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Question: Will you support Gavin's new block size limit hard fork of 8MB by January 1, 2016 then doubling every 2 years?
1.  yes
2.  no

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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 1806127 times)
prophetx
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January 02, 2015, 10:44:58 PM
 #19421

Adam,

1.  what's your view on the maximum #SC's that can reasonably be MM'd by the Bitcoin mining network?  i'm not aware of any capable mining software in existence today that would allow multiple SC MM'ing besides the simple Namecoin experiment, which is a public service altcoin afaic.

2.  given that individual miners have limited resources and technical skill, won't MM'ing force solo miners into pools where these skills and resources will be more centralized?

3.  we've already seen a 10x drop in the prices of mining hardware as a result of the stiff competition and profit crunch.  this is a natural cyclic effect of the game theory which drives competition for BTC rewards and tx fees.  you say that SC's can help these profits by helping to extend demand (possibly).  but the fact is, you're compensating for what is a natural result of the incentive structure as the rules are currently written.  you're changing the rules of the game, midstream, that changes the market assumptions behind mining.  i actually consider these extremely thin marginal profits to be in an exquisite balance today.  considering only the positives of this change while ignoring the possible negatives is naive as this is an extremely complex topic.

4.  51% attacks will be much more profitable and tempting with SC's, imo, as they don't risk destroying mining pools main source of income, the MC.  short selling the to be attacked SC on an exchange while stealing its scBTC at the same time could be quite a profitable scheme. 

5.  if a SC like Zerocoin/Zerocash gets declared illegal by the US gvt, legit pools that can't/won't participate in an illegal SC might have an actual incentive to attack it to destroy those users and their scBTC that are in fact using Zerocoin/Zerocash illegally.  given that no SC will ever have 100% MM, 51% attacks become much easier to execute.

what is an "SC" and an "MM"?

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1481191096
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cypherdoc
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January 02, 2015, 10:45:43 PM
 #19422

2.  given that individual miners have limited resources and technical skill, won't MM'ing force solo miners into pools where these skills and resources will be more centralized?

What solo miners?


you know, the solo miners.  the one's who are left.

kinda like all the assumed dead addresses out there with coin.
cypherdoc
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January 02, 2015, 10:47:44 PM
 #19423

Adam,

1.  what's your view on the maximum #SC's that can reasonably be MM'd by the Bitcoin mining network?  i'm not aware of any capable mining software in existence today that would allow multiple SC MM'ing besides the simple Namecoin experiment, which is a public service altcoin afaic.

2.  given that individual miners have limited resources and technical skill, won't MM'ing force solo miners into pools where these skills and resources will be more centralized?

3.  we've already seen a 10x drop in the prices of mining hardware as a result of the stiff competition and profit crunch.  this is a natural cyclic effect of the game theory which drives competition for BTC rewards and tx fees.  you say that SC's can help these profits by helping to extend demand (possibly).  but the fact is, you're compensating for what is a natural result of the incentive structure as the rules are currently written.  you're changing the rules of the game, midstream, that changes the market assumptions behind mining.  i actually consider these extremely thin marginal profits to be in an exquisite balance today.  considering only the positives of this change while ignoring the possible negatives is naive as this is an extremely complex topic.

4.  51% attacks will be much more profitable and tempting with SC's, imo, as they don't risk destroying mining pools main source of income, the MC.  short selling the to be attacked SC on an exchange while stealing its scBTC at the same time could be quite a profitable scheme. 

5.  if a SC like Zerocoin/Zerocash gets declared illegal by the US gvt, legit pools that can't/won't participate in an illegal SC might have an actual incentive to attack it to destroy those users and their scBTC that are in fact using Zerocoin/Zerocash illegally.  given that no SC will ever have 100% MM, 51% attacks become much easier to execute.

what is an "SC" and an "MM"?

Sidechain dictionary:

SC=sidechain
MM=merge mining
MC=mainchain (Bitcoin blockchain)
scBTC=reanimated BTC on SC that have passed thru the 2wp
ZC=zerocoin or zerocash
TC=Truthcoin
smooth
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January 02, 2015, 10:49:02 PM
 #19424

2.  given that individual miners have limited resources and technical skill, won't MM'ing force solo miners into pools where these skills and resources will be more centralized?

What solo miners?


you know, the solo miners.  the one's who are left.

Okay fair point. "Unknown" is 18%, which is a lot higher than I remember. I guess that is mostly farms with their own private pools, not really what I think of as solo miners, but technically they are.

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January 02, 2015, 11:16:05 PM
 #19425

2.  given that individual miners have limited resources and technical skill, won't MM'ing force solo miners into pools where these skills and resources will be more centralized?

What solo miners?


you know, the solo miners.  the one's who are left.

Okay fair point. "Unknown" is 18%, which is a lot higher than I remember. I guess that is mostly farms with their own private pools, not really what I think of as solo miners, but technically they are.



They probably have their own stratum servers anyways, but its the closest to the old solo mining that there is

cypherdoc
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January 02, 2015, 11:17:35 PM
 #19426

https://twitter.com/cypherdoc2/status/551155168994414593
BlindMayorBitcorn
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January 02, 2015, 11:20:01 PM
 #19427

Ok brothers I've read the sidechains whitepaper and I have a question.

What are the regulatory/political drawbacks or ramifications of introducing extra-anonymous features in a scBTC?

Forgive my petulance and oft-times, I fear, ill-founded criticisms, and forgive me that I have, by this time, made your eyes and head ache with my long letter. But I cannot forgo hastily the pleasure and pride of thus conversing with you.
dakota neat
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January 02, 2015, 11:21:49 PM
 #19428

Ok brothers I've read the sidechains whitepaper and I have a question.

What are the regulatory/political drawbacks or ramifications of introducing extra-anonymous features in a scBTC?

Nobody cares about the fucking goverment. This is Crypto.

BTCound for the Broken Promise Land
cypherdoc
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January 02, 2015, 11:27:38 PM
 #19429

Ok brothers I've read the sidechains whitepaper and I have a question.

What are the regulatory/political drawbacks or ramifications of introducing extra-anonymous features in a scBTC?

Nobody cares about the fucking goverment. This is Crypto.

Adam,

5.  if a SC like Zerocoin/Zerocash gets declared illegal by the US gvt, legit pools that can't/won't participate in an illegal SC might have an actual incentive to attack it to destroy those users and their scBTC that are in fact using Zerocoin/Zerocash illegally.  given that no SC will ever have 100% MM, 51% attacks become much easier to execute.
dakota neat
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January 02, 2015, 11:32:46 PM
 #19430

Ok brothers I've read the sidechains whitepaper and I have a question.

What are the regulatory/political drawbacks or ramifications of introducing extra-anonymous features in a scBTC?

Nobody cares about the fucking goverment. This is Crypto.

Adam,

5.  if a SC like Zerocoin/Zerocash gets declared illegal by the US gvt, legit pools that can't/won't participate in an illegal SC might have an actual incentive to attack it to destroy those users and their scBTC that are in fact using Zerocoin/Zerocash illegally.  given that no SC will ever have 100% MM, 51% attacks become much easier to execute.

Damn, don't be a tool. Who cares about the US?

BTCound for the Broken Promise Land
BlindMayorBitcorn
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January 02, 2015, 11:33:39 PM
 #19431

Ok brothers I've read the sidechains whitepaper and I have a question.

What are the regulatory/political drawbacks or ramifications of introducing extra-anonymous features in a scBTC?

Nobody cares about the fucking goverment. This is Crypto.

Adam,

5.  if a SC like Zerocoin/Zerocash gets declared illegal by the US gvt, legit pools that can't/won't participate in an illegal SC might have an actual incentive to attack it to destroy those users and their scBTC that are in fact using Zerocoin/Zerocash illegally.  given that no SC will ever have 100% MM, 51% attacks become much easier to execute.

That doesn't sound very promising

Forgive my petulance and oft-times, I fear, ill-founded criticisms, and forgive me that I have, by this time, made your eyes and head ache with my long letter. But I cannot forgo hastily the pleasure and pride of thus conversing with you.
Odalv
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January 02, 2015, 11:34:17 PM
 #19432

Ok brothers I've read the sidechains whitepaper and I have a question.

What are the regulatory/political drawbacks or ramifications of introducing extra-anonymous features in a scBTC?

Nobody cares about the fucking goverment. This is Crypto.

Adam,

5.  if a SC like Zerocoin/Zerocash gets declared illegal by the US gvt, legit pools that can't/won't participate in an illegal SC might have an actual incentive to attack it to destroy those users and their scBTC that are in fact using Zerocoin/Zerocash illegally.  given that no SC will ever have 100% MM, 51% attacks become much easier to execute.

 - you are using tooo much "if"s
 - you see MM as only solutions (we will have only few 2-3 100% MM SC (edit: if any :-))) => there are other better solutions than MM
LOBSTER
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January 02, 2015, 11:38:51 PM
 #19433

Ok brothers I've read the sidechains whitepaper and I have a question.

What are the regulatory/political drawbacks or ramifications of introducing extra-anonymous features in a scBTC?

Nobody cares about the fucking goverment. This is Crypto.

Adam,

5.  if a SC like Zerocoin/Zerocash gets declared illegal by the US gvt, legit pools that can't/won't participate in an illegal SC might have an actual incentive to attack it to destroy those users and their scBTC that are in fact using Zerocoin/Zerocash illegally.  given that no SC will ever have 100% MM, 51% attacks become much easier to execute.

That doesn't sound very promising

Yes you are right. Not very promising and shady too!
BlindMayorBitcorn
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January 02, 2015, 11:44:47 PM
 #19434

Ok brothers I've read the sidechains whitepaper and I have a question.

What are the regulatory/political drawbacks or ramifications of introducing extra-anonymous features in a scBTC?

Nobody cares about the fucking goverment. This is Crypto.

Adam,

5.  if a SC like Zerocoin/Zerocash gets declared illegal by the US gvt, legit pools that can't/won't participate in an illegal SC might have an actual incentive to attack it to destroy those users and their scBTC that are in fact using Zerocoin/Zerocash illegally.  given that no SC will ever have 100% MM, 51% attacks become much easier to execute.

That doesn't sound very promising

Yes you are right. Not very promising and shady too!

Lobster my man, this was honestly the first thing that crossed my mind on reading the paper. I don't know why it isn't being addressed

Forgive my petulance and oft-times, I fear, ill-founded criticisms, and forgive me that I have, by this time, made your eyes and head ache with my long letter. But I cannot forgo hastily the pleasure and pride of thus conversing with you.
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January 02, 2015, 11:46:07 PM
 #19435

Ok brothers I've read the sidechains whitepaper and I have a question.

What are the regulatory/political drawbacks or ramifications of introducing extra-anonymous features in a scBTC?

introducing regulatory/political drawbacks into a technology is sure to compromise its function and benefits to humanity.

would you have lawyers/politicians design/build 747's for you to cross the Atlantic in? design/build nuclear power stations to power your cities?

leave technology to the technologists unless you want bad outcomes.

money is a value information technology not a political tool, it needs to be the best technology it can be to maximally benefit humanity, not a compromised, politicised, perverted tool for oppression and dubious agendas.

cypherdoc
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January 02, 2015, 11:46:19 PM
 #19436

Ok brothers I've read the sidechains whitepaper and I have a question.

What are the regulatory/political drawbacks or ramifications of introducing extra-anonymous features in a scBTC?

Nobody cares about the fucking goverment. This is Crypto.

Adam,

5.  if a SC like Zerocoin/Zerocash gets declared illegal by the US gvt, legit pools that can't/won't participate in an illegal SC might have an actual incentive to attack it to destroy those users and their scBTC that are in fact using Zerocoin/Zerocash illegally.  given that no SC will ever have 100% MM, 51% attacks become much easier to execute.

Damn, don't be a tool. Who cares about the US?

i neither approve or disapprove of this.  this is just my observation.  the reality of the matter is that US pools are in a very difficult situation.  BTCGuild and Eleuthria sold out b/c he wasn't about to go against possible US regulation as he didn't want to go to jail.
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January 02, 2015, 11:47:06 PM
 #19437

Ok brothers I've read the sidechains whitepaper and I have a question.

What are the regulatory/political drawbacks or ramifications of introducing extra-anonymous features in a scBTC?

Nobody cares about the fucking goverment. This is Crypto.

Adam,

5.  if a SC like Zerocoin/Zerocash gets declared illegal by the US gvt, legit pools that can't/won't participate in an illegal SC might have an actual incentive to attack it to destroy those users and their scBTC that are in fact using Zerocoin/Zerocash illegally.  given that no SC will ever have 100% MM, 51% attacks become much easier to execute.

 - you are using tooo much "if"s
 - you see MM as only solutions (we will have only few 2-3 100% MM SC (edit: if any :-))) => there are other better solutions than MM

what are they besides federated servers?
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January 02, 2015, 11:48:11 PM
 #19438

Ok brothers I've read the sidechains whitepaper and I have a question.

What are the regulatory/political drawbacks or ramifications of introducing extra-anonymous features in a scBTC?

Nobody cares about the fucking goverment. This is Crypto.

Adam,

5.  if a SC like Zerocoin/Zerocash gets declared illegal by the US gvt, legit pools that can't/won't participate in an illegal SC might have an actual incentive to attack it to destroy those users and their scBTC that are in fact using Zerocoin/Zerocash illegally.  given that no SC will ever have 100% MM, 51% attacks become much easier to execute.

That doesn't sound very promising

Yes you are right. Not very promising and shady too!

apparently not for LukeJr and Eligius!
BlindMayorBitcorn
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January 02, 2015, 11:48:49 PM
 #19439

Ok brothers I've read the sidechains whitepaper and I have a question.

What are the regulatory/political drawbacks or ramifications of introducing extra-anonymous features in a scBTC?

introducing regulatory/political drawbacks into a technology is sure to compromise its function and benefits to humanity.

would you have lawyers/politicians design/build 747's for you to cross the Atlantic in? design/build nuclear power stations to power your cities?

leave technology to the technologists unless you want bad outcomes.

money is a value information technology not a political tool, it needs to be the best technology it can be to maximally benefit humanity, not a compromised, politicised, perverted tool for oppression and dubious agendas.

I see your point

Forgive my petulance and oft-times, I fear, ill-founded criticisms, and forgive me that I have, by this time, made your eyes and head ache with my long letter. But I cannot forgo hastily the pleasure and pride of thus conversing with you.
cypherdoc
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January 02, 2015, 11:50:31 PM
 #19440

Ok brothers I've read the sidechains whitepaper and I have a question.

What are the regulatory/political drawbacks or ramifications of introducing extra-anonymous features in a scBTC?

introducing regulatory/political drawbacks into a technology is sure to compromise its function and benefits to humanity.

would you have lawyers/politicians design/build 747's for you to cross the Atlantic in? design/build nuclear power stations to power your cities?

leave technology to the technologists unless you want bad outcomes.

money is a value information technology not a political tool, it needs to be the best technology it can be to maximally benefit humanity, not a compromised, politicised, perverted tool for oppression and dubious agendas.

marcus, in your opinion does that include SC's for Bitcoin?
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