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Question: Will you support Gavin's new block size limit hard fork of 8MB by January 1, 2016 then doubling every 2 years?
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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 1981454 times)
adam3us
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January 01, 2015, 11:53:01 PM
 #19321

i mean, look, we have unencumbered BTC units traveling freely on an ultra secure blockchain whose value involves no counterparty and no other asset.

now, you're asking us to accept an unprecedented change to the protocol which will allow BTC units to intermingle with all sorts of assets limited only by our imaginations all while traveling on a less secure SC.  

We havent actually proposed anything concrete yet, but we expect to with code and a BIP for a op code to do something that is nearly or maybe actually possible already just less efficiently.

The alternative is offchain transactions which are impossible to stop, constitute probably 90% of bitcoin transactions, and remove fees from bitcoin network, and result in an ongoing economic impact when exchanges and other startups with custody of other peoples bitcoins get hacked, get "hacked" or steal them, get them frozen, deleted by accident etc.

That seems like a step forward to me.  Its an op_code.  We dont "own" the op code.  Anyone can use it to write any scripts they can cook up, to do with audit of sidechains or other users they may find.

Adam

hashcash, committed transactions, homomorphic values, blind kdf; researching decentralization, scalability and fungibility/anonymity
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January 02, 2015, 12:01:46 AM
 #19322

i have a suggestion, out of fairness sake.  why don't we allow JR & ft, along with any other wanton altcoin/Bitcoin 2.0 dev, to insert their own highly specific op_code function into Bitcoin source code that benefits their own business model?  as long as it's open source, it should be fine, right?  and we shouldn't care if they are a for-profit, let alone nefarious, business; ppl can just ignore them.

There we go, thats the cypherpdoc we know Smiley 

actually, i'm quite serious.  let me rephrase the exact same concept.  we can let those guys insert an op_code of their choice which will be open source.  it will therefore be usable by anyone and not owned by them.  ppl will be free to ignore it by choice, therefore it can cause no harm.  just like your spvp.  why would you want to "prevent" them from doing that?
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January 02, 2015, 12:05:27 AM
 #19323

... we can let those guys insert an op_code ...

Do you know how many op_codes bitcoin already supports and what they do ?

https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Script
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January 02, 2015, 12:10:49 AM
 #19324

... we can let those guys insert an op_code ...

Do you know how many op_codes bitcoin already supports and what they do ?

https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Script

nope.  i'm just going along with BS's new way of presenting this argument.  if we shouldn't prevent the spvp op_code, why should we prevent op_codes submitted by OT or any other alt or Bitcoin 2.0?
adam3us
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January 02, 2015, 12:17:14 AM
 #19325

i have a suggestion, out of fairness sake.  why don't we allow JR & ft, along with any other wanton altcoin/Bitcoin 2.0 dev, to insert their own highly specific op_code function into Bitcoin source code that benefits their own business model?  as long as it's open source, it should be fine, right?  and we shouldn't care if they are a for-profit, let alone nefarious, business; ppl can just ignore them.

There we go, thats the cypherpdoc we know Smiley 

actually, i'm quite serious.  let me rephrase the exact same concept.  we can let those guys insert an op_code of their choice which will be open source.  it will therefore be usable by anyone and not owned by them.  ppl will be free to ignore it by choice, therefore it can cause no harm.  just like your spvp.  why would you want to "prevent" them from doing that?

I wouldnt work to prevent it I'd evaluate whether it was a good idea or not.  Same as anyone else involved with bitcoin development, so it depends on the value & risks.  Wanna get specific?  op_snark or op_weil-pair support so someone can implement zerocash right in bitcoin?  What do you think?  In or too risky?  (I have a detailed rationale as ecash crypto is my thing, but I'll let you go first:)

There is scarce development and QA bandwidth though, and risk from complexity.

One advantage of sidechains is its a sort of meta-opcode - when you have it you can do nearly anything else, eg you can do op_snark without #including however many kloc of code for a snark library into bitcoind.

As GMaxwell said when I expressed on #bitcoin-wizards right after he connected the dots between his previous snark based covenant idea/discussion and my one-way peg idea to explain two-way pegs, I said "but would that be practical to put into bitcoin given the whole point of pegs is to avoid needing to make changes" and his reply as "well maybe, because its the one change to rule them all".  So I think meta-op_codes have any an extra argument going for them.

(I didnt originally consider two-way pegs because I assumed that you need to find a way that doesnt involve changes, as the rate of pace of change due to risk is the problem I was trying to fix, one-way pegs can do somethings including live-betas but with higher risk of brown-out).  one-way pegs explained here: https://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development%40lists.sourceforge.net/msg02944.html

Adam

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January 02, 2015, 12:18:35 AM
 #19326

... we can let those guys insert an op_code ...

Do you know how many op_codes bitcoin already supports and what they do ?

https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Script

nope.  i'm just going along with BS's new way of presenting this argument.  if we shouldn't prevent the spvp op_code, why should we prevent op_codes submitted by OT or any other alt or Bitcoin 2.0?

It is possible to write LONG script. This script will be hard to understand by human. (it will even hard to understand by programmer) .. and we can replace this LONG UNREADABLE script with single opcode "op_spvproof_verify" => everybody can understand and see what that transaction means.
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January 02, 2015, 12:38:59 AM
 #19327

both you guys are missing the point.

Adam, (& nullc over on Reddit) you have been expressing this conflict as me "preventing" you from giving Bitcoiners a choice to use an op_code that you believe will be helpful to us all.  the tech doesn't matter with this line of reasoning as you've tried to turn this into an ethical or fairness issue under the principle of FOSS.  fine.

by that same logic, you shouldn't prevent an alt or Bitcoin 2.0 that might want to do the same thing you want to do.  as long as other devs are free to copy or utilize an alts op_code, then we should also allow its insertion into the Bitcoin source code alongside your spvp.  it shouldn't hurt b/c Bitcoiners are free to ignore the implications as they can simply inspect the code for any bugs or malware.

or, as i suspect is what is going on here since you are a for-profit, your sense of fairness is selective.
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January 02, 2015, 12:41:55 AM
 #19328

zing*

Forgive my petulance and oft-times, I fear, ill-founded criticisms, and forgive me that I have, by this time, made your eyes and head ache with my long letter. But I cannot forgo hastily the pleasure and pride of thus conversing with you.
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January 02, 2015, 01:47:42 AM
 #19329


No. He said that EVERYTHING approaches zero profitability in a free market. Your hypothesis then is it's not worth doing anything in life because everything is worthless.

I was just trying to gauge where Justus's head was at.  Sometime's it's hard to tell with his type.  Adam says he's OK, but I'm not so sure.  His response tells me that he's probably mostly just another pumper.

Oh well...old stackers like the doc and I, if we are being honest with ourselves, recognize that we owe a lot to the pumpers and the 'principled Libertarian' shtick is hands-down the most effective in Bitcoinland for whatever reason.  Justus rocks here.

Hey J-man:  You pump 'em and I'll dump 'em homey.

The cool thing is that someone else is paying him at least enough to keep his pantry stocked with Top-Ramen, though with Monetas/Concentric/whatever it seems quite possible that it may be me in one of those 'your tax dollars at work' type of deals.


cbeast
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January 02, 2015, 01:51:10 AM
 #19330


No. He said that EVERYTHING approaches zero profitability in a free market. Your hypothesis then is it's not worth doing anything in life because everything is worthless.

I was just trying to gauge where Justus's head was at.  Sometime's it's hard to tell with his type.  Adam says he's OK, but I'm not so sure.  His response tells me that he's probably mostly just another pumper.

Oh well...old stackers like the doc and I, if we are being honest with ourselves, recognize that we owe a lot to the pumpers and the 'principled Libertarian' shtick is hands-down the most effective in Bitcoinland for whatever reason.  Justus rocks here.

Hey J-man:  You pump 'em and I'll dump 'em homey.

The cool thing is that someone else is paying him at least enough to keep his pantry stocked with Top-Ramen, though with Monetas/Concentric/whatever it seems quite possible that it may be me in one of those 'your tax dollars at work' type of deals.


I will vouch for Justus. I know him personally and we've had many discussions. He is a white hat. He is much younger than me and I don't agree with his politics, but every generation must make their own path.

Any significantly advanced cryptocurrency is indistinguishable from Ponzi Tulips.
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January 02, 2015, 03:35:31 AM
 #19331

Bitcoins killer app is SOV.

If we allow an offramp from MC to SC's, I think that goes away.
cbeast
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January 02, 2015, 03:46:08 AM
 #19332

Bitcoins killer app is SOV.

If we allow an offramp from MC to SC's, I think that goes away.
I think the whole SC thing is a red herring. If they can't do it without "social structures" then it's not Bitcoin. OTOH, the social structure crowd has plenty of space for developing mining pool "social structures" that incentives decentralization through Delegated 'insert-term-here' technology.

Any significantly advanced cryptocurrency is indistinguishable from Ponzi Tulips.
cypherdoc
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January 02, 2015, 04:07:17 AM
 #19333

Bitcoins killer app is SOV.

If we allow an offramp from MC to SC's, I think that goes away.
I think the whole SC thing is a red herring. If they can't do it without "social structures" then it's not Bitcoin. OTOH, the social structure crowd has plenty of space for developing mining pool "social structures" that incentives decentralization through Delegated 'insert-term-here' technology.

I think you mean Trojan Horse.

Someone is going to lose alot of money. In fact, most people investing in cryptocurrencies are going to lose money. That's how bull markets are.

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January 02, 2015, 04:14:06 AM
 #19334

Bitcoins killer app is SOV.

If we allow an offramp from MC to SC's, I think that goes away.
I think the whole SC thing is a red herring. If they can't do it without "social structures" then it's not Bitcoin. OTOH, the social structure crowd has plenty of space for developing mining pool "social structures" that incentives decentralization through Delegated 'insert-term-here' technology.

I think you mean Trojan Horse.

Someone is going to lose alot of money. In fact, most people investing in cryptocurrencies are going to lose money. That's how bull markets are.



i mean, we can't bring everyone with us.  it wouldn't be fair.
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January 02, 2015, 04:40:21 AM
 #19335

Bitcoins killer app is SOV.

If we allow an offramp from MC to SC's, I think that goes away.
I think the whole SC thing is a red herring. If they can't do it without "social structures" then it's not Bitcoin. OTOH, the social structure crowd has plenty of space for developing mining pool "social structures" that incentives decentralization through Delegated 'insert-term-here' technology.

I think you mean Trojan Horse.

Someone is going to lose alot of money. In fact, most people investing in cryptocurrencies are going to lose money. That's how bull markets are.



i mean, we can't bring everyone with us.  it wouldn't be fair.
We'll see if/when SCs are no longer vaporware. Perhaps it will only be the VCs and IPO investors that lose money.

Any significantly advanced cryptocurrency is indistinguishable from Ponzi Tulips.
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January 02, 2015, 04:55:59 AM
 #19336


Someone is going to lose alot of money. In fact, most people investing in cryptocurrencies are going to lose money. That's how bull markets are.

And how pump-n-dumps are.  Just sayin'


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January 02, 2015, 09:29:15 AM
 #19337

Other things also snarks can do magical things (full node validation and low bandwidth), sharding like Rusty Russel is exploring with pettycoin (its not an alt, its an approach to sharding bitcoin).

Rusty Russell? The creator of iptables/netfilter?

Edit: a brief search confirmed we have another main linux kernel developer on board

Ayup the one and same.  He has a video up about pettycoin chain sharding https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzst_gChOr8.

btw that is a kind of (non-pegged) sidechain and you hear him talking about a gateway or federated gateway.  That is like a federated peg.  (Yeah he knows its related, he's hanging out on #bitcoin-wizards and discussing pettycoin design with GMaxwell and others).

(Pettycoin is a micropayment network bitcoin auxiliary chain aiming at scaling to 100k tx/sec.)

Adam


Thanks for the info Adam, appreciated. I will have a look.

Somehow it seems that ex/still active kernel hackers are attracted to bitcoin world. Actually we have three of them involved (that I'm aware of): Garzik, Kolivas and now Russell. All of them did a lot of good stuff in the kernel sphere.

Bitcoin is a participatory system which ought to respect the right of self determinism of all of its users - Gregory Maxwell.
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January 02, 2015, 11:38:18 AM
 #19338

When btc is as big as gold, it will itself become a benchmark. Hold gold for privacy, hold bitcoin for convenience, no need for fiat in this world. even apple pay is unnecessary.

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January 02, 2015, 12:23:16 PM
 #19339

Bitcoins killer app is SOV.

If we allow an offramp from MC to SC's, I think that goes away.
I think the whole SC thing is a red herring. If they can't do it without "social structures" then it's not Bitcoin. OTOH, the social structure crowd has plenty of space for developing mining pool "social structures" that incentives decentralization through Delegated 'insert-term-here' technology.

I think you mean Trojan Horse.

Someone is going to lose alot of money. In fact, most people investing in cryptocurrencies are going to lose money. That's how bull markets are.



i mean, we can't bring everyone with us.  it wouldn't be fair.
We'll see if/when SCs are no longer vaporware. Perhaps it will only be the VCs and IPO investors that lose money.

you guys know that nxt has essentially beaten bitcoin to sidechains and not only that but its done it with out the need for side chains.. ie the side coins are secured by the nxt blockchain so theres no need for secondary chains Smiley its going live @ block 330000 i think. just thought id burst your sidechain bubbles Cheesy

the currencies built on top can have their own fuctions, distribution rate/methods, need to lock nxt to use them etc etc.. they just dont need their own chain.

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January 02, 2015, 12:31:01 PM
 #19340

you guys know that nxt has essentially beaten bitcoin to sidechains .......

Oh boy. This will be interesting.

Cue the @Garzik et al, derision!
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