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Question: Will you support Gavin's new block size limit hard fork of 8MB by January 1, 2016 then doubling every 2 years?
1.  yes
2.  no

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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 1978435 times)
kodtycoon
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January 02, 2015, 12:35:16 PM
 #19341

you guys know that nxt has essentially beaten bitcoin to sidechains .......

Oh boy. This will be interesting.

Cue the @Garzik et al, derision!

someone should tweet @Garzick and let him down easy.. might be easier on him if it comes from an empathetic bitcoiner than a smug nxter lol

There are several different types of Bitcoin clients. The most secure are full nodes like Bitcoin-Qt, but full nodes are more resource-heavy, and they must do a lengthy initial syncing process. As a result, lightweight clients with somewhat less security are commonly used.
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January 02, 2015, 01:14:48 PM
 #19342

" secured by the nxt blockchain "

Secured by Proof of Stake?

Good luck with that.  You'll need it, esp given NXT's extremely top heavy distribution and previous problems:

http://cointelegraph.com/news/112278/breaking-bter-hacked-50m-nxt-stolen

My bet is on VIA's treechains, secured by Proof of Work in the form of merged scrypt mining.

The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy.  David Chaum 1996
"Monero" : { Private - Auditable - 100% Fungible - Flexible Blocksize - Wild & Free® - Intro - Core GUI - Podcats - Roadmap - Dice - Blackjack - Github - Android }
MoneroForCash.com  |  Buy and sell XMR near you  |  Easymonero.com  |  Bitsquare.io - Decentralized XMR Exchange  |  Buy XMR with fiat
Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect.  Adam Back 2014

Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016
Blocks must necessarily be full for the Bitcoin network to be able to pay for its own security.  davout 2015
Blocksize is an intentionally limited resource, like the 21e6 BTC limit.  Changing it degrades the surrounding economics, creating negative incentives.  Jeff Garzik 2013


The raison d'être of bitcoin is trustlessness. - Eric Lombrozo 2015
It is an Engineering Requirement that Bitcoin be “Above the Law”  Paul Sztorc 2015
Resiliency, not efficiency, is the paramount goal of decentralized, non-state sanctioned currency -Jon Matonis 2015

Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016

Technology tends to move in the direction of making surveillance easier, and the ability of computers to track us doubles every eighteen months. - Phil Zimmerman 2013

The only way to make software secure, reliable, and fast is to make it small. Fight Features. - Andy Tanenbaum 2004
adam3us
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January 02, 2015, 01:16:02 PM
 #19343

you guys know that nxt has essentially beaten bitcoin to sidechains .......

Oh boy. This will be interesting.

Cue the @Garzik et al, derision!

I dont want any death threats (you know Jeff Garzik tweeted about getting some after saying something derogatory about NXT and technobabble) but for a long while NXT was closed source, and since it became open, I never took the trouble to try to decipher whether what it claims to do is actually achieved in a decentralised way.  Actually beyond that I dont even know what it claims to do beyond "bitcoin 2.0" like bitshares, and the rest.

If someone works up the energy, be sure to explain what they're talking about to us.

Adam

hashcash, committed transactions, homomorphic values, blind kdf; researching decentralization, scalability and fungibility/anonymity
darkmind
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January 02, 2015, 01:17:49 PM
 #19344

When btc is as big as gold, it will itself become a benchmark. Hold gold for privacy, hold bitcoin for convenience, no need for fiat in this world. even apple pay is unnecessary.

fiat ain't gonna disappear anytime soon and anyone who thinks it is, well in my opinion they're just fooling themselves

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January 02, 2015, 01:17:59 PM
 #19345

" secured by the nxt blockchain "

Secured by Proof of Stake?

Good luck with that.  You'll need it, esp given NXT's extremely top heavy distribution and previous problems:

http://cointelegraph.com/news/112278/breaking-bter-hacked-50m-nxt-stolen

My bet is on VIA's treechains, secured by Proof of Work in the form of merged scrypt mining.

You know Peter Todd self-admits freely that he hasnt figured out if tree chains work at incentive level yet, its the kernel of an idea that may or may not work - not an implementable spec.  Its based on full node only model, somewhat like the respendable version of my commited tx idea https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=206303.15.  So tree-chains wont have the same scaling properties if they do work, but its an interesting line of exploration.   I'm interested to see if he can make it work, or to add ideas if I can.  I didnt see anything further yet beyond the common inputs (from a 4hr late night IRC chat between Peter & myself) that went into both respendable committed tx and tree-chains.  And as far as that goes committed-tx dont quite work either due to an issue Peter Todd describes as the proof-of-publication issue.

Adam

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January 02, 2015, 01:30:06 PM
 #19346

You know Peter Todd self-admits freely that he hasnt figured out if tree chains work at incentive level yet, its the kernel of an idea that may or may not work - not an implementable spec.

Yes, TCs are in the early research stage.  But even if that idea isn't viable (pun intended), I'd still rather use sidechains secured by POW than POS - especially NXT's particular version.

Thanks for making me elaborate!

The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy.  David Chaum 1996
"Monero" : { Private - Auditable - 100% Fungible - Flexible Blocksize - Wild & Free® - Intro - Core GUI - Podcats - Roadmap - Dice - Blackjack - Github - Android }
MoneroForCash.com  |  Buy and sell XMR near you  |  Easymonero.com  |  Bitsquare.io - Decentralized XMR Exchange  |  Buy XMR with fiat
Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect.  Adam Back 2014

Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016
Blocks must necessarily be full for the Bitcoin network to be able to pay for its own security.  davout 2015
Blocksize is an intentionally limited resource, like the 21e6 BTC limit.  Changing it degrades the surrounding economics, creating negative incentives.  Jeff Garzik 2013


The raison d'être of bitcoin is trustlessness. - Eric Lombrozo 2015
It is an Engineering Requirement that Bitcoin be “Above the Law”  Paul Sztorc 2015
Resiliency, not efficiency, is the paramount goal of decentralized, non-state sanctioned currency -Jon Matonis 2015

Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016

Technology tends to move in the direction of making surveillance easier, and the ability of computers to track us doubles every eighteen months. - Phil Zimmerman 2013

The only way to make software secure, reliable, and fast is to make it small. Fight Features. - Andy Tanenbaum 2004
thezerg
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January 02, 2015, 01:47:52 PM
 #19347

... we can let those guys insert an op_code ...

Do you know how many op_codes bitcoin already supports and what they do ?

https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Script

nope.  i'm just going along with BS's new way of presenting this argument.  if we shouldn't prevent the spvp op_code, why should we prevent op_codes submitted by OT or any other alt or Bitcoin 2.0?

Just like with bitcoin we should evaluate these new opcodes on their technical merit not on who submitted them.
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January 02, 2015, 02:24:57 PM
 #19348

Just like with bitcoin we should evaluate these new opcodes on their technical merit not on who submitted them.

Hey Zerg - no fair - too much signal density (signal/byte!) 

This is bitcointalk - where's the trolling, name-calling, ad-hominem or claim of bad faith bias?

cypherdoc - can you do us a favour and redress the karmic balance before the signal gets too high in here?  Gotta rev up the flame war, it was fun!

Adam

hashcash, committed transactions, homomorphic values, blind kdf; researching decentralization, scalability and fungibility/anonymity
JorgeStolfi
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January 02, 2015, 02:47:31 PM
 #19349

Well the term sidechain is sort of fuzzy pre-existing term that means something like a related chain that watches or interacts with a parent or sibling chain.

Thanks for taking the time to answer my stupid questions.  If I can abuse once more of your patience, please consider this scenario:

  Someone, not connected to Blockstream or any other bitcoin entity, creates a new altcoin GreatNewCoin (GNC).

  GNC is basically a clone of bitcoin, with SHA PoW, block rewards etc.

  GNC has a few advantages over BTC, say 10x faster block rate; but is also endorsed by Bill Gates, Oprah Winfrey, Justin Bieber, and the Dalai Lama.

  GNC can be merge-mined with BTC, and occasionally inserts hashes into the BTC blockchain to make itself "secured by the bitcoin blockchain". Still, GNC is not explicitly supported by the bitcoin protocol, and there is no expliciit "transfer" of BTC to it.

  Most bitcoin miners will merge-mine GNC too, since they may win the 50 GNC block reward as well as the 25 BTC reward, without extra work.  Thus GNC, from the start, has the same network hashpower as BTC.

  Various people set up exchanges between BTC, GNC, and national currencies.  People also trade GNC over-the-counter, person-to-person, etc.   BitPay adds GNC as a payment option for all their affiliated merchants.  These ventures do have no explicit support in the GNC (or BTC) protocol and network.

  GNC price rises from 0.10$ to 1$.  Some smart BTC holders sell their BTC for dollars or GNC.  Some dumb GNC holders sell their GNC for dollars of BTC.  The price of GNC keeps rising, while that of BTC starts to drop.

  One Monday at 06:30 am, the market suddenly gets the idea that GNC is going to supersede BTC.  BTC holders rush to sell BTC and buy GNC.  In a few hours, the price of GNC rallies to 1000$, while that of BTC crashes to near zero.

  At 11:30 am, the Winkles wake up to discover that their 200'000 BTC are now worth 2 kopeks and a Somalian shilling.

  Since the BTC rewards and fees are now worthless, most miners stop mining BTC and keep mining GNC only.  Only a few persist, for sentimental reasons. The BTC block rate drops to near zero for months, until the difficulty gets readjusted.

  Then someone, not connected to Blockstream, GNC, or any other bitcoin entity, creates a new altcoin SuperShibaCoin (SSC)....

Summary: doesn't merged mining provide a path for an altcoin to steal bitcoin's network power and market cap, with little investment,  even without any change to the BTC protocol and without any special mechanism to "transfer" BTC to it?

Could some sidechains innovation provide suitable incentives to miners that would prevent this risk?

Academic interest in bitcoin only. Not owner, not trader, very skeptical of its longterm success.
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January 02, 2015, 02:49:26 PM
 #19350

....- especially NXT's particular version.

Draft press release of NXT SC version ..... https://nxtforum.org/general-discussion/launching-1-4/msg145133/#msg145133
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January 02, 2015, 02:54:11 PM
 #19351

Well the term sidechain is sort of fuzzy pre-existing term that means something like a related chain that watches or interacts with a parent or sibling chain.

Thanks for taking the time to answer my stupid questions.  If I can abuse once more of your patience, please consider this scenario:

  Someone, not connected to Blockstream or any other bitcoin entity, creates a new altcoin GreatNewCoin (GNC).

  GNC is basically a clone of bitcoin, with SHA PoW, block rewards etc.

  GNC has a few advantages over BTC, say 10x faster block rate; but is also endorsed by Bill Gates, Oprah Winfrey, Justin Bieber, and the Dalai Lama.

  GNC can be merge-mined with BTC, and occasionally inserts hashes into the BTC blockchain to make itself "secured by the bitcoin blockchain". Still, GNC is not explicitly supported by the bitcoin protocol, and there is no expliciit "transfer" of BTC to it.

  Most bitcoin miners will merge-mine GNC too, since they may win the 50 GNC block reward as well as the 25 BTC reward, without extra work.  Thus GNC, from the start, has the same network hashpower as BTC.

  Various people set up exchanges between BTC, GNC, and national currencies.  People also trade GNC over-the-counter, person-to-person, etc.   BitPay adds GNC as a payment option for all their affiliated merchants.  These ventures do have no explicit support in the GNC (or BTC) protocol and network.

  GNC price rises from 0.10$ to 1$.  Some smart BTC holders sell their BTC for dollars or GNC.  Some dumb GNC holders sell their GNC for dollars of BTC.  The price of GNC keeps rising, while that of BTC starts to drop.

  One Monday at 06:30 am, the market suddenly gets the idea that GNC is going to supersede BTC.  BTC holders rush to sell BTC and buy GNC.  In a few hours, the price of GNC rallies to 1000$, while that of BTC crashes to near zero.

  At 11:30 am, the Winkles wake up to discover that their 200'000 BTC are now worth 2 kopeks and a Somalian shilling.

  Since the BTC rewards and fees are now worthless, most miners stop mining BTC and keep mining GNC only.  Only a few persist, for sentimental reasons. The BTC block rate drops to near zero for months, until the difficulty gets readjusted.

  Then someone, not connected to Blockstream, GNC, or any other bitcoin entity, creates a new altcoin SuperShibaCoin (SSC)....

Summary: doesn't merged mining provide a path for an altcoin to steal bitcoin's network power and market cap, with little investment,  even without any change to the BTC protocol and without any special mechanism to "transfer" BTC to it?

Could some sidechains innovation provide suitable incentives to miners that would prevent this risk?


That'd be a great invention.

I mean your scenario is a little bit unrealistic but I think it would be secure.
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January 02, 2015, 03:10:39 PM
 #19352

Summary: doesn't merged mining provide a path for an altcoin to steal bitcoin's network power and market cap, with little investment,  even without any change to the BTC protocol and without any special mechanism to "transfer" BTC to it?
Could some sidechains innovation provide suitable incentives to miners that would prevent this risk?
That'd be a great invention.

By "that" you mean the GNC coin, or a way to protect BTC from having its network stolen via merged mining?

As fas as I can see, such a "bitcoin killer" coin would not need to invent anything, correct?

Academic interest in bitcoin only. Not owner, not trader, very skeptical of its longterm success.
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January 02, 2015, 03:12:29 PM
 #19353

....- especially NXT's particular version.

Draft press release of NXT SC version ..... https://nxtforum.org/general-discussion/launching-1-4/msg145133/#msg145133

The idea is similar to the sidechains development taking place in Bitcoin – with the difference that the additional functionality is all contained within the NXT platform, without the need for an external two-way peg.

Emphasis mine.
It doesn't offer a two-way peg, so what does the SC stand for?

Any significantly advanced cryptocurrency is indistinguishable from Ponzi Tulips.
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January 02, 2015, 03:39:41 PM
 #19354

you guys know that nxt has essentially beaten bitcoin to sidechains .......

Oh boy. This will be interesting.

Cue the @Garzik et al, derision!

I dont want any death threats (you know Jeff Garzik tweeted about getting some after saying something derogatory about NXT and technobabble) but for a long while NXT was closed source, and since it became open, I never took the trouble to try to decipher whether what it claims to do is actually achieved in a decentralised way.  Actually beyond that I dont even know what it claims to do beyond "bitcoin 2.0" like bitshares, and the rest.

If someone works up the energy, be sure to explain what they're talking about to us.

Adam


http://cointelegraph.com/news/113223/the-nxt-client-just-gave-me-a-braingasm

More importantly... Nxt is a platform, not an altcoin. A massive amount of innovative projects are being built on top, SuperNet being the biggest one that you should not be ignoring: http://cointelegraph.com/news/113229/supernet-super-competition-for-fiat

There's also FreeMarket, Lyth, InstantDex, TradeBots, financial privacy and anon tech that destroys coinjoin/mix, FinHive's blockchain AI tech(http://finhive.com/roadmap.html), distributed plugin system(verifiable untamporable web app plugins stored on the blockchain), distributed anon websites and comm(may offer safer access then Tor itself), encrypted messaging without needing an ip address, decentralized file storage via integration with storj, the multigateway, decentralized poker, p2p sprtsbetting/dice/casino, etc... I could go on and on.

Oh and many of these things will also be usable with Bitcoin!
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January 02, 2015, 03:48:33 PM
 #19355

http://cointelegraph.com/news/113223/the-nxt-client-just-gave-me-a-braingasm

More importantly... Nxt is a platform, not an altcoin. A massive amount of innovative projects are being built on top, SuperNet being the biggest one that you should not be ignoring: http://cointelegraph.com/news/113229/supernet-super-competition-for-fiat

There's also FreeMarket, Lyth, InstantDex, TradeBots, financial privacy and anon tech that destroys coinjoin/mix, FinHive's blockchain AI tech(http://finhive.com/roadmap.html), distributed plugin system(verifiable untamporable web app plugins stored on the blockchain), the multigateway, decentralized poker, p2p sprtsbetting/dice/casino, etc... I could go on and on.

Sounds like a lot of people wasting time and BTC to me.

Appears Fred Wilson agrees

http://avc.com/2015/01/what-is-going-to-happen/

8/ The horrible year that bitcoin had in 2014 will be a wakeup call for all stakeholders. Developers will turn their energy from creating the next bitcoin (all the alt stuff) to creating the stack on top of the bitcoin blockchain. Real decentralized applications will start to emerge as the platform matures and entrepreneurial energy is channeled in the right direction.

Appears Andreas agrees:

http://youtu.be/jw28y81s7Wo?t=16m30s

Looks like Jeff Berwick is interested as well:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9JT7P9P7kig

Adam B Lavine and Stephanie Murphy are also very interested. Along with Kristov Atlas, Jason King, Roger Ver, Anthony DiLoria, Elizabeth Ploshay, Shawn @ team storj... and MANY others. 319 contributers and counting.

The SuperNet project is not some dinky toy. It will be a serious force in 2015, I've been saying this for months and people are beginning to wake up. Nxt up 20% over the past 2 days. SuperNet has held very strong over this bear market, that says something. When all the supernet start paying out dividends for it's massively growing list of included projects/services, watch out!
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January 02, 2015, 04:03:28 PM
 #19356

http://cointelegraph.com/news/113223/the-nxt-client-just-gave-me-a-braingasm

More importantly... Nxt is a platform, not an altcoin. A massive amount of innovative projects are being built on top, SuperNet being the biggest one that you should not be ignoring: http://cointelegraph.com/news/113229/supernet-super-competition-for-fiat

The article describes something more like SuperNet running as a layer under Nxt ... which is bizarre when you consider that a big selling point of Nxt is a decentralised exchange platform. How long before an internet of internets containing internets of blockchains (with sidechains?  Cheesy)

Vires in numeris
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January 02, 2015, 04:05:13 PM
 #19357

http://cointelegraph.com/news/113223/the-nxt-client-just-gave-me-a-braingasm

More importantly... Nxt is a platform, not an altcoin. A massive amount of innovative projects are being built on top, SuperNet being the biggest one that you should not be ignoring: http://cointelegraph.com/news/113229/supernet-super-competition-for-fiat

The article describes something more like SuperNet running as a layer under Nxt ... which is bizarre when you consider that a big selling point of Nxt is a decentralised exchange platform. How long before an internet of internets containing internets of blockchains (with sidechains?  Cheesy)

SuperNet is a layer on TOP of nxt. It uses many of Nxt's features such as secure messaging, asset settlement and many other pieces. It also uses features from every other coin and can apply these features to every coin, including bitcoin. InstantDex will support dynamic coin2coin/coin2asset orderbooks which means nxt assets can actually be priced and purchased directly with bitcoin instead of going through the Nxt token. This can also apply to FreeMarket so that goods in the store can be purchased directly with Bitcoin.
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January 02, 2015, 04:06:36 PM
 #19358

Looks like Jeff Berwick is interested as well:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9JT7P9P7kig
Jeff Berwick, really?

All you need to know about that guy, you can find here:

https://www.dollarvigilante.com/blog/2014/8/27/the-good-the-bad-and-the-ugly-on-galts-gulch-chile.html

He reminds me of Zuckerberg, the way he shovels obvious bullshit, thinking he's so smart and his audience is so stupid, that they won't spot the glaring inconsistencies.
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January 02, 2015, 04:20:59 PM
 #19359

http://cointelegraph.com/news/113223/the-nxt-client-just-gave-me-a-braingasm

More importantly... Nxt is a platform, not an altcoin. A massive amount of innovative projects are being built on top, SuperNet being the biggest one that you should not be ignoring: http://cointelegraph.com/news/113229/supernet-super-competition-for-fiat

The article describes something more like SuperNet running as a layer under Nxt ... which is bizarre when you consider that a big selling point of Nxt is a decentralised exchange platform. How long before an internet of internets containing internets of blockchains (with sidechains?  Cheesy)

SuperNet is a layer on TOP of nxt. It uses many of Nxt's features such as secure messaging, asset settlement and many other pieces. It also uses features from every other coin and can apply these features to every coin, including bitcoin. InstantDex will support dynamic coin2coin/coin2asset orderbooks which means nxt assets can actually be priced and purchased directly with bitcoin instead of going through the Nxt token. This can also apply to FreeMarket so that goods in the store can be purchased directly with Bitcoin.

You're right, having a decentralised exchange within a decentralised exchange is a structurally suspect concept.

Vires in numeris
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January 02, 2015, 04:25:03 PM
 #19360

http://cointelegraph.com/news/113223/the-nxt-client-just-gave-me-a-braingasm

More importantly... Nxt is a platform, not an altcoin. A massive amount of innovative projects are being built on top, SuperNet being the biggest one that you should not be ignoring: http://cointelegraph.com/news/113229/supernet-super-competition-for-fiat

The article describes something more like SuperNet running as a layer under Nxt ... which is bizarre when you consider that a big selling point of Nxt is a decentralised exchange platform. How long before an internet of internets containing internets of blockchains (with sidechains?  Cheesy)

SuperNet is a layer on TOP of nxt. It uses many of Nxt's features such as secure messaging, asset settlement and many other pieces. It also uses features from every other coin and can apply these features to every coin, including bitcoin. InstantDex will support dynamic coin2coin/coin2asset orderbooks which means nxt assets can actually be priced and purchased directly with bitcoin instead of going through the Nxt token. This can also apply to FreeMarket so that goods in the store can be purchased directly with Bitcoin.

You're right, having a decentralised exchange within a decentralised exchange is a structurally suspect concept.

There are very important differances. Within Nxt everything happens on the blockchain. It costs 1 nxt to place order, cancel order etc, and you have to wait for a block to confirm. It also only support Nxt/asset pairs. With InstantDex/SuperNet, orders can be placed or cancelled for free - instantly via direct p2p comms. It also supports dynamic order books of any trading pair. Trade settlement then occurs ON blockchain. Atomic cross chain trades will also be supported.
This will destroy centralized exchanges and the need to entrust them with your money. I believe it will one day form a massive pool of liquidity and knock down the current barriers we have with each exchange being it's own separate walled garden.

Again, Nxt is a platform meant to be built on and extended, it is not a "coin". People have begun to realize what kind of innovative power that gives them. SuperNet is only the first "killer app" to come.
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