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Question: Will you support Gavin's new block size limit hard fork of 8MB by January 1, 2016 then doubling every 2 years?
1.  yes
2.  no

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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 1804435 times)
cbeast
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Let's talk governance, lipstick, and pigs.


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January 11, 2015, 06:12:06 PM
 #20021

Howabout this idea...

An asynchronous algorithm that links multiple side chains to Bitcoin in a floating peg. These side chains can offer many different capabilities that Bitcoin isn't designed for. The asynchronous protocol will protect Bitcoin should any of these side chains fail, but their success will make Bitcoin stronger and give it better scalability and liquidity. I already have much of the code for this protocol and it doesn't require any changes to Bitcoin. This protocol may have some bugs, but in time they should be worked out.
...it's called the market.

Not sure if serious....

This is precisely what sidechains are.
If you read my post carefully, we already have that solution.  Grin

Well please save us all from this debate and grace us with your solution.

On what level does your algorithm run? How do you control the peg?
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...it's called the market.
I hid the answer in tiny text. Gotcha!

So you prefer off-chain schemes. Gotcha!
I'll concede there's not a damn thing anyone can do to stop them, but it's obvious to me that side chains don't solve any problem that isn't already solved.

Any significantly advanced cryptocurrency is indistinguishable from Ponzi Tulips.
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brg444
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Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks


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January 11, 2015, 06:14:06 PM
 #20022

Howabout this idea...

An asynchronous algorithm that links multiple side chains to Bitcoin in a floating peg. These side chains can offer many different capabilities that Bitcoin isn't designed for. The asynchronous protocol will protect Bitcoin should any of these side chains fail, but their success will make Bitcoin stronger and give it better scalability and liquidity. I already have much of the code for this protocol and it doesn't require any changes to Bitcoin. This protocol may have some bugs, but in time they should be worked out.
...it's called the market.

Not sure if serious....

This is precisely what sidechains are.
If you read my post carefully, we already have that solution.  Grin

Well please save us all from this debate and grace us with your solution.

On what level does your algorithm run? How do you control the peg?
Quote
...it's called the market.
I hid the answer in tiny text. Gotcha!

So you prefer off-chain schemes. Gotcha!
I'll concede there's not a damn thing anyone can do to stop them, but it's obvious to me that side chains don't solve any problem that isn't already solved.

Well it's obvious to me you don't really know what you're talking about since sidechains are exactly what you need to stop (or at least provide an alternative) to offchain schemes.

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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January 11, 2015, 06:17:08 PM
 #20023

Howabout this idea...

An asynchronous algorithm that links multiple side chains to Bitcoin in a floating peg. These side chains can offer many different capabilities that Bitcoin isn't designed for. The asynchronous protocol will protect Bitcoin should any of these side chains fail, but their success will make Bitcoin stronger and give it better scalability and liquidity. I already have much of the code for this protocol and it doesn't require any changes to Bitcoin. This protocol may have some bugs, but in time they should be worked out.
...it's called the market.

Drop the 'floating' part of the peg (usually) and it sounds like a winner to me.

Being to lazy to look up Maxwell's 2wp stuff, I did a stream of consciousness idea on one of these threads a month or two ago.  It used private keys as an intermediate currency and peg implementation between native Bitcoin and the back-end (and required no changes to core.)

By the way, if you want to know who's working on the deanonymization and economic tracking problems, mention exchanging private keys systematically and watch who shits a brick Smiley


cbeast
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Let's talk governance, lipstick, and pigs.


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January 11, 2015, 06:24:01 PM
 #20024

Howabout this idea...

An asynchronous algorithm that links multiple side chains to Bitcoin in a floating peg. These side chains can offer many different capabilities that Bitcoin isn't designed for. The asynchronous protocol will protect Bitcoin should any of these side chains fail, but their success will make Bitcoin stronger and give it better scalability and liquidity. I already have much of the code for this protocol and it doesn't require any changes to Bitcoin. This protocol may have some bugs, but in time they should be worked out.
...it's called the market.

Drop the 'floating' part of the peg (usually) and it sounds like a winner to me.

Being to lazy to look up Maxwell's 2wp stuff, I did a stream of consciousness idea on one of these threads a month or two ago.  It used private keys as an intermediate currency and peg implementation between native Bitcoin and the back-end (and required no changes to core.)

By the way, if you want to know who's working on the deanonymization and economic tracking problems, mention exchanging private keys systematically and watch who shits a brick Smiley


I was making a light hearted point, but my agnosticism can be dispelled with an actual working demonstration on a test chain. I couldn't care less about deanonymization. I can barter and have made a good living at it.

Any significantly advanced cryptocurrency is indistinguishable from Ponzi Tulips.
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January 11, 2015, 06:35:00 PM
 #20025

Howabout this idea...

An asynchronous algorithm that links multiple side chains to Bitcoin in a floating peg. These side chains ...

Drop the 'floating' part of the peg (usually) and it sounds like a winner to me. ...

I was making a light hearted point, but my agnosticism can be dispelled with an actual working demonstration on a test chain.  ...

Ya, I saw what you did...even before being triggered by the red '4 comments since...' tag to glance at the thread evolution.  That's why I said "Drop the 'floating' part..."


cbeast
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Let's talk governance, lipstick, and pigs.


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January 11, 2015, 06:51:32 PM
 #20026

why I said "Drop the 'floating' part..."
"Floating peg" is an oxymoron.  It was intentional. Markets aren't going away. They will become decentralized, but not replaced by confederate functionaries. Altcoins will evolve into state sponsored fiat currencies while Bitcoin flourishes in free states and as a voluntary reserve currency.

Any significantly advanced cryptocurrency is indistinguishable from Ponzi Tulips.
tvbcof
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January 11, 2015, 08:48:51 PM
 #20027


 why I said "Drop the 'floating' part..."

"Floating peg" is an oxymoron. ...

Yes, no, sort of.

I would not necessarily shun an implementation which 'floated the peg' as long as there were valid reasons for doing so (likely associated with performance optimizations and subsequent reduced costs), and as long as I could be assured that the rate-of-change of the 're-pegging' had to remain reasonable and there was suitable transparency.

Such an implementation would not be my first choice, but I could certainly imagine using such a system for certain things.  Especially low-value, but I see all uses of sidechains being for 'low value' tasks in relative terms.


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January 12, 2015, 04:39:29 AM
 #20028

Five years since the invention of Bitcoin, currency as its first application has made significant inroads into the global financial system. Its disruptive effect has shaken up taken for granted notions of money and inflamed the imagination as to what money could be. Bitcoin is characterized as decentralized stateless currency. Some critics call it money with a Libertarian bent, designed to promote a new capitalism, while many economists are quick to judge its perceived deflationary design as a fatal flaw. Yet Bitcoin does not fit any existing paradigm. It can best be understood on its own merits within the framework through which the technology itself emerged.

http://falkvinge.net/2015/01/06/understanding-bitcoin-and-its-disruption-through-its-roots/#pq=ElxHAW
lunarboy
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January 12, 2015, 04:53:34 PM
 #20029

 Brent crude oil drops more than 5% to $47.27 a barrel.

meanwhile in greece rufusal to pay tax to the government and a possible bank run before the elections on the 25th of this month.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-01-12/greeks-stop-paying-taxes-ahead-elections-central-bank-scrambles-halt-bank-run-rumors
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January 12, 2015, 05:37:14 PM
 #20030

Sorry, I was not blessed with the necessary Faith.   Undecided

[already quoted a few times] [and not a completely baseless argument either]


Necro. My apologies (sort of).

You argument, in three words: network insufficiently decentralized.

The counter argument, in just one more word: according to which alternative?


First, it would be pointless imo to argue against the facts: mining is concentrated more than most expected, say, 2 years ago, and more than many are fully comfortable with.

Fact as well, however: none of those conjectured 'mining cartel attacks' ever took place, and there's good reason for that: they might be technically possible, but economically not viable for anyone who holds a stake in Bitcoin (hint: sunk cost in single purpose hardware is a "stake" as well) because of the resulting market reaction upon discovery (or even suspicion such attacks are taking place). They would therefore only be mounted from someone who is willing to pay for an attack on the network itself, and I have yet to see any evidence that this is a realistic vector consistent with what we know about existing hashpower and who paid to employ it.

Finally: the level of decentralization doesn't look so bad anymore when one considers the existing alternatives. Well, there's only one really: traditional banking. It's like you're blaming jet plane air-travel for being hopelessly outdated and slow: until there's a superior alternative, it is the de facto optimum wrt speed.

Not sure which Bitcoin wallet to use? I can highly recommend Electrum.
Electrum is an open-source lightweight client: user friendly, extremely fast, and one of the safest ways to store and use your bitcoins.
Executables are available on the Electrum homepage, so you can get a Bitcoin wallet up and running on your own computer in a few minutes.
cypherdoc
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January 12, 2015, 07:25:36 PM
 #20031

oil?  who the hell needs oil?  let alone natgas.  major storm brewing:



Dow Theory non-confirmation still in force:

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January 12, 2015, 07:32:06 PM
 #20032

One coin to rule them all:

MarketNeutral
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January 12, 2015, 07:41:12 PM
 #20033

Exciting trading ahead! Big profits, big losses. I can't wait to see how it all plays out.
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January 12, 2015, 07:47:16 PM
 #20034

the creeping fear is accelerating:

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January 12, 2015, 07:59:33 PM
 #20035

looks like i am gonna get my chance at reloading  Cheesy

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January 12, 2015, 08:19:36 PM
 #20036

...
First, it would be pointless imo to argue against the facts: mining is concentrated more than most expected, say, 2 years ago, and more than many are fully comfortable with.

Fact as well, however: none of those conjectured 'mining cartel attacks' ever took place, and there's good reason for that: they might be technically possible, but economically not viable for anyone who holds a stake in Bitcoin (hint: sunk cost in single purpose hardware is a "stake" as well) because of the resulting market reaction upon discovery (or even suspicion such attacks are taking place). They would therefore only be mounted from someone who is willing to pay for an attack on the network itself, and I have yet to see any evidence that this is a realistic vector consistent with what we know about existing hashpower and who paid to employ it.

Finally: the level of decentralization doesn't look so bad anymore when one considers the existing alternatives. Well, there's only one really: traditional banking. It's like you're blaming jet plane air-travel for being hopelessly outdated and slow: until there's a superior alternative, it is the de facto optimum wrt speed.

Bitcoin has clearly failed in an 'exchange' role as evidenced by still not needing to fiddle with the 7 tps transaction rate (1MB block size) and not being on a trajectory to need to do so any time soon.  The reason for this is abundantly clear and I've been saying so for years:  Bitcoin is simply not competitive in this role.

Bitcoin could be, however, extremely competitive in the role of a reserve currency.  But if we are relying on a foundation of 'subversion and failure could happen, but has not yet so maybe it never will', this detracts hugely from it's potential value as a reserve currency.

The pipe-dream of using Bitcoin as an exchange currency has unsurprisingly sucked in a school of intellectual herring, but more surprisingly also a bunch of VC predator food-chain class who I would have not expected to be such dullards.  This has been great for my pocketbook, but their utility is nearing the end-point.  Now is the time to appreciate the true value of Bitcoin and work toward preserving what remains of it and unrolling the damage done by centralization.  This is what sidechains mean to me.


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January 12, 2015, 08:28:05 PM
 #20037

Now is the time to appreciate the true value of Bitcoin and work toward preserving what remains of it and unrolling the damage done by centralization.  This is what sidechains mean to me.

Say what?
tvbcof
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January 12, 2015, 08:34:29 PM
 #20038

Now is the time to appreciate the true value of Bitcoin and work toward preserving what remains of it and unrolling the damage done by centralization.  This is what sidechains mean to me.

Say what?

Did I stutter?  'cause I don't think I did.


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January 12, 2015, 08:38:27 PM
 #20039

This is what sidechains mean to me.

Side chains are not even the slightest bit needed to use BTC as a reserve currency. It's nearly prefect the way it is. 7 tps is plenty for that. Probably an order of magnitude or two overkill in fact.


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100 satoshis -> ISO code


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January 12, 2015, 08:43:14 PM
 #20040

This is what sidechains mean to me.

Side chains are not even the slightest bit needed to use BTC as a reserve currency. It's nearly prefect the way it is. 7 tps is plenty for that. Probably an order of magnitude or two overkill in fact.

Unfortunately, the 7 tps is an old estimate, and the reality of large blocks is that 2400 tx is maximum, or 4 tps. However, even this is too large because some miners still turn out near empty blocks, and would do so even if the network had a severe backlog. So 3 tps is a more accurate working number.

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