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Question: Will you support Gavin's new block size limit hard fork of 8MB by January 1, 2016 then doubling every 2 years?
1.  yes
2.  no

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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 1903083 times)
smooth
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January 01, 2015, 11:35:08 PM
 #19341

Btw random question, I was meaning to ask with aethereum?  Would a sidechain be a better way to make the point to ethereum that their value isnt in the feature that can be forked, but in cryptocurrencies network effect.  ps I thought aethereum was awesome Smiley except that if I recall it would float from bitcoin so not by quite bitcoin denominated.  Bitcoin users had a perpetual right to claim their share of the coins right?

There was some discussion about the practical compromises of a perpetual right vs a limited (but not short) term right.

It is an interesting distinction, though, to compare the one-time right to redeem (spinoff) vs a perpetual right to bidirectionally convert (side chain).

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January 01, 2015, 11:40:37 PM
 #19342

Other things also snarks can do magical things (full node validation and low bandwidth), sharding like Rusty Russel is exploring with pettycoin (its not an alt, its an approach to sharding bitcoin).

Rusty Russell? The creator of iptables/netfilter?

Edit: a brief search confirmed we have another main linux kernel developer on board

Ayup the one and same.  He has a video up about pettycoin chain sharding https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzst_gChOr8.

btw that is a kind of (non-pegged) sidechain and you hear him talking about a gateway or federated gateway.  That is like a federated peg.  (Yeah he knows its related, he's hanging out on #bitcoin-wizards and discussing pettycoin design with GMaxwell and others).

(Pettycoin is a micropayment network bitcoin auxiliary chain aiming at scaling to 100k tx/sec.)

Adam

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January 01, 2015, 11:48:26 PM
 #19343

i have a suggestion, out of fairness sake.  why don't we allow JR & ft, along with any other wanton altcoin/Bitcoin 2.0 dev, to insert their own highly specific op_code function into Bitcoin source code that benefits their own business model?  as long as it's open source, it should be fine, right?  and we shouldn't care if they are a for-profit, let alone nefarious, business; ppl can just ignore them.

There we go, thats the cypherpdoc we know Smiley  But seriously I wrote several hundred lines on this topic, so it'd be helpful if you have something specific you can point about what i've said that you dont find convincing, it'll make it easier for me to comment.

I wrote a bit about why the op_spv is not proprietary or specific to blockstream and that idea existed before blockstream the company existed.  Feel free to pick it apart or disagree with something specific, here are some quotes and links from this thread:

Quote from: adam3us link=https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=68655.msg9988763#msg9988763
Its not our softfork - its a softfork to enable a generic extension mechanism.  We have no monopoly (and wouldnt want one) on use of the op code.  Our only defence is meritocracy - if we build better, more secure sidechains and people prefer to use them.  We wont be getting the fees off the sidechain either because those go to miners.  If we have the technical edge and people use our stuff that seems sort of fair enough to me.

(and the rest of that post follow the link).

Quote from: adam3us link=https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=68655.msg9991720#msg9991720
Sidechains are not a proprietary technology.  Everything is FOSS, open IP.  [...]

Its not our softfork - its a softfork to enable a generic extension mechanism.  We have no monopoly (and wouldnt want one) on use of the op code.  Our only defence is meritocracy - if we build better, more secure sidechains and people prefer to use them.  We wont be getting the fees off the sidechain either because those go to miners.  If we have the technical edge and people use our stuff that seems sort of fair enough to me.  [...]

Sidechains are just a mechanism to extend bitcoin.  The interesting thing is the extension not the chain.  If a better way to do it materialises great.  If some sidechain innovations are so cool and well validated from $1b resting on them for a year that it allows bitcoin core to merge them fantastic.  Actually Pieter Wuille views that as the best way to view the utility of sidechains, to enable longer and live validation of things that could then go into bitcoin where that'd be difficult to impossible to gain that confidence on directly.

There can also however be one-size fits-all limits.  Some extensions are mutually incompatible, or too risky though interesting (eg snark contracts, zerocash) unless a way to contain the risk in chain is found.  Also you can get some new scaling possibilities by having chains with different blocksizes.  Its more decentralised and safer to have a small bitcoin main block and a medium sized sidechain block, than introduce a large main bitcoin block as there is an escape route and choice.  You can within limits get your cake and eat it.

and

Quote from: adam3us link=https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=68655.msg9994182#msg9994182
Sidechains may also be good for that - an escape valve - people who want to do crazy stuff, can go do it in a sidechain, that no one (who cares about bitcoin ethos features) would use.  Vs try to coerce legally or otherwise developers into subverting bitcoin itself at its core where there's no choice left, and bitcoin risks destruction.

and

Quote from: adam3us link=https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=68655.msg9994308#msg9994308
For conflict freedom to occur (and I think its an interesting and useful objective) bitcoin perhaps needs to be simplified and frozen, maybe moved to a formally provable specification rather than code as definition.  Soft-forks could be prevented by consensus rule if we were convinced of perfect correctness. 

Hard-forks are harder to foist on people because they require a near absolute majority whereas soft-forks are a bit more miner influenceable.

If we had an extension mechanism that doesnt touch core once setup, the core becomes that bit closer to freezable & formal specifiable refactor becoming possible.  If we have the possibility for live-betas we are more likely to be able to get to formal specification as definition.  (Thats a hard-fork for sure).

Another aspect of conflict freedom (other than freezing and forcing change to be hard-fork) is to enable permissionless innovation - then there's no conflict, people who want to try things can go try them without lobbying for changes to bitcoin.  Also good.

and

Quote from: adam3us link=https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=68655.msg9998261#msg9998261
I think the bigger picture though is its premature - we have not yet released code, nor BIP draft for community discussion and picking apart and redesigning etc before there is something to merge mine.  Its also useful (maybe you said it yourself also I think) for a federated peg to operate for a while in parallel with that open design discussion for people to see how it works.  You can view the federated peg as a protocol adaptor - there can still be mining occuring on the sidechain with the federated peg, just the return peg is translated into a multisig for bitcoin by the federation servers.

After that if the community can settle on a op-code for extensibility everyone is happy with people including us can try to stand up a few sidechains.  If no one likes them then they wont get mined.  So as you can see sidechains and the op_spv really depend on community and economic majority approval, and thats a good thing.

and

Quote from: adam3us link=https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=68655.msg10001181#msg10001181
I dont think one can characterise the op_spv is to the disadvantage of blockstream competitors.  Its an op code, anyone can use it to make sidechains or other things. 

Other things: you can also use the op_spv opcode to enhance security and efficiency for SPV clients like smartphone wallets completely separately from sidechains.  And to fast catchup headers also, the compact SPV proof is work-preserving.

If for example OpenTransactions sees a use for it, or ethereum wants to switch out ethers for bitcoin (i imagine the developers are attached to their premine for now) but perhaps Mastercoin or something thats market cap is falling, seeing less use and the ICO people probably mostly dumped by now (if thats a fair characterisation, dont follow it closely) maybe they might want to migrate to a sidechain, thats all expected and good.  Permisionless innovation is the point of sidechains.  You could even one-way peg the remaining mastercoins into a sidechain to allow their residual tradability.

If you mean it allows bitcoin to more easily incorporate features, well most alts dont really have features, or not meaningful or useful/non-broken ones, but there are some feature coins and bitcoin 2.0ish coins that do.  I dont see how extending bitcoin is unfair - they're all leeching off and copying bitcoin, which was the actual innovation - why cant bitcoin take little bits of innovation back too?

and

Quote from: adam3us link=https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=68655.msg10001937#msg10001937
Another way to look at sidechains btw is that a federated peg is a multi-sig (with modest parameters eg 5 of 10 and some trustworthy security competent bitcoin interested businesses) and a SPV peg is a bigger federated peg with a 5000 of 10000 multisig with dynamic membership (ie whoever is mining the chain right now).  The spv peg op_code is an opcode to understand those dynamic membership multisigs.  The dynamic membership multi sigs (DMMS for short) are written about in the sidechain white paper http://www.blockstream.com/sidechains.pdf and are a different way to look at bitcoin mining, though its actually the same thing.

You can also combine DMMS sigs with regular multisigs, its just an op code so you can program with it.  eg IF ( 0.5*DMMS + 0.5*multisig(5,10) ) THEN spend coin.  Or IF ( hashrate > 75% AND DMMS ) OR ( hashrate <= 75% AND multisig(5,10) ) THEN spend coin can react to hashrate drops.  Different people could even use different peg rules on the same chain depending on their security tradoff preferences.

I dont see that as some how evil or dangerous relating to offchain transactions (we've seen them cause system shocks mtgox etc) or federated pegs or voting pools (then you are depending on the 5 of 10 of their security etc its better but its still non-zero risk) ... its just the next evolution in that direction - more decentralised, more things enforced by the network.  For example read Nick Szabo's recent blog post about fiduciary code http://unenumerated.blogspot.com/2014/12/the-dawn-of-trustworthy-computing.html what do you think he's talking about?

Adam

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January 01, 2015, 11:53:01 PM
 #19344

i mean, look, we have unencumbered BTC units traveling freely on an ultra secure blockchain whose value involves no counterparty and no other asset.

now, you're asking us to accept an unprecedented change to the protocol which will allow BTC units to intermingle with all sorts of assets limited only by our imaginations all while traveling on a less secure SC.  

We havent actually proposed anything concrete yet, but we expect to with code and a BIP for a op code to do something that is nearly or maybe actually possible already just less efficiently.

The alternative is offchain transactions which are impossible to stop, constitute probably 90% of bitcoin transactions, and remove fees from bitcoin network, and result in an ongoing economic impact when exchanges and other startups with custody of other peoples bitcoins get hacked, get "hacked" or steal them, get them frozen, deleted by accident etc.

That seems like a step forward to me.  Its an op_code.  We dont "own" the op code.  Anyone can use it to write any scripts they can cook up, to do with audit of sidechains or other users they may find.

Adam

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January 02, 2015, 12:01:46 AM
 #19345

i have a suggestion, out of fairness sake.  why don't we allow JR & ft, along with any other wanton altcoin/Bitcoin 2.0 dev, to insert their own highly specific op_code function into Bitcoin source code that benefits their own business model?  as long as it's open source, it should be fine, right?  and we shouldn't care if they are a for-profit, let alone nefarious, business; ppl can just ignore them.

There we go, thats the cypherpdoc we know Smiley 

actually, i'm quite serious.  let me rephrase the exact same concept.  we can let those guys insert an op_code of their choice which will be open source.  it will therefore be usable by anyone and not owned by them.  ppl will be free to ignore it by choice, therefore it can cause no harm.  just like your spvp.  why would you want to "prevent" them from doing that?
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January 02, 2015, 12:05:27 AM
 #19346

... we can let those guys insert an op_code ...

Do you know how many op_codes bitcoin already supports and what they do ?

https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Script
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January 02, 2015, 12:10:49 AM
 #19347

... we can let those guys insert an op_code ...

Do you know how many op_codes bitcoin already supports and what they do ?

https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Script

nope.  i'm just going along with BS's new way of presenting this argument.  if we shouldn't prevent the spvp op_code, why should we prevent op_codes submitted by OT or any other alt or Bitcoin 2.0?
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January 02, 2015, 12:17:14 AM
 #19348

i have a suggestion, out of fairness sake.  why don't we allow JR & ft, along with any other wanton altcoin/Bitcoin 2.0 dev, to insert their own highly specific op_code function into Bitcoin source code that benefits their own business model?  as long as it's open source, it should be fine, right?  and we shouldn't care if they are a for-profit, let alone nefarious, business; ppl can just ignore them.

There we go, thats the cypherpdoc we know Smiley 

actually, i'm quite serious.  let me rephrase the exact same concept.  we can let those guys insert an op_code of their choice which will be open source.  it will therefore be usable by anyone and not owned by them.  ppl will be free to ignore it by choice, therefore it can cause no harm.  just like your spvp.  why would you want to "prevent" them from doing that?

I wouldnt work to prevent it I'd evaluate whether it was a good idea or not.  Same as anyone else involved with bitcoin development, so it depends on the value & risks.  Wanna get specific?  op_snark or op_weil-pair support so someone can implement zerocash right in bitcoin?  What do you think?  In or too risky?  (I have a detailed rationale as ecash crypto is my thing, but I'll let you go first:)

There is scarce development and QA bandwidth though, and risk from complexity.

One advantage of sidechains is its a sort of meta-opcode - when you have it you can do nearly anything else, eg you can do op_snark without #including however many kloc of code for a snark library into bitcoind.

As GMaxwell said when I expressed on #bitcoin-wizards right after he connected the dots between his previous snark based covenant idea/discussion and my one-way peg idea to explain two-way pegs, I said "but would that be practical to put into bitcoin given the whole point of pegs is to avoid needing to make changes" and his reply as "well maybe, because its the one change to rule them all".  So I think meta-op_codes have any an extra argument going for them.

(I didnt originally consider two-way pegs because I assumed that you need to find a way that doesnt involve changes, as the rate of pace of change due to risk is the problem I was trying to fix, one-way pegs can do somethings including live-betas but with higher risk of brown-out).  one-way pegs explained here: https://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development%40lists.sourceforge.net/msg02944.html

Adam

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January 02, 2015, 12:18:35 AM
 #19349

... we can let those guys insert an op_code ...

Do you know how many op_codes bitcoin already supports and what they do ?

https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Script

nope.  i'm just going along with BS's new way of presenting this argument.  if we shouldn't prevent the spvp op_code, why should we prevent op_codes submitted by OT or any other alt or Bitcoin 2.0?

It is possible to write LONG script. This script will be hard to understand by human. (it will even hard to understand by programmer) .. and we can replace this LONG UNREADABLE script with single opcode "op_spvproof_verify" => everybody can understand and see what that transaction means.
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January 02, 2015, 12:38:59 AM
 #19350

both you guys are missing the point.

Adam, (& nullc over on Reddit) you have been expressing this conflict as me "preventing" you from giving Bitcoiners a choice to use an op_code that you believe will be helpful to us all.  the tech doesn't matter with this line of reasoning as you've tried to turn this into an ethical or fairness issue under the principle of FOSS.  fine.

by that same logic, you shouldn't prevent an alt or Bitcoin 2.0 that might want to do the same thing you want to do.  as long as other devs are free to copy or utilize an alts op_code, then we should also allow its insertion into the Bitcoin source code alongside your spvp.  it shouldn't hurt b/c Bitcoiners are free to ignore the implications as they can simply inspect the code for any bugs or malware.

or, as i suspect is what is going on here since you are a for-profit, your sense of fairness is selective.
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January 02, 2015, 12:41:55 AM
 #19351

zing*

Forgive my petulance and oft-times, I fear, ill-founded criticisms, and forgive me that I have, by this time, made your eyes and head ache with my long letter. But I cannot forgo hastily the pleasure and pride of thus conversing with you.
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January 02, 2015, 01:47:42 AM
 #19352


No. He said that EVERYTHING approaches zero profitability in a free market. Your hypothesis then is it's not worth doing anything in life because everything is worthless.

I was just trying to gauge where Justus's head was at.  Sometime's it's hard to tell with his type.  Adam says he's OK, but I'm not so sure.  His response tells me that he's probably mostly just another pumper.

Oh well...old stackers like the doc and I, if we are being honest with ourselves, recognize that we owe a lot to the pumpers and the 'principled Libertarian' shtick is hands-down the most effective in Bitcoinland for whatever reason.  Justus rocks here.

Hey J-man:  You pump 'em and I'll dump 'em homey.

The cool thing is that someone else is paying him at least enough to keep his pantry stocked with Top-Ramen, though with Monetas/Concentric/whatever it seems quite possible that it may be me in one of those 'your tax dollars at work' type of deals.


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January 02, 2015, 01:51:10 AM
 #19353


No. He said that EVERYTHING approaches zero profitability in a free market. Your hypothesis then is it's not worth doing anything in life because everything is worthless.

I was just trying to gauge where Justus's head was at.  Sometime's it's hard to tell with his type.  Adam says he's OK, but I'm not so sure.  His response tells me that he's probably mostly just another pumper.

Oh well...old stackers like the doc and I, if we are being honest with ourselves, recognize that we owe a lot to the pumpers and the 'principled Libertarian' shtick is hands-down the most effective in Bitcoinland for whatever reason.  Justus rocks here.

Hey J-man:  You pump 'em and I'll dump 'em homey.

The cool thing is that someone else is paying him at least enough to keep his pantry stocked with Top-Ramen, though with Monetas/Concentric/whatever it seems quite possible that it may be me in one of those 'your tax dollars at work' type of deals.


I will vouch for Justus. I know him personally and we've had many discussions. He is a white hat. He is much younger than me and I don't agree with his politics, but every generation must make their own path.

Any significantly advanced cryptocurrency is indistinguishable from Ponzi Tulips.
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January 02, 2015, 03:35:31 AM
 #19354

Bitcoins killer app is SOV.

If we allow an offramp from MC to SC's, I think that goes away.
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January 02, 2015, 03:46:08 AM
 #19355

Bitcoins killer app is SOV.

If we allow an offramp from MC to SC's, I think that goes away.
I think the whole SC thing is a red herring. If they can't do it without "social structures" then it's not Bitcoin. OTOH, the social structure crowd has plenty of space for developing mining pool "social structures" that incentives decentralization through Delegated 'insert-term-here' technology.

Any significantly advanced cryptocurrency is indistinguishable from Ponzi Tulips.
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January 02, 2015, 04:07:17 AM
 #19356

Bitcoins killer app is SOV.

If we allow an offramp from MC to SC's, I think that goes away.
I think the whole SC thing is a red herring. If they can't do it without "social structures" then it's not Bitcoin. OTOH, the social structure crowd has plenty of space for developing mining pool "social structures" that incentives decentralization through Delegated 'insert-term-here' technology.

I think you mean Trojan Horse.

Someone is going to lose alot of money. In fact, most people investing in cryptocurrencies are going to lose money. That's how bull markets are.

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January 02, 2015, 04:14:06 AM
 #19357

Bitcoins killer app is SOV.

If we allow an offramp from MC to SC's, I think that goes away.
I think the whole SC thing is a red herring. If they can't do it without "social structures" then it's not Bitcoin. OTOH, the social structure crowd has plenty of space for developing mining pool "social structures" that incentives decentralization through Delegated 'insert-term-here' technology.

I think you mean Trojan Horse.

Someone is going to lose alot of money. In fact, most people investing in cryptocurrencies are going to lose money. That's how bull markets are.



i mean, we can't bring everyone with us.  it wouldn't be fair.
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January 02, 2015, 04:40:21 AM
 #19358

Bitcoins killer app is SOV.

If we allow an offramp from MC to SC's, I think that goes away.
I think the whole SC thing is a red herring. If they can't do it without "social structures" then it's not Bitcoin. OTOH, the social structure crowd has plenty of space for developing mining pool "social structures" that incentives decentralization through Delegated 'insert-term-here' technology.

I think you mean Trojan Horse.

Someone is going to lose alot of money. In fact, most people investing in cryptocurrencies are going to lose money. That's how bull markets are.



i mean, we can't bring everyone with us.  it wouldn't be fair.
We'll see if/when SCs are no longer vaporware. Perhaps it will only be the VCs and IPO investors that lose money.

Any significantly advanced cryptocurrency is indistinguishable from Ponzi Tulips.
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January 02, 2015, 04:55:59 AM
 #19359


Someone is going to lose alot of money. In fact, most people investing in cryptocurrencies are going to lose money. That's how bull markets are.

And how pump-n-dumps are.  Just sayin'


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January 02, 2015, 09:29:15 AM
 #19360

Other things also snarks can do magical things (full node validation and low bandwidth), sharding like Rusty Russel is exploring with pettycoin (its not an alt, its an approach to sharding bitcoin).

Rusty Russell? The creator of iptables/netfilter?

Edit: a brief search confirmed we have another main linux kernel developer on board

Ayup the one and same.  He has a video up about pettycoin chain sharding https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzst_gChOr8.

btw that is a kind of (non-pegged) sidechain and you hear him talking about a gateway or federated gateway.  That is like a federated peg.  (Yeah he knows its related, he's hanging out on #bitcoin-wizards and discussing pettycoin design with GMaxwell and others).

(Pettycoin is a micropayment network bitcoin auxiliary chain aiming at scaling to 100k tx/sec.)

Adam


Thanks for the info Adam, appreciated. I will have a look.

Somehow it seems that ex/still active kernel hackers are attracted to bitcoin world. Actually we have three of them involved (that I'm aware of): Garzik, Kolivas and now Russell. All of them did a lot of good stuff in the kernel sphere.

Bitcoin is a participatory system which ought to respect the right of self determinism of all of its users - Gregory Maxwell.
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