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Question: Will you support Gavin's new block size limit hard fork of 8MB by January 1, 2016 then doubling every 2 years?
1.  yes
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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 2013835 times)
JorgeStolfi
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January 08, 2015, 07:11:08 PM
 #19901

Just curious if you've checked out other protocols, POS, POI, Ripple?  Thoughts?

Know nothing about PoS or PoI (or PoB), sorry.

My understanding of Ripple is that it is two things:

* The Ripple Network is a system for interbank settlements that uses some cryptocoin technology, but is centrally managed by RippleLabs and/or a bank consortium;

* The Ripple Coin (XRP) is a cryptocurrency, also managed by RippleLabs.  The coin could be used by the Ripple Network as an intermediate step when converting between two minor currencies, but the same role could be performed by a major currency such as UDS or EUR.  Success of the Network does not imply success of the coin, and vice-versa.

Is this understanding correct?
 

Academic interest in bitcoin only. Not owner, not trader, very skeptical of its longterm success.
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January 08, 2015, 07:52:04 PM
 #19902


oil?  who the hell needs oil, ...

I do.  I bought another couple hundred gallons yesterday.  That should last me a year or two depending on how much I use my excavator (the one that Bitcoin bought Smiley )



I will sell a l48 kubota hoe that was bought with Bitcoin for Bitcoin.   Grin
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January 08, 2015, 07:53:20 PM
 #19903

so you prefer to believe the fantasy

If it is a fantasy, then the bet is free money to you.

Put up or shut up.

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January 08, 2015, 08:05:50 PM
 #19904

You meant 12.5 rebelBTC per block.  (It is the ex-bitcoin miners who will earn 25 cartelBTC per block.)  But it doesn't matter.

To be clear I was simplifying the model by ignoring the block having, since that really isn't important. A cartel that can hard fork to double its rewards after a block having can hard fork to double its rewards any other time. This just makes the discussion a bit simpler.

Quote
Well, the cartel will want to be the first in that line [to mine a modified protocol].

There is no cartel on the Red Button hard forked protocol. Anyone has equal access to the ability to mine. The fact that someone was a cartel previously does not grant any vested status in the future. Deepbit, for example, has no greater ability to show up today and be a mining cartel than you or I do.

I understand you meant cloud computing. So did I. Go back and reread what I wrote.

Cloud computing would be used to mine honestly, at first, and then would be both uncompetitive and not large enough to matter. There is not 75-150 MW of available cloud computing capacity, particularly if an algorithm is readily minable on GPUs, as most would be. GPU cloud mining capacity is extremely limited, CPU capacity is somewhat limited. But are extremely expensive, especially when in high demand.

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January 08, 2015, 08:07:08 PM
 #19905

oil?  who the hell needs oil, let alone natgas?:



does this mean oil has failed?


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January 08, 2015, 08:14:19 PM
 #19906

does this mean oil has failed?

The difference is that you need oil and probably 9/10 families have at least 1 thing that runs on oil (or gas made from it), be it a car, a motorcycle, a pump, lawn mower or a generator.
Is there anything physical that would cease to work if bitcoin disappeared? The only thing I can think of is mining hardware.

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January 08, 2015, 08:19:52 PM
 #19907

does this mean oil has failed?

The difference is that you need oil and probably 9/10 families have at least 1 thing that runs on oil (or gas made from it), be it a car, a motorcycle, a pump, lawn mower or a generator.

Perhaps this is part of the problem with oil (though in the very short term only a small part). Battery powered substitutes for many of those devices are becoming more readily available, practical, and cost effective all the time.

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January 08, 2015, 08:33:59 PM
 #19908

i have a thought experiment on SC's.  Adam, if you're still out there, i would appreciate your thoughts:

the goal is to theoretically construct a SC that is equal in as many respects to the MC as possible and then predict the vulnerabilities of each.  for this, i am going to invoke 2 of the marketing tactics that the SC proponents have claimed to be advantages and givens, are in fact true.

1.  that of a firewall btwn the SC and MC that "protects" the MC from any failures or fraud on the SC.
2.  that the destruction of scBTC can only result in an increase in the price of BTC on MC.

we will use the op_spv as the model along with its 2 day 2wp clearing mechanism.  50% of all BTC will be on the MC and the other 50% BTC (scBTC) will be on the SC.  there is perfect 100% MM'ing of the SC.  the fiat exchange prices are equal.  the only apparent difference is that the SC has an innovation beyond the capability of Bitcoin which attracted usage in the first place.  

is this an equilibrium situation that is stable?  imo, no.

what has become clear over the last 6 yrs of Bitcoin mining is that even when an individual mining pool has gained close to or even exceeded the 51% hashing market share required to elicit a 51% attack, they have refused to do so. we have seen 3 examples of this:  Deepbit, BTCGuild, and Ghash.io.  i have explained this somewhat unexpected behavior (to some) in terms of the Nash Equilibrium which states that it would be in the attackers unfavorable self interest to attack the MC in that the immediate result would be to kill confidence in Bitcoin along with the price.  such a strategy would even likely be unprofitable as any short position or sale of stolen Bitcoin would be unavailable as exchanges would halt the attackers ability to cash out in any meaningful size on such a scheme.  also, the attackers would sacrifice the millions or so in hardware they were forced to expend initially, not to mention the time and labor required to set up such an operation.  so, in this sense, there is a severe if not catastrophic negative economic consequence to attacking the MC. this is nothing new to those of us who've been around for a while.

thus, i submit over the long run that in the theoretical construct made above with a SC involved, the MC would still not be attacked given the above game theory as it would amount to self destruction.  what about the SC?  the attacking miner, or coalition of miners, know that there is a firewall that will prevent any negative feedback effects back to the MC, at least, in terms of the protocol functioning.  and they will believe any attack that results in destruction of scBTC will only drive up the price of BTC on the MC.  there will be no negative economic consequences for the attack on the SC that feedback to the MC.  thus, i submit an attack is an inevitable consequence.  and this would be the lower bound expectation of benefit for the attackers.  the upper bound would include other economic inducements which aren't necessary to make my argument.  those being:  

1.  attackers could place a large fiat short position in place on a derivatives exchange to benefit from a scBTC price crash from an all out SC failure.
2.  they could try to immediately sell stolen scBTC.  
3.  they could be attackers who were not allowed to mine the SC because of illegality enforced by its gvt and thus benefit by destruction of this competing SC.

but my point is not to compare the upper bound economic benefits of financial gain of such an attack.  it is simply to illustrate that the lower bound minimal benefit or expectation, is that there are no negative economic consequences for the attackers and is enough, by itself, to expect an eventual attack.  one could try to argue that a coalition of miners would not want to destroy 50% of their tx fee volume on the SC.  but to this, i would say that, at the very least, the 3 above economic inducements would be enough to neutralize this argument.  

i believe this concept of economic self preservation allows us to compare the economic viability of SC's of tomorrow to the overwhelming evidence that makes a 51% attack on the MC an extremely low risk event today: a reluctance to destroy one's own business or seed corn.

have at it.
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January 08, 2015, 08:39:02 PM
 #19909

Well, the cartel will want to be the first in that line [to mine a modified protocol].

There is no cartel on the Red Button hard forked protocol. Anyone has equal access to the ability to mine. The fact that someone was a cartel previously does not grant any vested status in the future. Deepbit, for example, has no greater ability to show up today and be a mining cartel than you or I do.

Come on, you know that "the cartel" there means "the cartel of old-chain miners who want to force a change in the block schedule".  It is not "a cartel of rebel-chain miners".  

Assuming that "the cartel" wants to kill the value of the rebel chain, it will try to put enough CPU power working on the rebel chain to jam it.  That should not be hard at first, because the rebels and opportunistic miners will not all start mining all at once.  If the cartel acts quickly, then the rebels who try to use or mine the rebel chain will be frustrated, and (so the cartel hopes) they will give up before others join the rebellion.

Note that, while this struggle is going on in the rebel chain, the cartel's chain (with old protocol except for halving) will operate normally all the time for everybody who upgrades to it, except perhaps for some temporary variation in the block rate.

Academic interest in bitcoin only. Not owner, not trader, very skeptical of its longterm success.
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January 08, 2015, 08:40:18 PM
 #19910

Well, the cartel will want to be the first in that line [to mine a modified protocol].

There is no cartel on the Red Button hard forked protocol. Anyone has equal access to the ability to mine. The fact that someone was a cartel previously does not grant any vested status in the future. Deepbit, for example, has no greater ability to show up today and be a mining cartel than you or I do.

Come on, you know that "the cartel" there means "the cartel of old-chain miners who want to force a change in the block schedule".  It is not "a cartel of rebel-chain miners". 

Yes, and what I'm saying is there is no cartel. A cartel implies there is some barrier to entry (for example by limited capacity of equipment). There is none here; everyone can mine, and in a protocol that hasn't reached the stage of specialized hardware, the startup costs are low and entry is very rapid. A huge amount of mining would come online within a day or two, and remember your proposal is for all this to be announced a month ahead, so plenty of time to get ready.
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January 08, 2015, 08:57:56 PM
 #19911

high octane anti-trollery
http://btctheory.com/2015/01/08/bitcoins-people-problem/
Quote
Stupidity is a poor excuse for failing to understand how technology and money works, but alas, we are in a world ran by a union of morons, commanded by sociopathic capitalists and politicians. Those who believe in bitcoin’s demise are the same sniveling cowards who cannot see past their own avarice and callowness to ever accomplish something great–they simply want to punch the clown each day, satisfied at the safety of being commanded by another. They are cowards happy to obey governments and laws that can only be defined as illegal and tyrannical.

These are the fools who would plead that the bitcoin’s cause can never succeed; not understanding the purpose is the struggle against the system as it is. The fools bitch of being ripped off by banks, and then offer hollow stares when told of what bitcoin can do. They demand to be told how bitcoin works, without a damn clue how fiat works. The only problem that bitcoin has is that stupid people do not want to be free and independent–they demand to be ruled and governed, and to have you dragged down with their sad little boat of life.

These clowns tell me of how pleasurable life is on their knees, and how they are allowed so many of the scraps from the table of Empire! That a life of looking towards the ground is not only a great pleasure, but one of deep honor. These people love their duty to their God of the state. They will offer any excuse to justify the needs of their master, any reason to qualify the barbarism they execute daily. There is nothing that the state can do that the slaves cannot create a justification for. If these are the very idiots that we must rely upon to help us create our change, I must animate the seriousness of the dilemma in which we have been caught. We shall never succeed if we believe these people will welcome the liberation from Plato’s Cave.

Quote
I insist that it is not the handful of parasites [of capitalism and the state], but the mass itself is responsible for this horrible state of affairs. It clings to its masters, loves the whip, and is the first to cry Crucify! the moment a protesting voice is raised against the sacredness of capitalistic authority or any other decayed institution.

Love the passion there, will have to follow his blog. Overall his thesis is accurate IMHO, the majority prefers the safety of a stable and top down static system, even if that system robs them blind of their labor and liberty. This has been true across cultures and time. Exceptional societies were the few that rejected this and relied on self reliance and responsibility of the individual. I've read about them, but have never seen one in my lifetime. This is the real hurdle to bitcoin's adoption, luckily we have human greed of a handful working in our favor...
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January 08, 2015, 09:02:19 PM
 #19912

There is no cartel on the Red Button hard forked protocol. Anyone has equal access to the ability to mine. The fact that someone was a cartel previously does not grant any vested status in the future. Deepbit, for example, has no greater ability to show up today and be a mining cartel than you or I do.
Come on, you know that "the cartel" there means "the cartel of old-chain miners who want to force a change in the block schedule".  It is not "a cartel of rebel-chain miners". 
Yes, and what I'm saying is there is no cartel. A cartel implies there is some barrier to entry (for example by limited capacity of equipment). There is none here; everyone can mine.

And, again, I never said that they would be a cartel of rebel-chain miners.  They would still be a cartel of miners of the old chain and the cartel chain.  In fact they would have 100% of the active ASIC miners on their side, because the old chain miners would have no other viable option except join them.

Academic interest in bitcoin only. Not owner, not trader, very skeptical of its longterm success.
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January 08, 2015, 09:06:10 PM
 #19913

Yes, and what I'm saying is there is no cartel. A cartel implies there is some barrier to entry (for example by limited capacity of equipment). There is none here; everyone can mine, and in a protocol that hasn't reached the stage of specialized hardware, the startup costs are low and entry is very rapid. A huge amount of mining would come online within a day or two, and remember your proposal is for all this to be announced a month ahead, so plenty of time to get ready.

You are making a valiant effort smooth, but it is not one you are going to win with this one. He make the same argument with me, in that a mining cartel could "block" all transactions they want. He refused to acknowledge that a non-conforming cartel would simply be removed from the pool, and the network would continue with the remain honest miners. He refuses to understand that the network will continue as long as there are some remaining honest miners to generate blocks.

I refuse to believe that he can not understand this, and instead believe he is simply trying out and testing new FUD against bitcoin here. Some FUD is easily refuted, other FUD requires more discussion and understanding. He has already said that he is working with his government on educating the public on the scam that is bitcoin.
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January 08, 2015, 09:13:21 PM
 #19914

Exceptional societies were the few that rejected this and relied on self reliance and responsibility of the individual. I've read about them, but have never seen one in my lifetime.

Could you name them please? I am not aware of any minimally developed society that would not have some sort of government backed by some sort of police.

I have seen people cite ancient Ireland (which seems to be false, false, the tribes had chiefs and there was even a "High King" at some point) and Iceland (where the population was all isolated farmers and the first village formed in the 18th century).  Do you mean some other?

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January 08, 2015, 09:17:27 PM
 #19915

a non-conforming cartel would simply be removed from the pool

Please go back and read the plan I outlined.  The one with chains (1), (2), (3). Then please show me how the non-conformant cartel would be "removed from the pool" (?).

Academic interest in bitcoin only. Not owner, not trader, very skeptical of its longterm success.
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January 08, 2015, 09:17:44 PM
 #19916

There is no cartel on the Red Button hard forked protocol. Anyone has equal access to the ability to mine. The fact that someone was a cartel previously does not grant any vested status in the future. Deepbit, for example, has no greater ability to show up today and be a mining cartel than you or I do.
Come on, you know that "the cartel" there means "the cartel of old-chain miners who want to force a change in the block schedule".  It is not "a cartel of rebel-chain miners". 
Yes, and what I'm saying is there is no cartel. A cartel implies there is some barrier to entry (for example by limited capacity of equipment). There is none here; everyone can mine.

And, again, I never said that they would be a cartel of rebel-chain miners.  They would still be a cartel of miners of the old chain and the cartel chain.  In fact they would have 100% of the active ASIC miners on their side, because the old chain miners would have no other viable option except join them.

There would be no point. Focus on users, not miners, for a monent. The have a choice:

Option 1. Hard forked chain that that pays more to miners

Option 2. Hard forked chain that does not pay more to miners

Users would choose #2. Miners would choose #1

Miners are by definition sellers of bitcoin, users are both buyers and sellers. Chain two would have both sellers and buyers. Chain 1 would have sellers but no buyers, and would therefore have no value. ASIC miners would face the choice to waste electricity mining a worthless coin or shut down.

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January 08, 2015, 09:20:49 PM
 #19917

Quote
I refuse to believe that he can not understand this, and instead believe he is simply trying out and testing new FUD against bitcoin here. Some FUD is easily refuted, other FUD requires more discussion and understanding. He has already said that he is working with his government on educating the public on the scam that is bitcoin.

yes Chief FUD Tester ... if he can get some FUD to fly here he runs with it and disseminates it to the other FUDsters. It is immaterial if that FUD has valid basis in logic or has technical merit or not because the aim is to generate as much FUD as possible to discredit, not to actually critique cryptocurrencies or bitcoin technology.

the current FUD is mining "cartels" FUDing ... ummm where are they exactly and what have they ever done in 6 years (when the stakes and therefore the protections were much lower)??

wanted for evidence: 1 proven malicious mining cartel

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January 08, 2015, 09:29:06 PM
 #19918

oil?  who the hell needs oil, let alone natgas?:



lol yeah it seems US Dollars or other fiat is the most important thing for people to have...not commodities or tangible assets.  Cheesy

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January 08, 2015, 09:30:56 PM
 #19919

oil?  who the hell needs oil, let alone natgas?:



does this mean oil has failed?

i take it as the powers that be want people out of commodities and into fiat. Once they setup their plan....scrap the paper and take all the assets.  Roll Eyes

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LEALANA Monero Physical Silver Coins


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January 08, 2015, 09:32:07 PM
 #19920

does this mean oil has failed?

The difference is that you need oil and probably 9/10 families have at least 1 thing that runs on oil (or gas made from it), be it a car, a motorcycle, a pump, lawn mower or a generator.
Is there anything physical that would cease to work if bitcoin disappeared? The only thing I can think of is mining hardware.

Yes. People's ability to transact fast and cheap over long distances.

That is huge ^

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. ★☆ WWW.LEALANA.COM        My PGP fingerprint is A764D833.        SMOOTHIE'S HEALTH AND FITNESS JOURNAL          History of Monero development Visualization ★☆ .
LEALANA  PHYSICAL MONERO COINS 999 FINE SILVER.
 
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