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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 1920274 times)
lunarboy
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December 29, 2014, 12:42:52 PM
 #19101

whilst i'm here.

also of interest today

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President Putin signed a law on Monday doubling the deposit guarantee for bank accounts, to 1.4m roubles (£16,290; $25,370).

The last time Russia suffered a major economic crisis, in 1998, many ordinary Russians saw their bank savings wiped out.

Mr Putin has also given the Russian central bank the power to recapitalise the country's biggest retail bank, Sberbank, directly with soft loans. The total must not exceed Sberbank's capital as measured on 1 January 2015.

The "subordinated debt" issued by the central bank, if Sberbank needs it, will not have to be repaid until other loans have been paid off. It is a cushion in case Sberbank gets into financial difficulty.

Other banks can be recapitalised by the central bank through Russia's deposit guarantee agency, using federal government bonds.

not really sure what this signifies, but I assume they are pretty concerned about the state of the countries banks to hold up in this crisis??
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December 29, 2014, 04:18:49 PM
 #19102

<chart showing obliteration of litecoin price>

The scale is a bit misleading. It looks perhaps like LTC is down 99% but look at the numbers. It is down from about 0.03 to 0.01.

Bitcoin is down a similar amount against USD.  

(Granted LTC is priced against BTC so down ~90% against USD).


Nov 29 2013, LTC was at 0.043BTC, which was about $47. LTC = $2.74 today, so that's a fall of 94.2% against the dollar (and a fall of 80% against bitcoin at current 0.00859BTC/LTC).

Yes and from the peak of 1163, BTC is now down 73%. At its recently low of 275, it was down 76%. Not quite as bad as LTC but nothing to cheer about either.


First off, I was just fixing your litecoin numbers, not comparing to bitcoin's dollar performance.

But since you bring it up: falling 94.2% against something is quite meaningfully worse than -76%. Specifically, it represents a loss of 3/4 of the remaining amount.

Bitcoin is the first monetary system to credibly offer perfect information to all economic participants.
But Bitcointalk & /r/bitcoin are heavily censored. bitco.in/forum, forum.bitcoin.com, and /r/btc are open.
Best info on Casascius coins: http://spotcoins.com/casascius
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December 29, 2014, 05:19:36 PM
 #19103

<chart showing obliteration of litecoin price>

The scale is a bit misleading. It looks perhaps like LTC is down 99% but look at the numbers. It is down from about 0.03 to 0.01.

Bitcoin is down a similar amount against USD.  

(Granted LTC is priced against BTC so down ~90% against USD).


Nov 29 2013, LTC was at 0.043BTC, which was about $47. LTC = $2.74 today, so that's a fall of 94.2% against the dollar (and a fall of 80% against bitcoin at current 0.00859BTC/LTC).

Yes and from the peak of 1163, BTC is now down 73%. At its recently low of 275, it was down 76%. Not quite as bad as LTC but nothing to cheer about either.


First off, I was just fixing your litecoin numbers, not comparing to bitcoin's dollar performance.

But since you bring it up: falling 94.2% against something is quite meaningfully worse than -76%. Specifically, it represents a loss of 3/4 of the remaining amount.

LTC lost 80% against BTC compared to the ATH. Period.


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December 29, 2014, 05:31:47 PM
 #19104

<chart showing obliteration of litecoin price>

The scale is a bit misleading. It looks perhaps like LTC is down 99% but look at the numbers. It is down from about 0.03 to 0.01.

Bitcoin is down a similar amount against USD.  

(Granted LTC is priced against BTC so down ~90% against USD).


Nov 29 2013, LTC was at 0.043BTC, which was about $47. LTC = $2.74 today, so that's a fall of 94.2% against the dollar (and a fall of 80% against bitcoin at current 0.00859BTC/LTC).

Yes and from the peak of 1163, BTC is now down 73%. At its recently low of 275, it was down 76%. Not quite as bad as LTC but nothing to cheer about either.


First off, I was just fixing your litecoin numbers, not comparing to bitcoin's dollar performance.

But since you bring it up: falling 94.2% against something is quite meaningfully worse than -76%. Specifically, it represents a loss of 3/4 of the remaining amount.

And if you believe in fibonacci; 76.4%.
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December 29, 2014, 07:41:19 PM
 #19105

ok, will it fail to confirm?

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December 29, 2014, 10:03:20 PM
 #19106

New year is coming closer, hopefully BTC recovers to at least 500 before silver or gold takes off

Now is the perfect time to buy more cheap coins

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December 30, 2014, 02:48:12 AM
 #19107

Bitcoin has now less monetary inflation than these countries (and probably a few others if 'real' rates were used).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_inflation_rate
    
 Egypt    10.61    
 Argentina 24.2    
 Ukraine    13    
 Syria    13.6    
 Iran    14.6    
 Belarus    19.8    
 Sudan    46.8    
 Venezuela 60.9

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/country-list/inflation-rate

Central African Republic 25.6
Eritrea 12.3
Ghana 17
Liberia 12.7
Malawi 23.7
Monogolia 11.5
North Korea 55


We can keep this list up to date as the bitcoin inflation rate continues to drop.

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December 30, 2014, 05:28:38 AM
 #19108

just saw The Imitation Game.  wow, great movie.  a must see for every Bitcoiner and cryptographer:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5CjKEFb-sM
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December 30, 2014, 05:35:07 AM
 #19109

ok, will it fail to confirm?



havent had that euphoria yet... should be a major upthrust soon.

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December 30, 2014, 06:42:03 AM
 #19110

for those who miss their daily SC's hit, go here for an excellent discussion btwn this guy Coinlock and nullc over on Reddit.  Coinlock gives some very clear and cogent arguments against the peg and shuts nullc down real quick:

http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2qpdnc/gregory_maxwell_how_i_went_from_bitcoin_skeptic/cn8dne9
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December 30, 2014, 07:13:08 AM
 #19111

for those who miss their daily SC's hit, go here for an excellent discussion btwn this guy Coinlock and nullc over on Reddit.  Coinlock gives some very clear and cogent arguments against the peg and shuts nullc down real quick:

http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2qpdnc/gregory_maxwell_how_i_went_from_bitcoin_skeptic/cn8dne9

Sidechain coins are Bitcoins.  All the muddled thinking about 'fixed price', 'supply/demand', etc, etc and the consequent confusion goes out the window when one conceptualizes that.  Alas, not everyone is capable of doing so and clearly not that Coinlock dude.  Of course most people are not really capable of conceptualizing Bitcoin itself for the same basic lack of mental flexibility.  Or any form of 'money' really.


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December 30, 2014, 07:26:08 AM
 #19112

for those who miss their daily SC's hit, go here for an excellent discussion btwn this guy Coinlock and nullc over on Reddit.  Coinlock gives some very clear and cogent arguments against the peg and shuts nullc down real quick:

http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2qpdnc/gregory_maxwell_how_i_went_from_bitcoin_skeptic/cn8dne9

Sidechain coins are Bitcoins.  All the muddled thinking about 'fixed price', 'supply/demand', etc, etc and the consequent confusion goes out the window when one conceptualizes that.  Alas, not everyone is capable of doing so and clearly not that Coinlock dude.  Of course most people are not really capable of conceptualizing Bitcoin itself for the same basic lack of mental flexibility.  Or any form of 'money' really.



no.  Bitcoins are units that only exist on the MC.  anything else that rides on less secure SC's are who the hell knows what.
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December 30, 2014, 07:44:19 AM
 #19113


Sidechain coins are Bitcoins.  All the muddled thinking about 'fixed price', 'supply/demand', etc, etc and the consequent confusion goes out the window when one conceptualizes that.  Alas, not everyone is capable of doing so and clearly not that Coinlock dude.  Of course most people are not really capable of conceptualizing Bitcoin itself for the same basic lack of mental flexibility.  Or any form of 'money' really.

no.  Bitcoins are units that only exist on the MC.

Bingo!  We have a winner!  Repeat after me as many times as necessary:  'two...way...peg.  two...way...peg."  This 'exists on MC' is precisely what separates Sidchain coins from Bitcoin alts and work-a-likes.


anything else that rides on less secure SC's are who the hell knows what.

Granted in the earlier phases there will be a discount for this which will diminish as confidence increases.  There will also be a discount for the mechanical aspects of utilizing the peg.  But these things are minor and largely inconsequential to the conceptual basis of the solution.


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December 30, 2014, 07:51:17 AM
 #19114


Sidechain coins are Bitcoins.  All the muddled thinking about 'fixed price', 'supply/demand', etc, etc and the consequent confusion goes out the window when one conceptualizes that.  Alas, not everyone is capable of doing so and clearly not that Coinlock dude.  Of course most people are not really capable of conceptualizing Bitcoin itself for the same basic lack of mental flexibility.  Or any form of 'money' really.

no.  Bitcoins are units that only exist on the MC.

Bingo!  We have a winner!  Repeat after me as many times as necessary:  'two...way...peg.  two...way...peg."  This 'exists on MC' is precisely what separates Sidchain coins from Bitcoin alts and work-a-likes.


anything else that rides on less secure SC's are who the hell knows what.

Granted in the earlier phases there will be a discount for this which will diminish as confidence increases.  There will also be a discount for the mechanical aspects of utilizing the peg.  But these things are minor and largely inconsequential to the conceptual basis of the solution.



The peg is an illusion.
Melbustus
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December 30, 2014, 08:08:03 AM
 #19115


Sidechain coins are Bitcoins.  All the muddled thinking about 'fixed price', 'supply/demand', etc, etc and the consequent confusion goes out the window when one conceptualizes that.  Alas, not everyone is capable of doing so and clearly not that Coinlock dude.  Of course most people are not really capable of conceptualizing Bitcoin itself for the same basic lack of mental flexibility.  Or any form of 'money' really.

no.  Bitcoins are units that only exist on the MC.

Bingo!  We have a winner!  Repeat after me as many times as necessary:  'two...way...peg.  two...way...peg."  This 'exists on MC' is precisely what separates Sidchain coins from Bitcoin alts and work-a-likes.


anything else that rides on less secure SC's are who the hell knows what.

Granted in the earlier phases there will be a discount for this which will diminish as confidence increases.  There will also be a discount for the mechanical aspects of utilizing the peg.  But these things are minor and largely inconsequential to the conceptual basis of the solution.



The peg is an illusion.


I think what might happen is that pegs will have to be really "cheap" in order to compensate for the risk of the sidechain. Then, if the sidechain works and its utility rises, it'll pull up demand for bitcoin quickly as the underpricing becomes apparent.

Of course, that's in the simple 1:fixedX peg scenario.

What scares me with sidechains is still the "any deterministic function" blockchain-introspection aspect of it. Back to the example of a peg func that says: "peg is 1:1000 until sidechain block N, then 1:0". Then you just have an alt-coin that was boostrapped off bitcoin, and any future increase in demand for the alt cannot flow back to bitcoin.

Bitcoin is the first monetary system to credibly offer perfect information to all economic participants.
But Bitcointalk & /r/bitcoin are heavily censored. bitco.in/forum, forum.bitcoin.com, and /r/btc are open.
Best info on Casascius coins: http://spotcoins.com/casascius
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December 30, 2014, 09:12:26 AM
 #19116


Sidechain coins are Bitcoins.  All the muddled thinking about 'fixed price', 'supply/demand', etc, etc and the consequent confusion goes out the window when one conceptualizes that.  Alas, not everyone is capable of doing so and clearly not that Coinlock dude.  Of course most people are not really capable of conceptualizing Bitcoin itself for the same basic lack of mental flexibility.  Or any form of 'money' really.

no.  Bitcoins are units that only exist on the MC.

Bingo!  We have a winner!  Repeat after me as many times as necessary:  'two...way...peg.  two...way...peg."  This 'exists on MC' is precisely what separates Sidchain coins from Bitcoin alts and work-a-likes.


anything else that rides on less secure SC's are who the hell knows what.

Granted in the earlier phases there will be a discount for this which will diminish as confidence increases.  There will also be a discount for the mechanical aspects of utilizing the peg.  But these things are minor and largely inconsequential to the conceptual basis of the solution.



The peg is an illusion.

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I think you're just suffering some confusion. But I'm not sure exactly what.
^ this
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December 30, 2014, 10:18:50 AM
 #19117

Side chains are probably unicorns . I say probably because I haven't seen the proof of concept demonstrated nor have a real world analogy. It seems like vaporware.

Any significantly advanced cryptocurrency is indistinguishable from Ponzi Tulips.
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December 30, 2014, 10:41:14 AM
 #19118

Side chains are probably unicorns . I say probably because I haven't seen the proof of concept demonstrated nor have a real world analogy. It seems like vaporware.

Time will tell I suppose.

Fwiw 2wpeg sidechains could be implemented now, without any changes to the btc protocol...

Bitcoin is a participatory system which ought to respect the right of self determinism of all of its users - Gregory Maxwell.
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December 30, 2014, 10:51:12 AM
 #19119

Side chains are probably unicorns . I say probably because I haven't seen the proof of concept demonstrated nor have a real world analogy. It seems like vaporware.

 Huh

They are not terribly hard to understand. Yes the math has to be vetted, the crypto validated and implemented but they are very much a reality and certainly not "vaporware".

The proof of concept is in the whitepaper.

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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Let's talk governance, lipstick, and pigs.


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December 30, 2014, 11:14:19 AM
 #19120

Side chains are probably unicorns . I say probably because I haven't seen the proof of concept demonstrated nor have a real world analogy. It seems like vaporware.

Time will tell I suppose.

Fwiw 2wpeg sidechains could be implemented now, without any changes to the btc protocol...
Let's see a two way peg with test bitcoins and test litecoins at an arbitrary peg. Has anyone created an atomic swap between chains without human intervention?

Any significantly advanced cryptocurrency is indistinguishable from Ponzi Tulips.
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