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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 2013915 times)
darkmind
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January 02, 2015, 01:17:49 PM
 #19341

When btc is as big as gold, it will itself become a benchmark. Hold gold for privacy, hold bitcoin for convenience, no need for fiat in this world. even apple pay is unnecessary.

fiat ain't gonna disappear anytime soon and anyone who thinks it is, well in my opinion they're just fooling themselves

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January 02, 2015, 01:17:59 PM
 #19342

" secured by the nxt blockchain "

Secured by Proof of Stake?

Good luck with that.  You'll need it, esp given NXT's extremely top heavy distribution and previous problems:

http://cointelegraph.com/news/112278/breaking-bter-hacked-50m-nxt-stolen

My bet is on VIA's treechains, secured by Proof of Work in the form of merged scrypt mining.

You know Peter Todd self-admits freely that he hasnt figured out if tree chains work at incentive level yet, its the kernel of an idea that may or may not work - not an implementable spec.  Its based on full node only model, somewhat like the respendable version of my commited tx idea https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=206303.15.  So tree-chains wont have the same scaling properties if they do work, but its an interesting line of exploration.   I'm interested to see if he can make it work, or to add ideas if I can.  I didnt see anything further yet beyond the common inputs (from a 4hr late night IRC chat between Peter & myself) that went into both respendable committed tx and tree-chains.  And as far as that goes committed-tx dont quite work either due to an issue Peter Todd describes as the proof-of-publication issue.

Adam

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January 02, 2015, 01:30:06 PM
 #19343

You know Peter Todd self-admits freely that he hasnt figured out if tree chains work at incentive level yet, its the kernel of an idea that may or may not work - not an implementable spec.

Yes, TCs are in the early research stage.  But even if that idea isn't viable (pun intended), I'd still rather use sidechains secured by POW than POS - especially NXT's particular version.

Thanks for making me elaborate!


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thezerg
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January 02, 2015, 01:47:52 PM
 #19344

... we can let those guys insert an op_code ...

Do you know how many op_codes bitcoin already supports and what they do ?

https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Script

nope.  i'm just going along with BS's new way of presenting this argument.  if we shouldn't prevent the spvp op_code, why should we prevent op_codes submitted by OT or any other alt or Bitcoin 2.0?

Just like with bitcoin we should evaluate these new opcodes on their technical merit not on who submitted them.
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January 02, 2015, 02:24:57 PM
 #19345

Just like with bitcoin we should evaluate these new opcodes on their technical merit not on who submitted them.

Hey Zerg - no fair - too much signal density (signal/byte!) 

This is bitcointalk - where's the trolling, name-calling, ad-hominem or claim of bad faith bias?

cypherdoc - can you do us a favour and redress the karmic balance before the signal gets too high in here?  Gotta rev up the flame war, it was fun!

Adam

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January 02, 2015, 02:47:31 PM
 #19346

Well the term sidechain is sort of fuzzy pre-existing term that means something like a related chain that watches or interacts with a parent or sibling chain.

Thanks for taking the time to answer my stupid questions.  If I can abuse once more of your patience, please consider this scenario:

  Someone, not connected to Blockstream or any other bitcoin entity, creates a new altcoin GreatNewCoin (GNC).

  GNC is basically a clone of bitcoin, with SHA PoW, block rewards etc.

  GNC has a few advantages over BTC, say 10x faster block rate; but is also endorsed by Bill Gates, Oprah Winfrey, Justin Bieber, and the Dalai Lama.

  GNC can be merge-mined with BTC, and occasionally inserts hashes into the BTC blockchain to make itself "secured by the bitcoin blockchain". Still, GNC is not explicitly supported by the bitcoin protocol, and there is no expliciit "transfer" of BTC to it.

  Most bitcoin miners will merge-mine GNC too, since they may win the 50 GNC block reward as well as the 25 BTC reward, without extra work.  Thus GNC, from the start, has the same network hashpower as BTC.

  Various people set up exchanges between BTC, GNC, and national currencies.  People also trade GNC over-the-counter, person-to-person, etc.   BitPay adds GNC as a payment option for all their affiliated merchants.  These ventures do have no explicit support in the GNC (or BTC) protocol and network.

  GNC price rises from 0.10$ to 1$.  Some smart BTC holders sell their BTC for dollars or GNC.  Some dumb GNC holders sell their GNC for dollars of BTC.  The price of GNC keeps rising, while that of BTC starts to drop.

  One Monday at 06:30 am, the market suddenly gets the idea that GNC is going to supersede BTC.  BTC holders rush to sell BTC and buy GNC.  In a few hours, the price of GNC rallies to 1000$, while that of BTC crashes to near zero.

  At 11:30 am, the Winkles wake up to discover that their 200'000 BTC are now worth 2 kopeks and a Somalian shilling.

  Since the BTC rewards and fees are now worthless, most miners stop mining BTC and keep mining GNC only.  Only a few persist, for sentimental reasons. The BTC block rate drops to near zero for months, until the difficulty gets readjusted.

  Then someone, not connected to Blockstream, GNC, or any other bitcoin entity, creates a new altcoin SuperShibaCoin (SSC)....

Summary: doesn't merged mining provide a path for an altcoin to steal bitcoin's network power and market cap, with little investment,  even without any change to the BTC protocol and without any special mechanism to "transfer" BTC to it?

Could some sidechains innovation provide suitable incentives to miners that would prevent this risk?

Academic interest in bitcoin only. Not owner, not trader, very skeptical of its longterm success.
stereotype
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January 02, 2015, 02:49:26 PM
 #19347

....- especially NXT's particular version.

Draft press release of NXT SC version ..... https://nxtforum.org/general-discussion/launching-1-4/msg145133/#msg145133
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January 02, 2015, 02:54:11 PM
 #19348

Well the term sidechain is sort of fuzzy pre-existing term that means something like a related chain that watches or interacts with a parent or sibling chain.

Thanks for taking the time to answer my stupid questions.  If I can abuse once more of your patience, please consider this scenario:

  Someone, not connected to Blockstream or any other bitcoin entity, creates a new altcoin GreatNewCoin (GNC).

  GNC is basically a clone of bitcoin, with SHA PoW, block rewards etc.

  GNC has a few advantages over BTC, say 10x faster block rate; but is also endorsed by Bill Gates, Oprah Winfrey, Justin Bieber, and the Dalai Lama.

  GNC can be merge-mined with BTC, and occasionally inserts hashes into the BTC blockchain to make itself "secured by the bitcoin blockchain". Still, GNC is not explicitly supported by the bitcoin protocol, and there is no expliciit "transfer" of BTC to it.

  Most bitcoin miners will merge-mine GNC too, since they may win the 50 GNC block reward as well as the 25 BTC reward, without extra work.  Thus GNC, from the start, has the same network hashpower as BTC.

  Various people set up exchanges between BTC, GNC, and national currencies.  People also trade GNC over-the-counter, person-to-person, etc.   BitPay adds GNC as a payment option for all their affiliated merchants.  These ventures do have no explicit support in the GNC (or BTC) protocol and network.

  GNC price rises from 0.10$ to 1$.  Some smart BTC holders sell their BTC for dollars or GNC.  Some dumb GNC holders sell their GNC for dollars of BTC.  The price of GNC keeps rising, while that of BTC starts to drop.

  One Monday at 06:30 am, the market suddenly gets the idea that GNC is going to supersede BTC.  BTC holders rush to sell BTC and buy GNC.  In a few hours, the price of GNC rallies to 1000$, while that of BTC crashes to near zero.

  At 11:30 am, the Winkles wake up to discover that their 200'000 BTC are now worth 2 kopeks and a Somalian shilling.

  Since the BTC rewards and fees are now worthless, most miners stop mining BTC and keep mining GNC only.  Only a few persist, for sentimental reasons. The BTC block rate drops to near zero for months, until the difficulty gets readjusted.

  Then someone, not connected to Blockstream, GNC, or any other bitcoin entity, creates a new altcoin SuperShibaCoin (SSC)....

Summary: doesn't merged mining provide a path for an altcoin to steal bitcoin's network power and market cap, with little investment,  even without any change to the BTC protocol and without any special mechanism to "transfer" BTC to it?

Could some sidechains innovation provide suitable incentives to miners that would prevent this risk?


That'd be a great invention.

I mean your scenario is a little bit unrealistic but I think it would be secure.
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January 02, 2015, 03:10:39 PM
 #19349

Summary: doesn't merged mining provide a path for an altcoin to steal bitcoin's network power and market cap, with little investment,  even without any change to the BTC protocol and without any special mechanism to "transfer" BTC to it?
Could some sidechains innovation provide suitable incentives to miners that would prevent this risk?
That'd be a great invention.

By "that" you mean the GNC coin, or a way to protect BTC from having its network stolen via merged mining?

As fas as I can see, such a "bitcoin killer" coin would not need to invent anything, correct?

Academic interest in bitcoin only. Not owner, not trader, very skeptical of its longterm success.
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January 02, 2015, 03:12:29 PM
 #19350

....- especially NXT's particular version.

Draft press release of NXT SC version ..... https://nxtforum.org/general-discussion/launching-1-4/msg145133/#msg145133

The idea is similar to the sidechains development taking place in Bitcoin – with the difference that the additional functionality is all contained within the NXT platform, without the need for an external two-way peg.

Emphasis mine.
It doesn't offer a two-way peg, so what does the SC stand for?

Any significantly advanced cryptocurrency is indistinguishable from Ponzi Tulips.
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January 02, 2015, 03:39:41 PM
 #19351

you guys know that nxt has essentially beaten bitcoin to sidechains .......

Oh boy. This will be interesting.

Cue the @Garzik et al, derision!

I dont want any death threats (you know Jeff Garzik tweeted about getting some after saying something derogatory about NXT and technobabble) but for a long while NXT was closed source, and since it became open, I never took the trouble to try to decipher whether what it claims to do is actually achieved in a decentralised way.  Actually beyond that I dont even know what it claims to do beyond "bitcoin 2.0" like bitshares, and the rest.

If someone works up the energy, be sure to explain what they're talking about to us.

Adam


http://cointelegraph.com/news/113223/the-nxt-client-just-gave-me-a-braingasm

More importantly... Nxt is a platform, not an altcoin. A massive amount of innovative projects are being built on top, SuperNet being the biggest one that you should not be ignoring: http://cointelegraph.com/news/113229/supernet-super-competition-for-fiat

There's also FreeMarket, Lyth, InstantDex, TradeBots, financial privacy and anon tech that destroys coinjoin/mix, FinHive's blockchain AI tech(http://finhive.com/roadmap.html), distributed plugin system(verifiable untamporable web app plugins stored on the blockchain), distributed anon websites and comm(may offer safer access then Tor itself), encrypted messaging without needing an ip address, decentralized file storage via integration with storj, the multigateway, decentralized poker, p2p sprtsbetting/dice/casino, etc... I could go on and on.

Oh and many of these things will also be usable with Bitcoin!
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January 02, 2015, 03:48:33 PM
 #19352

http://cointelegraph.com/news/113223/the-nxt-client-just-gave-me-a-braingasm

More importantly... Nxt is a platform, not an altcoin. A massive amount of innovative projects are being built on top, SuperNet being the biggest one that you should not be ignoring: http://cointelegraph.com/news/113229/supernet-super-competition-for-fiat

There's also FreeMarket, Lyth, InstantDex, TradeBots, financial privacy and anon tech that destroys coinjoin/mix, FinHive's blockchain AI tech(http://finhive.com/roadmap.html), distributed plugin system(verifiable untamporable web app plugins stored on the blockchain), the multigateway, decentralized poker, p2p sprtsbetting/dice/casino, etc... I could go on and on.

Sounds like a lot of people wasting time and BTC to me.

Appears Fred Wilson agrees

http://avc.com/2015/01/what-is-going-to-happen/

8/ The horrible year that bitcoin had in 2014 will be a wakeup call for all stakeholders. Developers will turn their energy from creating the next bitcoin (all the alt stuff) to creating the stack on top of the bitcoin blockchain. Real decentralized applications will start to emerge as the platform matures and entrepreneurial energy is channeled in the right direction.

Appears Andreas agrees:

http://youtu.be/jw28y81s7Wo?t=16m30s

Looks like Jeff Berwick is interested as well:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9JT7P9P7kig

Adam B Lavine and Stephanie Murphy are also very interested. Along with Kristov Atlas, Jason King, Roger Ver, Anthony DiLoria, Elizabeth Ploshay, Shawn @ team storj... and MANY others. 319 contributers and counting.

The SuperNet project is not some dinky toy. It will be a serious force in 2015, I've been saying this for months and people are beginning to wake up. Nxt up 20% over the past 2 days. SuperNet has held very strong over this bear market, that says something. When all the supernet start paying out dividends for it's massively growing list of included projects/services, watch out!
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January 02, 2015, 04:03:28 PM
 #19353

http://cointelegraph.com/news/113223/the-nxt-client-just-gave-me-a-braingasm

More importantly... Nxt is a platform, not an altcoin. A massive amount of innovative projects are being built on top, SuperNet being the biggest one that you should not be ignoring: http://cointelegraph.com/news/113229/supernet-super-competition-for-fiat

The article describes something more like SuperNet running as a layer under Nxt ... which is bizarre when you consider that a big selling point of Nxt is a decentralised exchange platform. How long before an internet of internets containing internets of blockchains (with sidechains?  Cheesy)

Vires in numeris
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January 02, 2015, 04:05:13 PM
 #19354

http://cointelegraph.com/news/113223/the-nxt-client-just-gave-me-a-braingasm

More importantly... Nxt is a platform, not an altcoin. A massive amount of innovative projects are being built on top, SuperNet being the biggest one that you should not be ignoring: http://cointelegraph.com/news/113229/supernet-super-competition-for-fiat

The article describes something more like SuperNet running as a layer under Nxt ... which is bizarre when you consider that a big selling point of Nxt is a decentralised exchange platform. How long before an internet of internets containing internets of blockchains (with sidechains?  Cheesy)

SuperNet is a layer on TOP of nxt. It uses many of Nxt's features such as secure messaging, asset settlement and many other pieces. It also uses features from every other coin and can apply these features to every coin, including bitcoin. InstantDex will support dynamic coin2coin/coin2asset orderbooks which means nxt assets can actually be priced and purchased directly with bitcoin instead of going through the Nxt token. This can also apply to FreeMarket so that goods in the store can be purchased directly with Bitcoin.
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January 02, 2015, 04:06:36 PM
 #19355

Looks like Jeff Berwick is interested as well:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9JT7P9P7kig
Jeff Berwick, really?

All you need to know about that guy, you can find here:

https://www.dollarvigilante.com/blog/2014/8/27/the-good-the-bad-and-the-ugly-on-galts-gulch-chile.html

He reminds me of Zuckerberg, the way he shovels obvious bullshit, thinking he's so smart and his audience is so stupid, that they won't spot the glaring inconsistencies.
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January 02, 2015, 04:20:59 PM
 #19356

http://cointelegraph.com/news/113223/the-nxt-client-just-gave-me-a-braingasm

More importantly... Nxt is a platform, not an altcoin. A massive amount of innovative projects are being built on top, SuperNet being the biggest one that you should not be ignoring: http://cointelegraph.com/news/113229/supernet-super-competition-for-fiat

The article describes something more like SuperNet running as a layer under Nxt ... which is bizarre when you consider that a big selling point of Nxt is a decentralised exchange platform. How long before an internet of internets containing internets of blockchains (with sidechains?  Cheesy)

SuperNet is a layer on TOP of nxt. It uses many of Nxt's features such as secure messaging, asset settlement and many other pieces. It also uses features from every other coin and can apply these features to every coin, including bitcoin. InstantDex will support dynamic coin2coin/coin2asset orderbooks which means nxt assets can actually be priced and purchased directly with bitcoin instead of going through the Nxt token. This can also apply to FreeMarket so that goods in the store can be purchased directly with Bitcoin.

You're right, having a decentralised exchange within a decentralised exchange is a structurally suspect concept.

Vires in numeris
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January 02, 2015, 04:25:03 PM
 #19357

http://cointelegraph.com/news/113223/the-nxt-client-just-gave-me-a-braingasm

More importantly... Nxt is a platform, not an altcoin. A massive amount of innovative projects are being built on top, SuperNet being the biggest one that you should not be ignoring: http://cointelegraph.com/news/113229/supernet-super-competition-for-fiat

The article describes something more like SuperNet running as a layer under Nxt ... which is bizarre when you consider that a big selling point of Nxt is a decentralised exchange platform. How long before an internet of internets containing internets of blockchains (with sidechains?  Cheesy)

SuperNet is a layer on TOP of nxt. It uses many of Nxt's features such as secure messaging, asset settlement and many other pieces. It also uses features from every other coin and can apply these features to every coin, including bitcoin. InstantDex will support dynamic coin2coin/coin2asset orderbooks which means nxt assets can actually be priced and purchased directly with bitcoin instead of going through the Nxt token. This can also apply to FreeMarket so that goods in the store can be purchased directly with Bitcoin.

You're right, having a decentralised exchange within a decentralised exchange is a structurally suspect concept.

There are very important differances. Within Nxt everything happens on the blockchain. It costs 1 nxt to place order, cancel order etc, and you have to wait for a block to confirm. It also only support Nxt/asset pairs. With InstantDex/SuperNet, orders can be placed or cancelled for free - instantly via direct p2p comms. It also supports dynamic order books of any trading pair. Trade settlement then occurs ON blockchain. Atomic cross chain trades will also be supported.
This will destroy centralized exchanges and the need to entrust them with your money. I believe it will one day form a massive pool of liquidity and knock down the current barriers we have with each exchange being it's own separate walled garden.

Again, Nxt is a platform meant to be built on and extended, it is not a "coin". People have begun to realize what kind of innovative power that gives them. SuperNet is only the first "killer app" to come.
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January 02, 2015, 05:17:40 PM
 #19358

someone's liquidating assets.  this is gonna cause real problems for debt based speculators.:



nice intraday reversal with continuation of the short term Dow Theory non-confirmation:



growth? what growth?



continuing flight to black hole shit.  that's not good:



fear is still upon us:

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January 02, 2015, 05:38:14 PM
 #19359

I think it was Gavin's argument that as long as the typical home internet connection in the developed world was sufficient for running a full node at the blocksize limit, then this was sufficient protection against centralization risk.  I think it was this type of logic that he used to come up with the 20 MB limit + 50% / year growth proposal (which my gut tells me is too aggressive).  
This is not a definition of "centralization risk"
...

Haha, I thought you'd call me on my non-answer to your question.

Quote
What is centralization risk? How do we know it exists? How to we measure it so that we can compared two proposed courses of action to predict how they will affect it? How will we know if our estimates were accurate or not after the fact?

Instead of trying to guess unknowable magic numbers, identify the problems which prevent price discovery from functioning and fix those.

The blocksize debate gets muddled if we don't clearly differentiate between the blocksize limit and the actual average blocksize. When you mentioned "identify(ing) the problems which prevent price discovery from functioning and fix(ing) those," I assume you're talking about the price of actual P2P bandwidth/Blockchain space…in other words, things that affect the average blocksize rather than the limits on the blocksize that I was discussing.  When it comes to the blocksize limits, it sounds like you're advocating for nothing at all:

That price can not be discovered as long as there's a production quota tilting the scale.

Gavin's proposal basically removes the production quota you don't like, just not all at once, and in a way that we hope will allow an user with a typical home internet connection to continue to operate a full node.  I don't see how implementing Gavin's scalability proposal hinders price discovery for blockchain space / P2P bandwidth to any significant degree (and you must agree that it would be an improvement when compared to the current 1 MB cap).

Run Bitcoin Unlimited (www.bitcoinunlimited.info)
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January 02, 2015, 05:38:45 PM
 #19360

Just like with bitcoin we should evaluate these new opcodes on their technical merit not on who submitted them.

Hey Zerg - no fair - too much signal density (signal/byte!)  

This is bitcointalk - where's the trolling, name-calling, ad-hominem or claim of bad faith bias?

cypherdoc - can you do us a favour and redress the karmic balance before the signal gets too high in here?  Gotta rev up the flame war, it was fun!

Adam


Adam,

i've been nice to you ever since you entered this thread in a big way.  yet this is about the 4th time you've called me a troll despite the fact i even complimented you on your POW work. don't expect that to continue forever.  instead, perhaps you might want to answer some of the real questions i've posed to you but you have failed to answer:

Adam,

1. in the WP, you mentioned that it is possible that if a SC became popular enough, then Bitcoiners might have to move all their BTC to the SC.  what about those who don't get the memo?  this question is similar to the big debate we had a couple years ago about harvesting apparent "un-used" addresses.  that was obviously shot down real quick in that there is no way to ever be sure exactly that the true owner was dead or had lost the privkey.

2. philosopically, do you see Bitcoin as Money or as an economic "system" for trading assets of all types?

3. what real difference is there in forcing more transparency (as we are now doing with Merkle root audits, regulation, better VC funded exchanges) on 3rd party merchants vs. using SC's where supposedly we will be able to view the source code to ensure no backdoors (only a select few can do that)?  i would argue that the former is no different than the real mechanisms we have today and therefore not experimental or as risky to the degree you're wanting to construct via an unprecedented and untested 2wp.  i say risky b/c i am still not convinced that separating the BTC unit from its native blockchain (MC) is a safe economic thing to do.  its not safe b/c it requires all sorts of new assumptions/requirements such as no bugs in the spvp itself, 100% MM of the SC to be simply "as safe", no bugs or backdoors in the SC code written by all the unscrupulous altcoin devs that you despise of which only a few in the Bitcoin community will be able to vet via inspection of their code.  i expect hundreds of SC's to pop up as a result of your proposal and you yourself said that there are really only a few in the community who could or would take the time to vet potentially malicious code.  given this proliferation, if i'm right, how can honest devs ever keep up with this?

4. given that most of the real world already views a fixed supply of any currency as a liability, what feedback effects do you think a continuous destruction of scBTC from failed SC's will have on Bitcoin itself?  please just don't say "it will only make our BTC go up!"  i think the answer needs to acknowledge that it might be that the market views that negatively as a hopeless downward spiraling deflationary currency that continuously damages the merchant economy by encouraging hoarding.  in this sense, i am drawing parallels to gold being a fairly fixed supply that for the most part nevers decreases.

will you sell SC's to govt's if asked?

Adam, how can you possibly say you're not "for-profit" when in fact that is precisely what Blockstream is?  do you seriously expect us to believe that Reid Hoffman, et al invested $21M while not expecting at least a 10x return on their investment?

you still didn't answer me as to why we should "trust" you and Blockstream when it goes against the very ethos of what Bitcoin is all about.

i posted above that there are several venture funds that have invested.  how can they not want the std 10x return of their investment? those fund constituents do not just represent the viewpoint of their founder.



btw, you show your bias when you nitpick my trivial comment to tvbcof here w/o even acknowledging the disgusting, immature video he put up.  i suggest it's b/c he supports your view:

you're still that little dog who nips at my trouser bottoms.

I thought you said you didnt do ad-hominems to troll and fan reaction?  Just a few posts back too.  

Decorum!

Stuff like that is why bitcointroll.org is redirecting here.  Also it pushes out more tech focussed people who want some civility and dont have the USENET flame war developed rhinoceros hide and egos to say "fuck you too" and keep talking.

What the tvbcof said seemed pretty reasoned to me, and if you read it neutrally, not to be calling Gavin names, just talking about hypothetical conflicts of interest, independence etc.  

I share his view about balance of power helping also, eg you can see that Microsoft & Apple are both pretty world domination evil corporations.  And yet the growth of apple's market penetration of OSX has weakened eithers ability to execute on their rent-seeking actions.  Thats a pretty conventional understanding of the real-world.

Adam

Cypherdoc encounters Coinlock on Reddit:





now that's trolling!
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