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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 2010651 times)
marcus_of_augustus
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December 12, 2014, 09:19:48 AM
 #18641

Congrats to BitPay for bringing Microsoft into the fold.

Actually from their press release it sounds like Microsoft did it all by themselves. No 'education' by bitpay necessary. It also seems they have further plans and an urge to pull through in a timely manner.

EDIT: sorry, it wasn't a press release but this coindesk article already mentioned above.

This. I would not be surprised if Microsoft had larger designs on BitPay than just using them as a service provider ...

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cypherdoc
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December 12, 2014, 11:18:29 AM
 #18642

Congrats to BitPay for bringing Microsoft into the fold.

Actually from their press release it sounds like Microsoft did it all by themselves. No 'education' by bitpay necessary. It also seems they have further plans and an urge to pull through in a timely manner.

EDIT: sorry, it wasn't a press release but this coindesk article already mentioned above.

This. I would not be surprised if Microsoft had larger designs on BitPay than just using them as a service provider ...

If there was ever any question about Bitpays future they've all been but settled with this deal. Can you imagine the revenue addition Microsoft brings? Even PayPal doesn't have this sort of an arrangement as a payment processor with any such large behemoth. And as such a critical player in the Bitcoin space this all but assures for Bitcoins future success.

 There have been some who have said this event has made them go all in. I can see why. 
cypherdoc
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December 12, 2014, 11:29:18 AM
 #18643

I was on the fence about buying a new Xbox.

This settles it.  Merry Christmas!

I didn't have a console, ever. I quit playing computer games at some point.

I think I might get a TV or projector and a steam box.

When is steam going to accept Bitcoin? Now that would imply a rocket.

(I know one can buy steam games with bitcoin through 3rd parties, that's not what I mean).


I quit years ago as well. But I still have one teenager left at home. But who knows? Maybe I'll start again just because of Microsoft. Just to support the cause. A part of me wonders just how much the tech has come along.
NewLiberty
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December 12, 2014, 02:58:11 PM
 #18644

I was on the fence about buying a new Xbox.

This settles it.  Merry Christmas!

I didn't have a console, ever. I quit playing computer games at some point.

I think I might get a TV or projector and a steam box.

When is steam going to accept Bitcoin? Now that would imply a rocket.

(I know one can buy steam games with bitcoin through 3rd parties, that's not what I mean).


I quit years ago as well. But I still have one teenager left at home. But who knows? Maybe I'll start again just because of Microsoft. Just to support the cause. A part of me wonders just how much the tech has come along.

Your teenagers will use you as a punching bag.
I used to think I was good at a few games until I had a son.
It will be humbling, but you will have new things to talk about with them.

FREE MONEY1 Bitcoin for Silver and Gold NewLibertyDollar.com and now BITCOIN SPECIE (silver 1 ozt) shows value by QR
Bulk premiums as low as .0012 BTC "BETTER, MORE COLLECTIBLE, AND CHEAPER THAN SILVER EAGLES" 1Free of Government
tabnloz
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December 12, 2014, 03:02:51 PM
 #18645

 "In the event of a severe Greek government clash with international lenders, interruption of liquidity provision to Greek banks by the ECB could potentially even lead to a Cyprus-style prolonged “bank holiday”. And market fears for potential Euro-exit risks could rise at that point."

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-12-12/goldman-warns-greeks-cyprus-style-prolonged-bank-holiday-if-they-vote-wrong
cypherdoc
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December 12, 2014, 03:13:06 PM
 #18646

I was on the fence about buying a new Xbox.

This settles it.  Merry Christmas!

I didn't have a console, ever. I quit playing computer games at some point.

I think I might get a TV or projector and a steam box.

When is steam going to accept Bitcoin? Now that would imply a rocket.

(I know one can buy steam games with bitcoin through 3rd parties, that's not what I mean).


I quit years ago as well. But I still have one teenager left at home. But who knows? Maybe I'll start again just because of Microsoft. Just to support the cause. A part of me wonders just how much the tech has come along.

Your teenagers will use you as a punching bag.
I used to think I was good at a few games until I had a son.
It will be humbling, but you will have new things to talk about with them.

Oh yeah, I already came to that humbling realization years ago. I used to think I was good at those  games too.  I was awesome at Pong Wink.

Kids these days seem to meld with video games.
tabnloz
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December 12, 2014, 03:18:37 PM
 #18647

Georgetown economics professor advocates 'bitdollar'

the progress is slow, but at least he ain't bitcorn.

http://linkis.com/www.wired.com/2014/1/fQHEe

cypherdoc
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December 12, 2014, 03:28:17 PM
 #18648

"In the event of a severe Greek government clash with international lenders, interruption of liquidity provision to Greek banks by the ECB could potentially even lead to a Cyprus-style prolonged “bank holiday”. And market fears for potential Euro-exit risks could rise at that point."

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-12-12/goldman-warns-greeks-cyprus-style-prolonged-bank-holiday-if-they-vote-wrong

There is definite trouble happening. 
cypherdoc
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December 12, 2014, 03:34:34 PM
 #18649

Georgetown economics professor advocates 'bitdollar'

the progress is slow, but at least he ain't bitcorn.

http://linkis.com/www.wired.com/2014/1/fQHEe



Lame assertions yet again:

The Canadians eventually shelved their MintChip dreams

He fails to comprehend why.
tabnloz
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December 12, 2014, 03:52:06 PM
 #18650

Georgetown economics professor advocates 'bitdollar'

the progress is slow, but at least he ain't bitcorn.

http://linkis.com/www.wired.com/2014/1/fQHEe



Lame assertions yet again:

The Canadians eventually shelved their MintChip dreams

He fails to comprehend why.

good to read some people pointing him in the right direction in the comments section (which generally themselves are slowly changing tact)
cypherdoc
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December 12, 2014, 04:37:09 PM
 #18651

i've been saying all along we're in a deflation.  this is a big indicator:

cypherdoc
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December 12, 2014, 05:19:33 PM
 #18652

the sucking sound of deflation and black hole shit:

NewLiberty
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December 12, 2014, 05:24:41 PM
 #18653

i've been saying all along we're in a deflation.  this is a big indicator:


Low energy price in this case may be less an indication of a decreasing economy and more a supply/demand issue, and stronger dollar.
The low oil price will be accretive to growth everywhere except oil exporters (as of this year, the USA is also an oil exporter, but not at all significant by percentage of economy).
Some costs will be reduced, some additional capacity will be turned on.  It will be a savings to some industries which will increase profits and growth.

In the sense that all "productivity" increases also create deflation, then yes, it is an indicator of deflation, but only by that weird measurement.

We may be in a deflation anyway, but oil prices are not indicating that so much they are indicating a supply glut.  Oil may be priced what it was in 2009, but just not for the same reasons.

Oil Demand and usage has increased, not contracted.

AND... lower prices are going to bend this projection chart upward further toward more demand, because lower prices means more consumption is coming, not less.


"Uncertainty" is going to mess with equity markets for a while, but earnings season is going to be pretty nice for a lot of companies that are petrol dependent.

FREE MONEY1 Bitcoin for Silver and Gold NewLibertyDollar.com and now BITCOIN SPECIE (silver 1 ozt) shows value by QR
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cypherdoc
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December 12, 2014, 05:36:32 PM
 #18654

i've been saying all along we're in a deflation.  this is a big indicator:


Low energy price in this case may be less an indication of a decreasing economy and more a supply/demand issue, and stronger dollar.
The low oil price will be accretive to growth everywhere except oil exporters (as of this year, the USA is also an oil exporter, but not at all significant by percentage of economy).
Some costs will be reduced, some additional capacity will be turned on.  It will be a savings to some industries which will increase profits and growth.

In the sense that all "productivity" increases also create deflation, then yes, it is an indicator of deflation, but only by that weird measurement.

We may be in a deflation anyway, but oil prices are not indicating that so much they are indicating a supply glut.  Oil may be priced what it was in 2009, but just not for the same reasons.

Oil Demand and usage has increased, not contracted.

AND... lower prices are going to bend this projection chart upward further toward more demand, because lower prices means more consumption is coming, not less.


"Uncertainty" is going to mess with equity markets for a while, but earnings season is going to be pretty nice for a lot of companies that are petrol dependent.

yours is certainly the predominant view and logical at a certain level.

i only pt out however that 2008 never allowed markets to "clear".  the debt buildup since has only multiplied thru unsustainable policies.  we could be entering the blow off phase of a multi-decade inflation with QE being the culmination of those policies.  i do find myself conflicted on what's happening as, in general, i'm an optimist as to what tech and Bitcoin will bring to society but i am also a believer in cycles.  it's time for another down cycle to clear mkts.  gold's multi year drop may be leading the next deflationary phase.

just be cautious.
rocks
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December 12, 2014, 06:15:21 PM
 #18655

i've been saying all along we're in a deflation.  this is a big indicator:


Low energy price in this case may be less an indication of a decreasing economy and more a supply/demand issue, and stronger dollar.
The low oil price will be accretive to growth everywhere except oil exporters (as of this year, the USA is also an oil exporter, but not at all significant by percentage of economy).
Some costs will be reduced, some additional capacity will be turned on.  It will be a savings to some industries which will increase profits and growth.

In the sense that all "productivity" increases also create deflation, then yes, it is an indicator of deflation, but only by that weird measurement.

We may be in a deflation anyway, but oil prices are not indicating that so much they are indicating a supply glut.  Oil may be priced what it was in 2009, but just not for the same reasons.

Oil Demand and usage has increased, not contracted.

AND... lower prices are going to bend this projection chart upward further toward more demand, because lower prices means more consumption is coming, not less.


"Uncertainty" is going to mess with equity markets for a while, but earnings season is going to be pretty nice for a lot of companies that are petrol dependent.

yours is certainly the predominant view and logical at a certain level.

i only pt out however that 2008 never allowed markets to "clear".  the debt buildup since has only multiplied thru unsustainable policies.  we could be entering the blow off phase of a multi-decade inflation with QE being the culmination of those policies.  i do find myself conflicted on what's happening as, in general, i'm an optimist as to what tech and Bitcoin will bring to society but i am also a believer in cycles.  it's time for another down cycle to clear mkts.  gold's multi year drop may be leading the next deflationary phase.

just be cautious.

This graph by the FED showing "Gross Domestic Product/St. Louis Adjusted Monetary Base" shows well what is happening.

http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/graph/?g=9wK

What central banking enabled, was for debts and promises to be made in gross excess of underlying money. This is possible under fiat because the FED can act as a backstop and provide "liquidity on demand" to too big to fail institutions, which allows these institutions to leverage as much as they want. Think of it as a rubber band that gets stretched more and more, under sound money stretching passed 2:1 was not advisable, but under fiat stretching 50:1 is possible.

This stretching of debts in excess of money causes inflation, home prices and all prices go up. What we are seeing now is the economy can not support these debts, and if you take away the debts prices will crash down. (for example housing which is a financial asset). so there are 2 options: a) massive debt write-offs, with resulting price crashes or b) massive expansion of money, to "hold" prices where they are today.

What is interesting about b) is although people think it will cause hyperinflation, it won't necessarily. What b) does is cement the inflation of the past 100 years, i.e. we already had the hyperinflation, the question is whether to keep it or get rid of it. This is also why central banks get away with their crimes, they stretch their hyperinflation over a long time period, so the public accepts it.
cypherdoc
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December 12, 2014, 06:21:16 PM
 #18656

i've been saying all along we're in a deflation.  this is a big indicator:


Low energy price in this case may be less an indication of a decreasing economy and more a supply/demand issue, and stronger dollar.
The low oil price will be accretive to growth everywhere except oil exporters (as of this year, the USA is also an oil exporter, but not at all significant by percentage of economy).
Some costs will be reduced, some additional capacity will be turned on.  It will be a savings to some industries which will increase profits and growth.

In the sense that all "productivity" increases also create deflation, then yes, it is an indicator of deflation, but only by that weird measurement.

We may be in a deflation anyway, but oil prices are not indicating that so much they are indicating a supply glut.  Oil may be priced what it was in 2009, but just not for the same reasons.

Oil Demand and usage has increased, not contracted.

AND... lower prices are going to bend this projection chart upward further toward more demand, because lower prices means more consumption is coming, not less.


"Uncertainty" is going to mess with equity markets for a while, but earnings season is going to be pretty nice for a lot of companies that are petrol dependent.

yours is certainly the predominant view and logical at a certain level.

i only pt out however that 2008 never allowed markets to "clear".  the debt buildup since has only multiplied thru unsustainable policies.  we could be entering the blow off phase of a multi-decade inflation with QE being the culmination of those policies.  i do find myself conflicted on what's happening as, in general, i'm an optimist as to what tech and Bitcoin will bring to society but i am also a believer in cycles.  it's time for another down cycle to clear mkts.  gold's multi year drop may be leading the next deflationary phase.

just be cautious.

This graph by the FED showing "Gross Domestic Product/St. Louis Adjusted Monetary Base" shows well what is happening.

http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/graph/?g=9wK

What central banking enabled, was for debts and promises to be made in gross excess of underlying money. This is possible under fiat because the FED can act as a backstop and provide "liquidity on demand" to too big to fail institutions, which allows these institutions to leverage as much as they want. Think of it as a rubber band that gets stretched more and more, under sound money stretching passed 2:1 was not advisable, but under fiat stretching 50:1 is possible.

This stretching of debts in excess of money causes inflation, home prices and all prices go up. What we are seeing now is the economy can not support these debts, and if you take away the debts prices will crash down. (for example housing which is a financial asset). so there are 2 options: a) massive debt write-offs, with resulting price crashes or b) massive expansion of money, to "hold" prices where they are today.

What is interesting about b) is although people think it will cause hyperinflation, it won't necessarily. What b) does is cement the inflation of the past 100 years, i.e. we already had the hyperinflation, the question is whether to keep it or get rid of it. This is also why central banks get away with their crimes, they stretch their hyperinflation over a long time period, so the public accepts it.

that's a great graph, rocks.

note how it correlates with the black hole shit graph here:



1980 marked the peak of inflation in the US, and ever since, yields have been falling corresponding with the increase of big gvt bond funding needed to sustain the great game.
rocks
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December 12, 2014, 06:45:40 PM
 #18657

that's a great graph, rocks.

note how it correlates with the black hole shit graph here:



1980 marked the peak of inflation in the US, and ever since, yields have been falling corresponding with the increase of big gvt bond funding needed to sustain the great game.

Those inflation graphs are scary. The future for the US is what happened to Japan here.



Japan's rates hit near-zero, at which point they were zero bound. At that point Japan's only option was even more massive debts and significant money printing. Their prices haven't gone up though because they are still in the black hole of over indebtedness. This seems to be the path the FED is taking.
NewLiberty
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December 12, 2014, 07:05:07 PM
 #18658

yours is certainly the predominant view and logical at a certain level.

i only pt out however that 2008 never allowed markets to "clear".  the debt buildup since has only multiplied thru unsustainable policies.  we could be entering the blow off phase of a multi-decade inflation with QE being the culmination of those policies.  i do find myself conflicted on what's happening as, in general, i'm an optimist as to what tech and Bitcoin will bring to society but i am also a believer in cycles.  it's time for another down cycle to clear mkts.  gold's multi year drop may be leading the next deflationary phase.

just be cautious.

I'm with you there.  The macro view is pretty borked in ways that make unborking unlikely without an entirely new paradigm.
The deflation is only a piece of that mess, and is being managed to make the massive QE inflation game take longer to play out on the hopes that something weird happens and it doesn't turn calamitous like usual.

Optimism?
Maybe this time is different.  Maybe alien time travelers will visit us and show us the new plan.  Maybe we find an efficient, portable, and safe energy storage device.  Maybe we will all live forever.  Lots of good things can happen, and I don't really want to talk about the bad things because they are just what usually happens historically when the string plays out on this game and we reach the end of the spool.

FREE MONEY1 Bitcoin for Silver and Gold NewLibertyDollar.com and now BITCOIN SPECIE (silver 1 ozt) shows value by QR
Bulk premiums as low as .0012 BTC "BETTER, MORE COLLECTIBLE, AND CHEAPER THAN SILVER EAGLES" 1Free of Government
Melbustus
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December 12, 2014, 07:23:42 PM
 #18659

A couple years behind the discussion here, but still good to see coming out of Princeton:

"Why ASICs may be good for Bitcoin" - https://freedom-to-tinker.com/blog/jbonneau/why-asics-may-be-good-for-bitcoin/

Quote
...
I would like to expand on the argument  here though by positing that ASICs may actually make Bitcoin (and similar cryptocurrencies) more stable by ensuring that miners have a large sunk cost and depend on future mining revenues to recoup it. Even if it were technically possible to design a perfectly ASIC-resistant mining puzzle which ensured that mining was efficient on general-purpose computers, this might be a bad idea if it meant you could obtain a lot of computational capacity and use it in a destructive attack on Bitcoin without significantly devaluing your computational resources’ value.
...


Bitcoin is the first monetary system to credibly offer perfect information to all economic participants.
Cryptoasset rankings and metrics for investors: http://onchainfx.com
rocks
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December 12, 2014, 07:49:31 PM
 #18660

yours is certainly the predominant view and logical at a certain level.

i only pt out however that 2008 never allowed markets to "clear".  the debt buildup since has only multiplied thru unsustainable policies.  we could be entering the blow off phase of a multi-decade inflation with QE being the culmination of those policies.  i do find myself conflicted on what's happening as, in general, i'm an optimist as to what tech and Bitcoin will bring to society but i am also a believer in cycles.  it's time for another down cycle to clear mkts.  gold's multi year drop may be leading the next deflationary phase.

just be cautious.

I'm with you there.  The macro view is pretty borked in ways that make unborking unlikely without an entirely new paradigm.
The deflation is only a piece of that mess, and is being managed to make the massive QE inflation game take longer to play out on the hopes that something weird happens and it doesn't turn calamitous like usual.

Optimism?
Maybe this time is different.  Maybe alien time travelers will visit us and show us the new plan.  Maybe we find an efficient, portable, and safe energy storage device.  Maybe we will all live forever.  Lots of good things can happen, and I don't really want to talk about the bad things because they are just what usually happens historically when the string plays out on this game and we reach the end of the spool.

Maybe this time someone motivated who sees what is going on will create an exit from the current financial regime that anyone in the world can join.
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