PM
 #19586

I'm new to this thread.  Without reading all 989 pages of posts, can somebody summarize the prevailing Zeitgeist of this thread?

Shouldn't it read, "Bitcoin collapsing, Gold is steady"?

It reminds me, as a gold bug, of the 'collapse' in gold the last few years.  Since my average price is well below $1000 an ounce, I don't really care if it falls from its all time high, as I'm still above water.

Is it the same with most of you BTC holders?  Or did you buy at the peak?

TonyT

There are no precise statistics about the number of people that bought higher than the current market price but you can assume it's now more than 50%.


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January 04, 2015, 05:32:32 PM
 #19587


shouldn't the addresses and amounts that emerge onto SC be reflected/displayed/shown within its blockchain?

I would hope not.  I see no reason for it and a bunch of reasons to not have it.  I would like to see things be such that the native Bitcoin network neither knows about nor cares about nor is loaded in any way more than a sidechain being just another user.

Of course Bitcoin is an open network so various kinds of analysis could probably elucidate a lot about what users (individual and group proxys like a sidechain) might be up to.

 edit - oops.  Missread 'its' blockchain.  I personally don't assume that all (or maybe even most) sidechains would have a blockchain and if these classes of sidechains do it would be an artificial thing needed to help integrate with and support the Bitcoin blockchain.


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January 04, 2015, 05:36:29 PM
 #19588


shouldn't the addresses and amounts that emerge onto SC be reflected/displayed/shown within its blockchain?

I would hope not.  I see no reason for it and a bunch of reasons to not have it.  I would like to see things be such that the native Bitcoin network neither knows about nor cares about nor is loaded in any way more than a sidechain being just another user.

Of course Bitcoin is an open network so various kinds of analysis could probably elucidate a lot about what users (individual and group proxys like a sidechain) might be up to.



so what is the point of MM'ing the SC to begin with then?  isn't a blockchain (SC in this case) supposed to verify the integrity of what's going on?  might as well keep a secret ledger on a central server maintained by Karpeles.
adam3us
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January 04, 2015, 05:45:29 PM
 #19589


shouldn't the addresses and amounts that emerge onto SC be reflected/displayed/shown within its blockchain?

I would hope not.  I see no reason for it and a bunch of reasons to not have it.  I would like to see things be such that the native Bitcoin network neither knows about nor cares about nor is loaded in any way more than a sidechain being just another user.

Of course Bitcoin is an open network so various kinds of analysis could probably elucidate a lot about what users (individual and group proxys like a sidechain) might be up to.

so what is the point of MM'ing the SC to begin with then?  isn't a blockchain (SC in this case) supposed to verify the integrity of what's going on?  might as well keep a secret ledger on a central server maintained by Karpeles.

I think tvbcof is talking about privacy so eg if the sidechain is an implementation of zerocash its an opaque blob and all you know is the total balance and the number of tx/day.

You can hide locks on bitcoin with a simple change (thats what committed-tx does) so you dont know which bitcoin addresses are locked vs just idle.  

I think what tvbcof is saying as a requirement is it'd be nice if you didnt know how much was in the sidechain (cant distinguish locked from parked on mainchain).

But for the sidechain to accept that it has to know how much and have it proven.  That implies a pretty large snark proof of bitcoin blockchain.

Adam

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January 04, 2015, 05:45:37 PM
 #19590


shouldn't the addresses and amounts that emerge onto SC be reflected/displayed/shown within its blockchain?

I would hope not.  I see no reason for it and a bunch of reasons to not have it.  I would like to see things be such that the native Bitcoin network neither knows about nor cares about nor is loaded in any way more than a sidechain being just another user.

Of course Bitcoin is an open network so various kinds of analysis could probably elucidate a lot about what users (individual and group proxys like a sidechain) might be up to.



so what is the point of MM'ing the SC to begin with then?  isn't a blockchain (SC in this case) supposed to verify the integrity of what's going on?  might as well keep a secret ledger on a central server maintained by Karpeles.

I clarified a bit as an edit.

I've always been more inclined to favor more of a token system for 'exchange currency' duty.  Under such a 'token flavored sidechain' I would only wish to be able to verify that I am in sole control of my tokens and could induce a particular native Bitcoin retrieval on demand.  For such a system I would accept a certain amount of slop since this would go a long way toward implementation efficiency, and I won't die if I lose (or gain) a few nickles in some sort of a SC failure.


adam3us
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January 04, 2015, 05:49:28 PM
 #19591

I've always been more inclined to favor more of a token system for 'exchange currency' duty.  Under such a 'token flavored sidechain' I would only wish to be able to verify that I am in sole control of my tokens and could induce a particular native Bitcoin retrieval on demand.  For such a system I would accept a certain amount of slop since this would go a long way toward implementation efficiency, and I won't die if I lose (or gain) a few nickles in some sort of a SC failure.

I guess I didnt understand what you meant then (I was thinking privacy).  Still not getting it.

Adam

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NewLiberty
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January 04, 2015, 05:52:14 PM
 #19592

I'm new to this thread.  Without reading all 989 pages of posts, can somebody summarize the prevailing Zeitgeist of this thread?

Shouldn't it read, "Bitcoin collapsing, Gold is steady"?

It reminds me, as a gold bug, of the 'collapse' in gold the last few years.  Since my average price is well below $1000 an ounce, I don't really care if it falls from its all time high, as I'm still above water.

Is it the same with most of you BTC holders?  Or did you buy at the peak?

TonyT

There are no precise statistics about the number of people that bought higher than the current market price but you can assume it's now more than 50%.

picolo, TonyT, there are VERY precise statistics of exactly this (just not by "person", only by "bitcoin").  All of the data is in the block chain.  Anyone can see precisely when every bitcoin was last transferred.  There are also pretty good data on exchange rates to whatever your favorite currency is (if not bitcoin).  Every UTXO exists in a timestamped block.

Ratcliff has put together some nice area charts showing the age.
http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2n205b/an_area_chart_showing_the_distribution_of/

So to answer your question, most bitcoin were last transferred at well under the current price.
(And this chart below only includes the last 4 years of transfers, older bitcoin are not included)

FREE MONEY1 Bitcoin for Silver and Gold NewLibertyDollar.com and now BITCOIN SPECIE (silver 1 ozt) shows value by QR
Bulk premiums as low as .0012 BTC "BETTER, MORE COLLECTIBLE, AND CHEAPER THAN SILVER EAGLES" 1Free of Government
cypherdoc
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January 04, 2015, 05:57:39 PM
 #19593


shouldn't the addresses and amounts that emerge onto SC be reflected/displayed/shown within its blockchain?

I would hope not.  I see no reason for it and a bunch of reasons to not have it.  I would like to see things be such that the native Bitcoin network neither knows about nor cares about nor is loaded in any way more than a sidechain being just another user.

Of course Bitcoin is an open network so various kinds of analysis could probably elucidate a lot about what users (individual and group proxys like a sidechain) might be up to.



so what is the point of MM'ing the SC to begin with then?  isn't a blockchain (SC in this case) supposed to verify the integrity of what's going on?  might as well keep a secret ledger on a central server maintained by Karpeles.

I clarified a bit as an edit.

I've always been more inclined to favor more of a token system for 'exchange currency' duty.  Under such a 'token flavored sidechain' I would only wish to be able to verify that I am in sole control of my tokens and could induce a particular native Bitcoin retrieval on demand.  For such a system I would accept a certain amount of slop since this would go a long way toward implementation efficiency, and I won't die if I lose (or gain) a few nickles in some sort of a SC failure.



none of what you're saying then makes sense compared to what Adam has been saying.

SC's are blockchains except in the case of federated server SC's (but even that definition is being fuzzed over by the SC ppl calling an internal ledger a SC  Huh)
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January 04, 2015, 06:00:42 PM
 #19594

d to explain it.
If lots of people buy the etf and its price goes up then the BTC price gets driven up through arb, so yes buying the ETF does affect BTC

That is a non-trivial "if"...

What is it exactly that prevents those potential COIN buyers from buying BTC directly, or SMBIT shares?   The fact that they are not traded on an exchange like NASDAQ?  Or some intrinsic property of the asset?

Note that COIN shares will uninsured against theft or loss, besides being backed only by a "stock" (BTCs) that itself has no backing assets.

The Fortress investment group bought a bunch of BTC in 2013.  Those BTC were the only red stain in their Q1/2014 report.  So Fortress promptly swapped those BTC for equity in the Pantera Fund's managing company (not shares of the fund itself).  If COIN existed in 2013, and Fortress had bought COIN instead of BTC, the result would probably have been pretty much the same.

What I mean is that COIN may not be much more attractive to large investors than BTC itself.  Large investors are not likely to be impressed by a 5-year logscale plot with a red straight line on it.  In case you have not been paying attention, to people outside the bitcoin community bitcoin does not look like the financial miracle that it seemed to be 13 months ago.

And it is a fact that no one who has some money to spare believes that bitcoin will be worth 3000 $ in 2015.  Otherwise they would rush to buy those coins that are now being offered for sale at 290 $/BTC, and no one is buying.

Permit me to quote myself from another thread.....

Quote
One point that's been overlooked in this discussion: ETFs allow institutional and qualified/professional investors to purchase regulated securities, pursuant either to their own internal bylaws and product placement memoranda, or to securities laws by which they must abide. For example, a professional investment fund, such as a mutual fund or hedge fund or pension fund, is limited in how it may allocate investors' funds insofar as the fund is only permitted to purchase securities regulated under such-and-such provisions. A fund may indeed wish to purchase bitcoins right now, but it cannot due to the aforesaid regulatory provisions; however an ETF investment vehicle would allow the fund to purchase shares in the bitcoin ETF right now, shares that would presumably track the Bitcoin price, and may be bought, sold, and traded—in a regulated environment—as any other shares would be.
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January 04, 2015, 06:02:20 PM
 #19595

d to explain it.
If lots of people buy the etf and its price goes up then the BTC price gets driven up through arb, so yes buying the ETF does affect BTC

That is a non-trivial "if"...

What is it exactly that prevents those potential COIN buyers from buying BTC directly, or SMBIT shares?   The fact that they are not traded on an exchange like NASDAQ?  Or some intrinsic property of the asset?

Note that COIN shares will uninsured against theft or loss, besides being backed only by a "stock" (BTCs) that itself has no backing assets.

The Fortress investment group bought a bunch of BTC in 2013.  Those BTC were the only red stain in their Q1/2014 report.  So Fortress promptly swapped those BTC for equity in the Pantera Fund's managing company (not shares of the fund itself).  If COIN existed in 2013, and Fortress had bought COIN instead of BTC, the result would probably have been pretty much the same.

What I mean is that COIN may not be much more attractive to large investors than BTC itself.  Large investors are not likely to be impressed by a 5-year logscale plot with a red straight line on it.  In case you have not been paying attention, to people outside the bitcoin community bitcoin does not look like the financial miracle that it seemed to be 13 months ago.

And it is a fact that no one who has some money to spare believes that bitcoin will be worth 3000 $ in 2015.  Otherwise they would rush to buy those coins that are now being offered for sale at 290 $/BTC, and no one is buying.

Permit me to quote myself from another thread.....

Quote
One point that's been overlooked in this discussion: ETFs allow institutional and qualified/professional investors to purchase regulated securities, pursuant either to their own internal bylaws and product placement memoranda, or to securities laws by which they must abide. For example, a professional investment fund, such as a mutual fund or hedge fund or pension fund, is limited in how it may allocate investors' funds insofar as the fund is only permitted to purchase securities regulated under such-and-such provisions. A fund may indeed wish to purchase bitcoins right now, but it cannot due to the aforesaid regulatory provisions; however an ETF investment vehicle would allow the fund to purchase shares in the bitcoin ETF right now, shares that would presumably track the Bitcoin price, and may be bought, sold, and traded—in a regulated environment—as any other shares would be.


this
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January 04, 2015, 06:07:24 PM
 #19596

One coin to rule them all:

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January 04, 2015, 06:08:11 PM
 #19597

d to explain it.
If lots of people buy the etf and its price goes up then the BTC price gets driven up through arb, so yes buying the ETF does affect BTC

That is a non-trivial "if"...

What is it exactly that prevents those potential COIN buyers from buying BTC directly, or SMBIT shares?   The fact that they are not traded on an exchange like NASDAQ?  Or some intrinsic property of the asset?

Note that COIN shares will uninsured against theft or loss, besides being backed only by a "stock" (BTCs) that itself has no backing assets.

The Fortress investment group bought a bunch of BTC in 2013.  Those BTC were the only red stain in their Q1/2014 report.  So Fortress promptly swapped those BTC for equity in the Pantera Fund's managing company (not shares of the fund itself).  If COIN existed in 2013, and Fortress had bought COIN instead of BTC, the result would probably have been pretty much the same.

What I mean is that COIN may not be much more attractive to large investors than BTC itself.  Large investors are not likely to be impressed by a 5-year logscale plot with a red straight line on it.  In case you have not been paying attention, to people outside the bitcoin community bitcoin does not look like the financial miracle that it seemed to be 13 months ago.

And it is a fact that no one who has some money to spare believes that bitcoin will be worth 3000 $ in 2015.  Otherwise they would rush to buy those coins that are now being offered for sale at 290 $/BTC, and no one is buying.

Permit me to quote myself from another thread.....

Quote
One point that's been overlooked in this discussion: ETFs allow institutional and qualified/professional investors to purchase regulated securities, pursuant either to their own internal bylaws and product placement memoranda, or to securities laws by which they must abide. For example, a professional investment fund, such as a mutual fund or hedge fund or pension fund, is limited in how it may allocate investors' funds insofar as the fund is only permitted to purchase securities regulated under such-and-such provisions. A fund may indeed wish to purchase bitcoins right now, but it cannot due to the aforesaid regulatory provisions; however an ETF investment vehicle would allow the fund to purchase shares in the bitcoin ETF right now, shares that would presumably track the Bitcoin price, and may be bought, sold, and traded—in a regulated environment—as any other shares would be.


this

Also... (just about) every investment analyst talks their book.  They are trying to net some fees.  Until the ETF comes out, they are not in on any of the deals.  Once they get a cut of the trade, they can change their tune and start trying to shill for bitcoin instead of against it.

So in addition to unlocking a lot of potential investment fund, it unlocks the media, coopts them.

Face it, a single investor could pretty much buy the current bitcoin float on the exchanges.  It isn't though the unlocking of the funds is that big of a a deal.  But changing the investment news media tide is going to change a lot of minds and hearts.  Some of these may even bother to learn what bitcoin really is, and that is where it becomes a good thing.

As an engine for price manipulation the ETF is a monster, it can wreck massive damage. but as a tool we can leverage to educate, it is hard to beat.

FREE MONEY1 Bitcoin for Silver and Gold NewLibertyDollar.com and now BITCOIN SPECIE (silver 1 ozt) shows value by QR
Bulk premiums as low as .0012 BTC "BETTER, MORE COLLECTIBLE, AND CHEAPER THAN SILVER EAGLES" 1Free of Government
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January 04, 2015, 06:10:10 PM
 #19598

I've always been more inclined to favor more of a token system for 'exchange currency' duty.  Under such a 'token flavored sidechain' I would only wish to be able to verify that I am in sole control of my tokens and could induce a particular native Bitcoin retrieval on demand.  For such a system I would accept a certain amount of slop since this would go a long way toward implementation efficiency, and I won't die if I lose (or gain) a few nickles in some sort of a SC failure.

I guess I didnt understand what you meant then (I was thinking privacy).  Still not getting it.

Adam

you've been agreeing with a lunatic  Wink
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January 04, 2015, 06:19:50 PM
 #19599

tvbcof think SC's are tokens, not blockchains.
brg444 is confused about SC's.
Adam ruminates about manipulating the issuance curve & even deleting future block rewards.
Odalv calls a federated server internal database a SC.
JStolfi calls a SC a Bitstamp couch.
LTC looks to be dying.
BTC price plummets (to support @peak of last top)
i may be getting SC's.

the world is falling apart.

yeehaw.
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January 04, 2015, 06:21:46 PM
 #19600

Adam,

If mtgox had had you design a SC for them, would you have structured a single specific SPVmtgox SC to which everyone would have sent their BTC (one address), then waited 2d for confirmation, before allowing those individuals to be assigned their own specific  scBTC to be traded p2p , all the while securing this SC with 100% MM?

Lol, Gox wouldn't run out of Bitcoin. It would be short fiat. Trust is earned, and services need to earn it, and markets need to price it in.

To harp on, to fix the abuse of trust in the world today we need to fix the trust in the money we have trusted systems to manage the other relationships, they're hardly broken and in need of SC's.


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